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[BETA] Resto Discussion


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#41 Kluian

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:45 PM

Halfus isn't a pushover in 25 man. Some of the dragons nearly one shot tanks. Rdruids are very potent against the drake that only allows instant casts.

#42 shibou

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 12:34 AM

Unless something changes, 4 piece pvp will probably be bis for pve. 400 int and 2 secs off swiftmend vs 320 or so spi and I don't even remember what the 2 piece bonus is.

#43 Playered

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 01:40 AM

Unless something changes, 4 piece pvp will probably be bis for pve. 400 int and 2 secs off swiftmend vs 320 or so spi and I don't even remember what the 2 piece bonus is.


You would not use the PvP chest as it has no bonus stats except Resil and you only need 4 parts so you would end up with:
PvP 365 set - 470 Int (+400 Int due to set bonuses = 970 total), 102 Sta, 172 Crit, 32 Mastery with -2 sec on SM.
PvE 359 set - 595 Spi (+540 Spi due to set bonus = 1135 total), 178 Haste and 5% bonus crit on LB.

The mana regeneration between the extra Int/Spi works out roughly equal using a 7/3/31 (regen focused) spec but you have a potentially better set bonus and more SP. You also have reforging to throw into the mix however which complicates things but generally favors the PvE set due to not being able to lower Resil and a larger pool of stats to reduce.


If nothing else it highlights the reason to keep regeneration mechanics based off Spirit rather than max mana (I guess Blizzard haven't learned this after all this time). I would say the best way to go about this would be to make Revitalize trigger a buff boosting our Meditation by a further 50% for 6 seconds instead of 3% max mana but as it is 3am that could be wrong and that excludes balance issues for PvP.

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#44 Anaram

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:47 AM

Is there currently no way to cast Lifebloom with a macro then (because it picks up the Tree version)? Or with Clique for that matter?


Not sure if this problem is still current... with clique you can just drag lifebloom on your bars, then with clique make it click that button which should work both in and out of tol.

#45 Greentouch

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 12:23 PM

Not sure if this problem is still current... with clique you can just drag lifebloom on your bars, then with clique make it click that button which should work both in and out of tol.


My healing binds via Vuhdo are exactly the same as live atm, but lifebloom is a macro instead of spell. The macro is this:

/target vuhdo
/click ActionButton12
/targetlasttarget

and you need to have lifebloom on the bar at spot 12 (or w/e).

I also killed both bosses pretty easily, I'm kind of surprised you went with total haste setup, Mana is far from irrelevant, and SP is never irrelevant, I kinda figured everyone would be int gemming.

Reforging wise its Haste>Mastery>Crit>Spirit. I was considering re setting up my gear a bit less recklessly to get some spirit back and just went for it instead. I definitely needed to watch mana, but as long as you aren't spamming Regrowth or recklessly overhealing it's quite doable. Also get used to finding a good spot to use potion of concentration! This will be our new potion for awhile. And obviously Int flasks. And I used the Hurricane weapon chant instead of w/e garbage chant it is that procs 200 spirit.

I am extremely unimpressed with spirit atm. I'm pretty sure I would lose it all for boomkin haste/crit/mastery gear. Consider this, 1 Rejuv, costs 3725 mana. Divide that by 12 for 310.4 mp5, which takes 620.8 Spirit. So it takes 620 frickin spirit to get 1 rejuv worth of mana a minute? That is like all the spirit on 4 pieces of gear.

I haven't run the math, but Haste/Mastery/Crit have to do more throughput then that... Spirit seems like a complete waste.

The brd boss was a pretty long encounter, and I was in blues, and I managed my mana. I'm pretty sure we'll get all the regen we need from int which is also substantial throughput, screw spirit, it seems to be wasted item points in the current state of it.

#46 Kluian

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 01:26 PM

That's why spirit needs to be better. It takes way to much spirit to make any noticeable difference from what I can tell. INT feels like a better regen stat for druids.

The 4 piece blue PvP set is better than heroic 5 man gear for early raiding. You should end up replacing it with T11 though, after upgrading 2 pieces at a time.

#47 RobotChicken

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:27 PM

As Playered mentioned, it's because they base a lot of regen mechanics around your max mana still, which is especially dangerous now that Intellect is the primary stat for all casters. They are probably going to have to do yet another complete redesign in order to fix that problem, though. If Spirit is too powerful, then you won't need a lot of it and you'll get really angry when it's on all your gear. If it's not powerful enough, you'll try to ignore it and just hope you don't run out of mana before everybody keels over.

