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4.0.3a Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Fordring's Groupies (Updated: Dec 2, 2010)


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#41 Proudmoore

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 09:13 AM

#1 - one of the heals I got from Ardent Defender was a critical heal, I never looked at the numbers from it pre-patch but was it always capable of a critical heal? If not this is a nice addition


Yes, it's always been capable of a critical heal - although it wasn't a common event even before the patch.

#42 Kobor

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 08:39 PM

The Glyph of SoR is also amazing for threat generation. With full Vengeance, 3 charges of HoPo and the glyph my SoR was criting for 47k.


How will it go up for over 40K, raid buff is increasing it that much?
Was just trying on quest mobs in icc and without glyph ShoR hit 5K or 10K depend on Sacred Duty (I think) with 3 HoPo.
I don't have Crusade for first try, trying more survive talent yet.
The Rule of Law increase its crit even more, or if have Sacred Duty buff then RoL is not helping in its crit?
Did I miss something that increase its damage to that high?

#43 PKainus

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 09:16 PM

Which talent is better for threat between Grand Crusader and Reckoning? In the "Guardian" spec listed, you took 1/2 Reckoning and 2/2 Grand Crusader, whereas in the "Wogger" spec, you took 2/2 Reckoning and 1/2 Grand Crusader.

#44 willturnbad

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 09:40 PM

Parry Rating
As mentioned above Parry Rating will be gained from STR as well as items. According to Blizzard parry will "provide the same avoidance as Dodge" indicating for the purposes of avoidance parry and dodge are equivalent in terms of stat values.

I read the above blue post and wondered if is was true.

With 1400 dodge rating and 850 parry rating, I did this simple exercise.
I removed my item level 264 relic, which has equal amount of dodge and parry(34 of each)
The World of Warcraft Armory


My dodge fell from 27.56% to 27.21% a .35% loss in mitigation.
My parry fell from 19.72% to 19.06% a .66% loss in mitigation, even though my dodge should be deeper into diminishing returns if the above post was correct.

There is chance, I suppose that they will change this later. But for now it doesn't appear to be true.

For now gemming for parry to fill socket bonuses still looks bad.

#45 Handyhoof

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 10:05 PM

Reverse that. When you add 34 rating of both, your dodge only goes up a little because of DR. Your parry increases much more because it diminishes less. I.e. it's correct.

#46 willturnbad

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 01:46 AM

Thanks, I see that now, I should have been looking at putting the relic in.

I do have another one I was wondering about.
Trying to determine if I should go 102.4 with the block value being 30% now with a chance for critical blocks.
I haven't found out the value of a critical block so for now I assumed 30%.

If I start with
27.56% dodge
19.72% parry
93.22% unhittable, with SoR proc

Then I reforged to get my block to unhittable, ( I over shot it but this is just a math test).

I ended with
24.91% dodge
18.82% parry
103.17% unhittable

So my dodge + parry, before is 47.28, after is 43.73. This means I am losing 3.55% DR
My unhittable went up and over by 9.95%
Since that is all block value... 9.95 x 30% = 2.98%DR

Assuming I'm looking at this the right way, I don't think I can decide on whether to reforge to 102.4.
With out knowing how critical block works since the DR is pretty close. Opinions?

#47 Rurahk

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 04:27 AM

Thanks, I see that now, I should have been looking at putting the relic in.

I do have another one I was wondering about.
Trying to determine if I should go 102.4 with the block value being 30% now with a chance for critical blocks.
I haven't found out the value of a critical block so for now I assumed 30%.

...

Assuming I'm looking at this the right way, I don't think I can decide on whether to reforge to 102.4.
With out knowing how critical block works since the DR is pretty close. Opinions?


Regardless of critcial block, from what I understand about being blocked capped, it's not the damage reduction (or it's not only the DR) but it's the estimated health and time to live. If you're not blocked capped, you could get unlucky and not block several attacks in a row, reducing your EH and TTL. In essence, being block capped adds block DR to your health pool - if I understand the theory correctly. Also, don't forget the shield block value meta. While it's only 1% in Wrath, the Cata version will be 5% SBV Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond.

