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[BETA] Balance Discussion


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#1 Carebare

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:46 AM

This thread is ONLY for BETA discussion. If it's on live, use the appropriate thread.
i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
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#2 Cdin

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 03:35 PM

I tested Sunfire a bit last night in the beta. It now seems to tick every two seconds and scales with haste. Unfortunately I didn't think to check the coefficients to see if they changed.
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#3 Treyce

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 06:32 PM

Testing some rotations on dummies and in heroics this morning. Mana issues have been greatly resolved, while i obviously am unable to test in a specific raid scenario, mana has gone to sub 2 mins worth of casting on a test dummy to 6.5 mins. As our mana pool increases, and with raid buffs / replenishment, it looks like we are in a much better place. This was in basic 333/ 346 gearing.


For those who are interested, troll druid forms are up, basically you are an orange moonkin from Hinterlands, debate as you will.

#4 ryd3l

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 06:23 AM

Testing some rotations on dummies and in heroics this morning. Mana issues have been greatly resolved, while i obviously am unable to test in a specific raid scenario, mana has gone to sub 2 mins worth of casting on a test dummy to 6.5 mins. As our mana pool increases, and with raid buffs / replenishment, it looks like we are in a much better place. This was in basic 333/ 346 gearing.


Did Heroic GrimBatol and Deadmines today and never went below 40% mana with replenishment and might without using innervate on myself (exept after dying obviously :P), ergo the need for mana managment in raids seems to be gone now

EDIT says, avgIlvl 346 with wildhammer exalted neck and belt :o

#5 Zanarhi

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:24 PM

Did the 10 man version of Baradin Hold last night and even feeding my innervates to the priest on cooldown my mana never went below 50%. Perhaps they went a bit far with the mana cost reductions?

#6 Kluian

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 07:38 PM

Did the 10 man version of Baradin Hold last night and even feeding my innervates to the priest on cooldown my mana never went below 50%. Perhaps they went a bit far with the mana cost reductions?


That is a fight where you are standing still pretty much the entire duration. You should have more eclipses proc during a fight like that over one where more movement is involved. Consider longer fights, and you'll definitely need to innervate yourself.

#7 Erdluf

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 07:51 PM

A lot would depend on the nature of the movement. If it is very short (move out of the void zone), you are replacing nukes with full-cost MF, and that burns mana almost three times as quickly. For longer periods of movement, you are replacing nukes with essentially free MF.

Also, WM use (or not) may make a large difference. In ten seconds, before Haste, you can cast 3.3 SF for 36.3% mana. Throw in WM and you have 3 SF + 3 WM for 66% base mana.

#8 Hamlet

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:38 PM

Put up a math post here on Glyph of Starsurge, since it's such a common question and not easy to model well. Slightly refined model will be in the sheet next time:
http://elitistjerks...._starsurge.html

#9 klüger

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

A lot would depend on the nature of the movement. If it is very short (move out of the void zone), you are replacing nukes with full-cost MF, and that burns mana almost three times as quickly. For longer periods of movement, you are replacing nukes with essentially free MF.

Also, WM use (or not) may make a large difference. In ten seconds, before Haste, you can cast 3.3 SF for 36.3% mana. Throw in WM and you have 3 SF + 3 WM for 66% base mana.


This is actually my biggest complaint about LS, how often will we get to use it @ 3 stacks?
But then again, how will you fix it so its not too good?

Atleast for PvE, it doesn't really matter if it does anything up to normal rotational dps, noone is gonna bother spamming moonfire for 5-15minute bossfights. So as long as its just slightly below normal rotation, that should be no concern.

For pvp, I dunno, it seems on paper like MF spam is gonna be the play anyways due to how pvp (arena) works, so maybe a change to one or two stacks or something won't be so bad.

#10 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:59 PM

For pvp, I dunno, it seems on paper like MF spam is gonna be the play anyways due to how pvp (arena) works, so maybe a change to one or two stacks or something won't be so bad.

Arenas won't even be coming back until Cataclysm and by then, we'll be having Rated BGs instead. I don't see this being much of a problem, personally.

#11 Poggen

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:57 PM

I just spent a good 20 minutes pouring 20M damage (averaging 15.4k DPS) into a dummy in Orgrimmar with my new self-buffed ilvl 359 premade rocking 6.5k SP 14.6% Haste, 17.9% Crit and 12,8 Mastery. In other words, once we get some decent gear our mana issues will dissapear completely. We are however rather dependent upon being able to innervate ourselves.