#48 Kluian

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:34 PM

That's kind of why spirit is an annoying stat. It has no secondary benefit. So if you end up having too much you're wasting the stat value of it.

I don't think they'll change things around for druids concerning their mana until after Cata goes live. Druids have a huge mana return, but we also have to consume a lot of mana to keep up with the HPS of other healers who have much lower mana return.

#49 Playered

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:41 PM

Except you aren't wasting it because you can reforge off large chunks of it and take a couple of pieces of gear without Spirit too if you want. I would much rather we were based on needing to achieve a certain level of Spirit and then having the option to reforge/gear around staying at that point.


Are people who got to raid on the Beta finding that they are able to use WG/SM roughly on cooldown while essentially spamming RJ in between?

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#50 Kluian

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:51 PM

Except you aren't wasting it because you can reforge off large chunks of it and take a couple of pieces of gear without Spirit too if you want. I would much rather we were based on needing to achieve a certain level of Spirit and then having the option to reforge/gear around staying at that point.


Are people who got to raid on the Beta finding that they are able to use WG/SM roughly on cooldown while essentially spamming RJ in between?


You are wasting it if you gear a certain way before the fight. You don't know how much spirit you'll need for x fight until you actually do it. This value that you need could also change from fight to fight.

I was raiding 25 man encounters on Beta and I can tell you mana was an issue, I never went completely oom. I would use Swiftmend/WG on CD when there was aoe to heal. I would keep LB on the tank (using LB to refresh it). I would keep rejuv on all tanks, and cast it on sporatic dmg to the raid (or throwing it on WG targets if they needed more support). I wasn't as spam friendly as WotLK with it, but rejuv ended up being 30% of my healing most of the time.

I did not have a ton of spirit on my gear, and I was using the PvP set which has next to no spirit. Some of the premade blues they give you have spirit/mastery. So I would replace them for haste/crit items, and reforge crit of the gear to gain spirit. Spirit/haste items appear to be the best, but they are rare to come by in the starting gear. My MP / 5 self buffed was around 1500 in combat.

I am extremely unimpressed with spirit atm. I'm pretty sure I would lose it all for boomkin haste/crit/mastery gear. Consider this, 1 Rejuv, costs 3725 mana. Divide that by 12 for 310.4 mp5, which takes 620.8 Spirit. So it takes 620 frickin spirit to get 1 rejuv worth of mana a minute? That is like all the spirit on 4 pieces of gear.


I was curious to see what mana returns it would require if you soley used INT for the same purpose.

Assuming you have Furor (15% mana increase), GOTW (6% int) and Mark (5% int). Also assuming that revitalize procs once every 8 seconds. This is fairly forgiving. If you spend 3 points on Revitalize the average proc rate is 9 seconds if only using LB on a single target. Spamming rejuv throughout the raid can push it down to 6.5 seconds. So let's assume that Revitalize is procing on avg once every 8 seconds. That means you'll see 7.5 procs per minute.

3725 mana / 7.5 = 496.67, this is the mana return you need to see from each revitalize proc.

496.67 / 0.03 = 16,555 increased mana you need to cover that mana gained from revitalize proc

16,555 / 1.15 = 14,396 mana you need before furor is applied

14,396 / 15 = 959.73 int to cover that mana conversion

959.73 / 1.06 / 1.05 = 862.3 Int

So completing ignoring replenishment and innervate (and 2% increased mana meta), you need ~862 INT to gain the mana return from revitalize to cover 1 rejuv a minute (based on 8 second procs).

862 INT to gain the same mana return of 621 spirit. Where spirit gives us no increased healing and crit.

So ignoring everything outside of revitalize (mana tide included), Int is only about 40% worse than spirit for mana return, but with INT you gain spellpower and crit.

For fun if you say revitalize procs every 6.5 seconds then you only need ~700 int to cover the rejuv a minute cost. At that point Int and spirit are extremely close for mana return.

#51 Hamlet

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:58 PM

Int will pull ahead Spirit on pure MP5 value once you account for Replenishment, Innervate/Glyph, and added Revitalize procs from Rejuv. The spreadsheet lets you play with this pretty well.

One other thing to keep in mind (that's not even obvious on the sheet) is the total mana increase from Int. As in, not the MP5 effect from Revitalize, etc., but the actual fact that longevity increases directly with a larger mana pool. This makes Int far better than Spirit for mana purposes.

#52 Kluian

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:09 PM

Well on the bright side Int and Spirit don't ever compete for themselves on gear outside of gemming.

The problem comes to be, "Do I have enough Int to where spirit should be avoided on gear?