#48 cardnialsyn

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 06:17 AM

Why is CS always listed as a key ability for us?
Against the boss dummy, my CS was hitting for about 1.2k (all physical) while my HoR was hitting for about 400 physical and 1k holy.
Shouldn't we choose HoR over CS even against single targets?



I am wondering if this might have something to do with the actual weapon damage of the weapon. Since slower speed weapons will have a higher damage than a faster weapon even though the DPS would be the same if as long as the iLevel is the same. With CS being based solely off weapon damage and HotR being based only partially off weapon damage is it possible that with the faster speed weapons that HotR might actually do more damage than CS? I will try to get my hands on a slower weapon to test this out as soon as i can.

#49 Darthpred

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 07:33 AM

How will it go up for over 40K, raid buff is increasing it that much?
Was just trying on quest mobs in icc and without glyph ShoR hit 5K or 10K depend on Sacred Duty (I think) with 3 HoPo.
I don't have Crusade for first try, trying more survive talent yet.
The Rule of Law increase its crit even more, or if have Sacred Duty buff then RoL is not helping in its crit?
Did I miss something that increase its damage to that high?

It scales with AP (hit on 120% of AP with 3 HoPo) and it this way it gets large benefit from Vengeance.
Lets say you get 3k AP unbuffed. SotR will hit for 3.6k.
Now lets look at this in raid on boss fight. You gain 5% of incoming damage as AP up to 10% of your maximum health. Lets say you got 85k hp with ICC buff. 10% is 8.5k. So your AP will become 3+8.5=11.5k after reasonable time in fight. 120% of that is 13.8k. This is 3.83 times harder hit. I didn't count such things as BoM, BoK and other +stat, +AP and +damage buffs (+damage portion of ICC buff for example). So with those increases SotR may hit up to ~24-26k non critical. Crits will be ~48-52k or so.

#50 Nakari

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:22 AM

*In a raid environment with a spell hit debuff applied.

More specifically, when Melee hit capped, you have a total of 15.5% spell hit (including our 6% bonus). You still need a bit more to cap taunt, unfortunately.


There are no spell hit debuffs anymore.

Also, the hit rating cap in the opening post (263) is no longer correct, the rating conversions changed a bit with 4.0. The new melee hit rating cap is 246.

#51 Daurs

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:29 PM

Why does Judge come infront of AS in your priority list? Yes, the first time its probably better to get the debuffs / buffs up, but they last 1 minute / 20 seconds / 10 seconds (mana really isnt an issue at all atleast at 80), so it's not nescessary to use it every CD or even close to it. Avengers shield, atleast for me, does over double the threat than what judgement does, also Grand crusader procs go to waste more often if you preferr judge over AS. Has anyone simmed this or what is the assumption that judge is better than AS based on?

#52 talchas

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:33 PM

Yes it has been simmed, see theck's post over on maintankadin: Rotation Simulation. My understanding is that AS>J tends to make clashes in the long run and end up with you having more empty GCDs (although not by much).

#53 Kasi

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:50 PM

I think the main idea is that it is a 939 rotation and thus you need 3 things to settle around the crusader strike/HotR. One should always be judging, given the buff it gives to SotR. One as well should always be AS because of the huge damage/threat it does. The third of course is obviously SotR. However due to the cooldown of AS you will only be able to get in a consecrate or HW every other cycle.

Then you have to factor in GC procs. Those will allow one to use more AS at the expense of HW or Cons. Do that because the damage and threat is vastly higher. Theck has figured out the math, but judgement should never be skipped because of the damage/threat bonus it gives shield.

The thing that throws things for a loop though is Hammer of Wrath. Single target the damage on it is insane, and if the mob is living under 20% for a decent amount of time it is definitely worth it to do it on cooldown. SotR still hits harder though so one should still judge, but in a single target situation HoW should certainly replace AS. Even with the single target major glyph HoW will still hit a lot harder.

