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[BETA] Resto Discussion


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#221 Kluian

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:15 PM

Most of the over healing I saw in beta raids came from LB / rejuv ticks on the tanks from the periodic points of them being topped off. Otherwise I was being overly cautious to not waste mana.

Personally I think blizzard needs to change mastery for healers if they don't benefit from it nearly 100% of the time, like haste and crit. It at least needs to be clear that it is equivalent to crit value. The druid version is proving to have a different value depending on the size of the group. As a 25 man raider I really don't want to see any of it on my gear if I can avoid it.

#222 Hamlet

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:44 AM

New sheet update. Only really minor changes, mostly just keeping things parallel with the WC updates. Added a separate Int category for proc-based Int that doesn't improve total mana pool (for examining things like Engineering).

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#223 Mesitara

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:01 AM

In analysis of Moonglow vs Furor, was the effect of metagem (int + max mana increase) included?

#224 Greentouch

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:21 PM

I was looking around for a good comparison of profession bonuses in Cata so I can decide on what the ideal ones for me are. And I couldn't find one, so I made one. If I missed anything, even minor, pm me and I'll add it. And if anyone knows the inscription bonus I couldn't find it.

My conclusion is that I at least will be Eng/Alc. However Herbalism is looking really nice and I like being able to herb in flight form while watching tv, so the increased justification is nice.

  • Blacksmithing
    2 gem slots (Assume 80 int now, when getting in range of the 6th RJ these might switch to haste).
    Full flexibility to support off specs.

  • Leatherworking
    130 int vs 65 haste or crit, 50 spirit. If you value haste the same as Int, which we might at certain points, its only 65 int, one of the worst professions.
    Reduced flexibility, only bonuses to Int/Agi/Stam.
    Cheap leg kits.

  • Tailoring
    60 sec internal cooldown, 35% proc chance, 800 mana restored --800/60*5 = ~66,67 mana per 5 (MP5). This would equal 133.34 spirit, which is actually pretty good.
    I assume that's what we'd use for quite awhile, the other is 580 spellpower (NOT int) for 15 seconds, and 1000 AP.
    Obviously reduced flexibility, and I don't see any bonus for a tank.

  • Alchemy
    80 Int (I think).
    Raises the minimum on the mysterious pot, "Use: Restores 1 to 15000 health and 1 to 15000 mana. (1 Min Cooldown)" Making it much more usable. It can also crit.
    However in most cases I believe I'd use Potion of Concentration: "Use: restore up to 22000 mana over 10 sec, defenseless until their concentration is broken. (1 Min Cooldown)" (edited down) not sure if it will benefit from mixology, probably not, but its reliably the most mana, (unless mysterious crits I guess, which it can) and I never had a problem sneaking in the 10 second channel on Beta.

    Longer duration on all flasks/elixirs, Excellent flexibility if you include using elixirs. Apparently its the best tanking prof, because you can get both an armor and mastery elixir, and the bonuses to each.

    Starter trinket.
    Lifebound Alchemist Stone:
    "+380 Stamina
    Blue Socket
    Socket Bonus: +10 Critical Strike Rating
    Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 213.
    Equip: Increases the effect that healing and mana potions have on the wearer by 40%. This effect does not stack."

    So 20 int, 20 spirit, 10 crit, 213 mastery, a good portion of which can be reforged, and the pot bonus. Not sure if it works with either or both of the above pots. And the Stam isn't completely useless. Obviously a very nice trinket for tank offspecs, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a better quest or other easily obtainable starter trinket for resto. (The best 2 I've seen were the Darkmoon card, and the Achaeology trinket, though the latter is hardly easy unless you're stupid lucky)

    Vial of the Sands, Turn into a Ride-able dragon!