Also innervate glyph isn't working on Beta at the moment.

#53 Greentouch

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:30 PM

Are people who got to raid on the Beta finding that they are able to use WG/SM roughly on cooldown while essentially spamming RJ in between?


I was keeping my LB stack up at all times (with LB..) and using wild growth and swiftmend as needed. The "Acquiring Target" mechanic requires some quick focused Regrowths which was the only time I used that without ooc. And Yes I threw a rejuv on anyone needing heals. Since no one heal or hot heals anyone all the way, I did find I would roll hots 2-3 times sometimes, so I know I was getting good use out of Mastery. This was in 10 man, in 25 man, I would want specific healing assignments so I was in charge of say 1 ranged group, keeping Eff on the melee, and healing a tank. This would allow us best synergy with our Mastery thereby saving mana.

I was certainly not gcd locked or "spamming" there were times I was simply waiting for w/e was next. And squeezing in the 10 second channel of my potion of concentration wasn't all that hard.

I used TOL on Halfus during the lots of movement whirlwind phase, and on Omnitron purely to save mana. Mostly just spamming lb's around. And Innervate as early as possible and then again.

I really can't imagine any Cata gear setup that will let you ignore mana completely... I mean if we were haste capped you can burn 65 thousand mana in 10 seconds spamming Regrowth. Which is over half our current mana. In which time you would gain back around 5%.

I just think throughput stats are more helpful then Spirit. 1 rejuv heals for, I think a third max of somebody's life. So if you aren't overhealing with the throughput, then it will save you mana.

Here's the video of our kills! I'm the female troll with green hair, casting green spells, with Green in my name! You see me use the Potion of Concentration at 3:20, and 10:10. (You get the sleep animation over your head)

YouTube - Cata Beta Raid Test: Omnitron Defense System and Halfus Wyrmbreaker

Those bracers at the end? Aahh ya. Wearing em. World of Raids Forums -> Gallery -> Viewing image -> motsb.png

Not my first pick for stats, but Int is so good i-level will probably be the main determining factor.

#54 Greentouch

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:54 PM

Oh I was curious on one point. Does anyone know what the game uses to decide which stat you get from the goblin barbecue? I specifically noticed I got haste from it in the raid. Later last night I was talking to another druid on vent who had just copied a premade, and he was checking everything out, he said he got Int from it.

So I sat down and sure enough I was getting int every time. I would RATHER get int, though haste isn't bad obviously. I would guess either it randomly picks a stat that is useful to your talented spec, or it picks whichever stat you have the most of, or stack the most of, but some of the numbers didn't seem to make sense.

Just curious if anyone has tested to figure out exactly which mechanic it uses to pick the stat.

#55 Tecton

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:55 PM

For anyone stuck using the awful spirit proc weapon enchant you can get a Power Torrent enchant from the shard trader in Twilight Highlands which is a 500 spellpower proc. They also have some upgraded versions of the base enchants (i.e. a mastery/runspeed boot enchant, 20 stats on chest).

[edit] Corrected below. Just tested Power Torrent, and it can proc from HOT ticks, as well as actual casts. [/edit]

#56 manbearcat

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:05 PM

Empowered Touch still seems very much broken to me. It works if you're refreshing LB on yourself, but doesn't work if the LB is on another target - which as mentioned, is fairly useless.

#57 RobotChicken

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 12:15 AM

For anyone stuck using the awful spirit proc weapon enchant you can get a Power Torrent enchant from the shard trader in Twilight Highlands which is a 500 spellpower proc. They also have some upgraded versions of the base enchants (i.e. a mastery/runspeed boot enchant, 20 stats on chest).

[edit] Corrected below. Just tested Power Torrent, and it can proc from HOT ticks, as well as actual casts. [/edit]


I think if they upped it to something like 500 spirit or maybe even an instant mana gain it might be relatively decent. Still, good tip, I'll probably try it out next time there's a raid testing going on when I'm not raiding on Live.

#58 Hamlet

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 12:27 AM

Chimaeron is pretty fun for Resto. Kind of weird healing mechanic, but HoT's on tanks are great, there's a mechanic that plays into Efflorescence, and you even get to make use of the Tree Form Wrath damage bonus.

#59 Hoofhearted

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 01:04 AM

Also innervate glyph isn't working on Beta at the moment.

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#60 Kluian

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 01:59 AM

Wasn't working the other day!

Only thing I dislike about Chimaeron for resto druids is we have to use nourish to get people above 10k health and you probably won't have a hot on them.

But other than that it was an interesting healing fight kind of similar to Anub.




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