#54 Sahas

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:44 PM

As I understand it, J > As for three reasons: Sacred Duty procs, JotJ for mana refills and attack speed reduction.

SD procs contribute a rather large chunk of threat when ShoR is used, so even though you can contrive a pretty rare situation where you don't care about incoming damage and mana is not an issue, back to back GrC procs shouldn't be taken over Judgement if only for taking SD procs into account.

This is all based on a single target scenario assumption. I regularly prioritize GrC procs on aoe packs with unglyphed AS.

#55 Khaelarys

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:20 PM

As I understand it, J > As for three reasons: Sacred Duty procs, JotJ for mana refills and attack speed reduction.

Assuming you don't care about reducing incoming damage or mana, it would be fine to prioritize AS (especially glyphed) over judgement, however in reality, mana and survivability are concerns ,so it's best to put judgement first. Beyond that, SD procs contribute a rather large chunk of threat when ShoR is used, so even though you can contrive a pretty rare situation where you don't care about incoming damage and mana is not an issue, back to back GrC procs shouldn't be taken over Judgement if only for taking SD procs into account.

This is all based on a single target scenario assumption. I regularly prioritize GrC procs on aoe packs with unglyphed AS.


Are they really a concern yet? I adapted clcRet to work for prot, I do have better threat when I changed my priority from J > AS to AS > J. Mana for me, and my healers, just doesn't seem to be much of an issue yet.

#56 Alterra

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:08 PM

A quick note to update: Ratings requirements to cap melee hit and dodge-cap expertise have changed in 4.0.1 from WotLK and has been tested here. Hit has gone down to 246 rating to cap for melee. Expertise is currently at 172 rating to cap for dodge.

#57 Wrathblood

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:24 AM

I've been intrigued by the WoG build for prot paladins, and the additional survivability it provides, but have been concerned about the hit to threat. I've done some initial, relatively napkin-y math and the results were interesting so I figured I'd post it.

Conditions:
- Used stats used by Zarko in his thread on the WoW tanking forum on expected stats at level 85 near the end of the first tier of raiding and a Soul Blade
- 939 rotation (priority: WoG or ShoR at 3 HoPo, Judgement, AS, HW, Cons), using SoT vs SoI
- Reasonably standard spec for base case and a WoG build for the Wogger
- Glyph differences: ShoR vs WoG and Seal of Truth vs Seal of Insight

There were a number of other things that I wasn't 100% sure of but made assumptions on.
Assumptions:
- Seal of Insight has a 50% proc rate on all melee attacks,
- 2 sec swing time full raid buffed
- Steady Vengeance at ~75% max (10k bonus AP)

ShoR vs WoG
ShoR does an INCREDIBLE amount of threat when you're scaled up, to the extent that virtually everything else is filler. Weighted average hit (including crits, talents, etc) is a little over 100k threat. When cast every 10.5 seconds, the glyph of ShoR, by itself, is worth ~1k tps.

Needless to say, WoG can't compete with this. At its best, assuming 0% overhealing, WoG will put out an average of ~33k threat or a little less than 1/3 what ShoR does. Additionally, its more "vulnerable" and is obviously hurt by overhealing.

While in theory GbtL turns WoG overheals into shields, saving some of the lost threat (the shield generates 1/4 the threat of actual healing), in practice, the WoG lands before the PofI heal and the PotI heal (which does not turn into a shield) is the first healing lost to overhealing and is a little under 25% of healing done. Its not exactly realistic, but as an example, with a flat 30% overhealing, the PotI heal would be completely lost and generate zero threat, and of the ~10k healing threat lost, you'd at best salvage a few hundred points of shield threat.

The reason for the gap between the two is mostly scaling. SHoR scales with 120% AP, which ramps up dramatically with better gear and, obviously, Vengeance. WoG only scales with spell power, and only 0.22 at that, so it gets slightly better with better gear, but is helped not at all by Vengeance. Also, SD obviously plays a strong helping role for ShoR.