  • Enchanting
    80 int
    Ring enchants, 40 each of Int/agi/str, and 60 Stam

  • Engineering
    Perfectly itemized epic helm, you choose the secondary stats. (great for 1st tier, who knows if they'll upgrade though)
    Synapse Springs: On average, the gloves will grant 480 int * 12 seconds uptime / 60 seconds cooldown = 96 intellect passive. This is the most SP you can get, I believe, but an int proc is less regen then passive because you don't have the initially larger mana pool. You could time it for when you get a +500 power torrent proc, and then pop innervate though!

    Grounded Plasma Shield = 16200-19800 shield, Cd unknown, possible misfires, including an aoe taunt? YIKES! Depending on if it can misfire in a raid and what the chances are it could be anywhere from useless to very nice.
    And of course, Parachute, Rocket boots (no longer reliable), wormholes, mailbox, jeeves, Invisibility (out of combat), mounts/pets, other cool stuff.

  • Inscription
    Assuming comparable stat bonus, can't find the Cata bonus for it.

  • Jewelcrafting
    81 int
    Full Flexibility

  • Herbalism
    480 haste for 20 seconds, 2 min cd = 80 passive haste. But, usable when you need it,
    and stack-able with other effects for an insane amount of hot ticks during key phases.

  • Mining
    Still useless except for tanks.

  • Skinning
    /yawn 80 crit


#225 Hamlet

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:36 PM

I've been looking into it for the guide. But briefly:
--LW best, since it replaces a non-Int enchant.
--Engineering uncertain, since we don't know the fate of Nitros exactly. But otherwise, slightly weaker than others due to the Int being in proc form.
--JC/BS/Insc/Ench/Alch all equal at 80 Int.
--Tailoring weak, unless they really shortened the cooldown on Lightweave.

I'm mostly focusing on permanent bonuses for now--various professions might have nice usable crafted gear as well in T11 or later, but that's not the main priority.

#226 Greentouch

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:46 PM

I've been looking into it for the guide. But briefly:
--LW best, since it replaces a non-Int enchant.
--Engineering uncertain, since we don't know the fate of Nitros exactly. But otherwise, slightly weaker than others due to the Int being in proc form.
--JC/BS/Insc/Ench/Alch all equal at 80 Int.
--Tailoring weak, unless they really shortened the cooldown on Lightweave.


I disagree. LW you are assuming haste is far less value then int, when it should be fairly close, if not equal or better at some points. Which would make it the weakest. Lw's value will fluctuate substantially based on how you value haste. From possibly best to worst.

Engineering don't forget you can time the proc for your innervates (even stacking with power torrent), adding value to it, and the helm will be a significant first tier bonus. And the belt shield may be very good.

I consider stat flexibility to be very important since most of us have off specs and might pvp, so those profs are hardly equal. Also Alch getting bonus regen from pots bumps it up above equal. (At the least on the mysterious pot) It was the best healer prof in wotlk because of the crazy pots I think.

Tailoring is the highest amount of mana you can get from a prof, which is pretty strong in the first tier or two.

#227 Hamlet

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:02 PM

The value of haste can vary, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to consider it more than maybe half as valuable as Int. Not to mention that Int confers mana and haste drains a little bit of mana. For Leatherworking to not be best, you have to value 65 haste more than 50 Int, which seems unjustified at the moment. I think the larger concern is that LW might be nerfed in some way since it's rather strong for every class and spec.

The Innervate's an interesting point, maybe I should math it out. There's good reason to prefer constant stats to proc stats for healing anything though, so it would still be a tough call. The belt is nice, yes, but it's no Nitro Boosts.

With the caveat that I write the guide for PvE raiding, stat flexibility does not seem like a high priority due to the dominance of Int. I would agree though that, if someone is picking a profession of scratch and already has LW, it would be a reason to favor JC over the other similar options.

Alch bonus regen from pots is an effect of a certain trinket, so I'm lumping it in the "temporary crafted items" box--might be a nice perk in an early tier. Crazy Alch's pots were actually a meaningful raid benefit in WLK, but I haven't seen anything like them on the list in Cata.