Starting with no Vengeance and no SD, SHoR averages barely over 30k threat, doing comparable or even slightly less threat than a 0% overheal WoG. Adding in Vengeance increases it 110% or so, and then SD gets it the rest of the way.

SoT vs SoI
I'm less confident in these numbers, but I had Seal damage + Censure coming in at roughly ~1800 damage/autoattack (once fully stacked up), good for ~2700 tps. During the first 10 seconds (assuming you could somehow start with +10k in AP from Vengeance), you're doing a whopping 900 tps on average as the Seal damage hasn't kicked in and Censure is still stacking up.

SoI says it scales with 15% of AP, but I found it to be more like 19% which would be good for 3.6k heals (including glyph). I'm fairly unsure of this, but some testing suggested that SoI will proc of any melee attack, including auto-attacks, CS, HotR, and Judgment, (and ShoR) but not AS, HW, or Consecration (or WoG). The exact number of procs depends on how your rotation plays out but I found the average to be close to an SoI proc per auto-attack, giving ~2,700 tps with 0% overheal and 1,800 tps with 30% overheal.

I was a little startled by how close these numbers turned out. Assuming 30% overhealing, 900 tps seems like a mild price to pay for 1200 free hps on the tank, particularly considering SoI actually outthreats SoT using almost any assumption over the first 10 seconds of a fight (apparently by far the diciest part of a pull). Also, unless you take firm advantage of EG procs, SoI actually outheals WoG in hps.

The biggest question is how much value the seriously overbudget glyph of SoT brings over the glyph of SoI (ballpark, assuming WoG casts, I put SoI at about 350 tps and SoT at a little under 1,000 tps for a next change of ~700 tps, but it depends on gearing).

Initial Thoughts
There are still some things to work on, most obviously the impact of EG procs (which, since you're replacing abilities that generally scale with AP with an ability that doesn't, I think the tps gain will be fairly modest. I'm not done yet, but WoG is getting killed so badly that its hard to see this making up the difference). However, a couple things are really clear.

First and most importantly, because of Vengeance, things that scale with AP end up crushing things that don't. For example, HW doesn't currently scale with AP at all. If this isn't changed, I don't see it remaining relevant for very long. WoG is in the same boat. Its awesome in 5-mans, and is hanging on by its fingernails at the end of the first tier. Unless its scaling changes, it won't even be in SHoR's zipcode after that.

The extent to which abilities scale with AP is also obviously really important. Over the course of ~30 seconds, +10k AP from Vengeance will add a total of 3,200 damage to Consecrate damage, while it will add 36,000 damage to your ShoR's. That gap will only get bigger as gear improves and that's going to impact our choice of abilities; Consecrate will eventually pass HW even for single targets eventually.

Second, turns out SoI scales with AP roughly evenly with SoT which is why it holds up so well. In fact, if you were to ditch WoG and go with ShoR, I think you'd increase the value of SoI by 14% or so. This might be worth examining in greater depth.

Conclusion
SHoR wrecks WoG, but SoI arguably holds its own against SoT, and its probably worth fiddling with to find if any talents provide healing cheaply enough in terms of lost threat to be worth taking. However, a close eye needs to be kept on the results of raid testing.

If raid tanks are indeed keeping up close to 100% Vengeance, then I'm underestimating(!) the impact on AP scaling abilities. On the other hand, if Vengeance keeps scaling that way it is now, threat may be a complete non-issue (after the first 30 seconds or so) and the trade-off will be healing/survivability vs the substantial dps contributed by the tank (I find this extremely unlikely, but as I said, it needs to be watched).

#58 Theck

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 01:59 PM

Just a couple comments for you Wrathblood:

ShoR is actually cast every 9 seconds, not 10.5 (you mentioned this when you noted that the ShoR glyph is worth about 1k TPS):

CS-X-CS-X-CS-ShoR-(repeat)

I'm not sure if this was just a typo though, since 1k TPS roughly matches the estimates I get by looking at my parses.

I should also note that the rotation isn't actually 9 seconds, it's a little longer due to ShoR avoids. If you cap hit and expertise (hard-cap) that will bring it down to 9 seconds. Below either of the caps the rotation gets a little longer, though in practice this is really only about 10-15% of a GCD (and thus less than 200 ms).


Another thought for the WoG rotation is that you wouldn't have to prioritize Judgement as highly, since SD procs are irrelevant. So you might be able to narrow the gap a little with greater utilization of Grand Crusader procs.

#59 Wrathblood

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:58 PM

Thanks for the comments from folks, much appreciated.

It was suggested that the proc rate on SoI might be a fair bit higher than I'm assuming since its a 2.6 speed weapon. Has anyone tested its mechanics in Cata? I hunted around a bit and was surprised to not be able to find anything. I did a few brief tests but it was only to ballpark the proc level. Really need to put in a couple thousand swings plus testing the specials to be confident and I keep hoping that someone else has already done it.

Theck,

You're of course correct on the rotation length. I was fiddling with that paragraph last and my brain betrayed me, telling me I had forgotten to add in another GCD, when I had done the math assuming a 9 second rotation time. Your point on rotations actually being longer due to latency and avoidance is a good point which I entirely failed to account for (other than generally recognizing it would be an issue with EG procs).

Making SD irrelevant is a tricky one. Certainly, downgrading J makes it less costly to use GC and EG procs, but I start running into conceptual problems as to what constitutes "sufficient" threat. The impact of SD on threat generation is ginormous (I have SD's contribution to threat as being only a little less than WoG's total threat generation) which is part of the reason the gap in threat between SHoR and WoG is so gigantically ginormous.

I would assume Blizzard wants to keep threat relevant, but ShoR is such a huge chunk of threat that with the current implementation of Vengeance, its hard to see how you could keep it relevant and swap out SHoR for WoG. I strongly suspect that Vengeance is going to get nerfed pretty hard or perhaps its scaling with certain abilities, but we'll have to see what form those changes take, or even if they occur.

My suspicion is that Blizz will bring Vengeance in line, so the real question ends up being: how do we tweak to get the most survivability boost at the least threat cost? Obviously you can lead off with SHoR when threat is questionable and switch to WoG when things are firmer, but what I'm trying to figure out now is: which trade-offs are the most efficient?

Trading away SD would help a pure WoG build, but the alternative use for those talent point would be something awful like Arbiter of the Light. As a result you really wouldn't have to cast ShoR very many times for the benefit of SD to justify those talent points especially when the value would likely be delivered at a time when threat was at a premium rather than evenly spread over the fight.

On the other hand, if you're over the soft exp cap already thus somewhat reducing the cost of losing glyph of SoT, then swapping from SoT to SoI looks surprisingly attractive plus frees up a glyph slot for SoI or perhaps WoG.

Edit - Grammar, comprehensibility, etc.

#60 Theck

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 03:22 PM

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that we drop Sacred Duty as a talent.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought your WoG calculation replaced every ShoR with WoG. In that case, Sacred Duty isn't doing anything, and prioritizing Judgement over AS loses a lot of its potency.

In other words: keep the talent for sure, but consider prioritizing AS over Judgement if you've switched into "survival mode" and are just chain-casting WoG every 9 seconds as your holy power dump.

If you're alternating between WoG and ShoR, I'd expect that J>AS is still worthwhile. You could even imagine choosing your finisher based on it - finish with ShoR if you have an SD proc and WoG if you don't.

Anyway, I have no clue if AS>J will net you an actual increase in a WoG-only rotation. It still has the potential to create empty GCDs, which is one of the reasons it falls behind in the ShoR rotation (SD being the other major reason). But without SD propping up your damage, I wouldn't be surprised if GC procs are enough to make up for the empty GCDs you can't fill with J/HW/Cons.




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