Admittedly I haven't looked into Darkglow much yet (I guess I should have before dropping Tailoring for LW on my main), but as a bonus that provides no throughput, it has a rather high hill to climb.

#228 Kluian

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:17 PM

Well when epic gems become available they'll have to re-evaluate professions again (otherwise BS is going to pull ahead of other professions). I'm guessing at that point the LW enchants willl either become equivalent or toned down.

#229 Greentouch

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:21 PM

Alch bonus regen from pots is an effect of a certain trinket, so I'm lumping it in the "temporary crafted items" box--might be a nice perk in an early tier. Crazy Alch's pots were actually a meaningful raid benefit in WLK, but I haven't seen anything like them on the list in Cata.

Admittedly I haven't looked into Darkglow much yet (I guess I should have before dropping Tailoring for LW on my main), but as a bonus that provides no throughput, it has a rather high hill to climb.


I wasn't meaning the trinkets effect, as I'm sure it will be replaced pretty darn quickly, alchemy skill will raise the minimum on the mysterious pots range, which would make it much more usable. And if that is the pot we use then it is a definite profession bonus.
Also the mysterious potion procs bonus pots, I know the crazy has procced a 2nd mana pot for me, as well as speed or wild magic, these effects, plus the fact that it can crit, no channel time, and Alchemy raises the minimum, could easily make it the pot of choice. The hp is also very nice, I bound my Crazy pot into an "oh sh*t" macro with healthstone and barkskin, which is a substantial amount of healing off the gcd.

This all matters because if we are using that as our pot, it's a bonus to Alchemy above and beyond all the other profs, if not then its merely tied with the others.

Ah found the blue:
"New Mysterious Potion created with common materials restores health and mana in a massively random range, as well as sometimes granting the benefit of another potion. The health and mana range is from 1-20,000 (nerfed to 1-15k) and is able to crit. The minimum amount restored, however, is scaled upwards by the Alchemy skill, making it a great choice for alchemists to keep for themselves. "

*I haven't found the amount it raises the minimum too, so until we have that information it will be hard to math out average gains from it vs the stable 22k mana at the cost of 10 second channel of the potion of concentration.

At 66,67 MP5, or 133.34 worth of spirit, tailoring is climbing that hill with substantially more item points then any other prof. Whether 133 spirit>80 Int is up to the individual mathy type who likes tailoring, I'm not a fan or it anyway.

On engineering, its worth noting that you get the equiv of 96 int from it. I would rate passive stats > stats on a cd as well for healing, but it IS more then the passive bonuses, which would in my opinion at least make them equal. And the fact that you can tie it to your innervate probably makes up for not having the initial mana pool.

#230 Hamlet

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:42 PM

Oh, that would be nice. If Mysterious is the new Crazy Alch's then that's a good bonus for Alch. The minimum only has to go up to 5000 to give the same 10000 mana average as a Mythical Mana, even before bonus procs.

Eng is a 96 Int mean, but it's worth less than "normal" Int because you don't get any increase to your total mana pool at the start of the fight. That makes it somewhat worse for mana purposes.

#231 Kluian

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 12:27 AM

If you use Engineering glove proc with innervate once during a fight, it makes up for your starting lost mana. It will be key to time it with a Power torrent proc too if mana is a concern. The mana gain differences between replenishment / revitalize should be similar unless you aren't using the glove proc on cooldown.

Assuming 10% increased mana from Furor: (8/2/31 spec)

80 int * 1.05 * 1.06 = 1335.6 mana * 1.1 = ~1470 higher starting mana with most normal starting professions.

(480 int - 80 int) = 400 Int gain * 1.05 * 1.06 = 6678 mana * 1.1 = 7346 higher max mana pool

20% of 7346 = 1469 more mana gained during innervate.

So if you end up using Innervate/glove more than once during a fight (which you most likely will), the gains even that much better. The engineer glove enchant adds an extra 42 MP / 5 over other professions as long as innervate's are tied with the use.




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