#12 Hamlet

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:59 PM

I know I've been quiet for a few days--mostly relaxing a bit on WoW stuff after the flurry of activity around Blizzcon and will probably just be trying to get the guides/sheets up to date for Cata launch at this point. But want to at least stop by and mention a few things I've thinking about that hadn't been mentioned on this thread or the 4.0.1 thread yet:

1) Which meta will be best? Chaotic currently has the odious blue>red requirement on the beta. So in order to use it, we have to shunt nearly all of the gemming off of red (our primary stat). Now, this is not necessarily as bad as it sounds, since socket bonuses are a much bigger deal than in WOTLK. Instead of the current 4/6/8 of a stat, socket bonuses on the beta are 10/20/30 stats (I think the point of this was to make gem choices interesting eve though red is now clearly the best for everyone).

Possibilities are:
Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft (allowing a different boot enchant)
Bracing Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft

Maybe the answer is easy, but I haven't tried working it out in the sheet yet (and figuring out the gem issue for Chaotic might require figuring out likely gemming at low levels of gear).

2) Do any other classes have a good model for multiple temporary haste procs? We're going to have NG, Hyperspeeds, and Berserking at least, and I wonder if there's something more accurate that valuing them all independently using average uptime. Just want to know how much this has already been done somewhere else.

#13 Zanarhi

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 08:59 PM

1) Which meta will be best? Chaotic currently has the odious blue>red requirement on the beta. So in order to use it, we have to shunt nearly all of the gemming off of red (our primary stat). Now, this is not necessarily as bad as it sounds, since socket bonuses are a much bigger deal than in WOTLK. Instead of the current 4/6/8 of a stat, socket bonuses on the beta are 10/20/30 stats (I think the point of this was to make gem choices interesting eve though red is now clearly the best for everyone).

Possibilities are:
Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft (allowing a different boot enchant)
Bracing Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft

Maybe the answer is easy, but I haven't tried working it out in the sheet yet (and figuring out the gem issue for Chaotic might require figuring out likely gemming at low levels of gear).


You seem to have missed Forlorn Shadowspirit Diamond. The 10% silence duration reduction may not be as useful as the other meta gem secondary effects but it comes with the easiest requirements. Right now the balance gear has only two socket bonuses worth matching, both of which are blue. Placing a purified in both the helm and legs blue sockets and a red in all others seems to be the best.

I have played around with numbers in the spreadsheet a bit as well as testing in game, it is just a dps loss losing so much Int trying to activate the new chaotic requirements.

#14 Roywyn

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 09:50 PM

1) Which meta will be best? [...] Now, this is not necessarily as bad as it sounds, since socket bonuses are a much bigger deal than in WOTLK.
Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft (allowing a different boot enchant)
Bracing Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft

Maybe the answer is easy, but I haven't tried working it out in the sheet yet (and figuring out the gem issue for Chaotic might require figuring out likely gemming at low levels of gear).

Fleet is mediocre since it has mastery while Ember has intellect. The difference in boot enchants too small to compensate (it's about half as good for mages).

Chaotic's new requirement hurts, you'll have to gem for <50% intellect and >50% ratings, as apposed to all intellect but 1-2. Since you don't seem to have anything that makes you favour crit (besides 200% from specialisation), Ember will compete with Chaotic in T11 gear with 10 sockets. More sockets lead to a harsher penalty while better gear reduces the difference between intellect and combat ratings.

Since you also follow/help mages: Frost favours Chaotic since half their spells auto-crit and mana is no isssue. Fire is not clear, since it has a huge crit multiplier (>310%, Ignite+Mastery) but also mana issues, Arcane favours Ember (200% crits) even without the extra mana, and Moonkin seem to be similar. Chaos has a great meta effect, the problem is that intellect is 2-3 times as good as any other combat rating (assuming you can hit cap from gearing/reforging). Which also makes gemming for blue/yellow with non-intellect bonuses pretty weak.

The best gemming for Chaotic to save you time is: 1 green in yellow. Fill 1 green + 1 red as long as you have 1 yellow and 1 red. Fill the rest with purple. (If you have more than 1 more yellow than red, fill the yellows with good sockets first. If there are any yellows with good bonuses remaining, try filling them manually, but it's likely not worth it.)


[Edit]: Ah, I thought there was an actual change, thanks for the explanation. We technically have 150% crits and a 1.33 multiplier. That explains why we're at ~206% (205.485%) while you may still benefit from the old 209% through your +100% bonus. Chaotic may pull ahead then, but it would be interesting to see how much of the possible extra damage is lost to inferior gemming.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#15 Hamlet

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 09:54 PM

Remember that Chaotic is 50% better for Moonkin than for pure casters, because we still get a 209% bonus from stacking Chaotic with the Moonfury talent, while they only get a 206% bonus from using Chaotic with their base 200% crits.

#16 Cdin

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:41 PM

A couple of things:

1. I did some preliminary calcs using Hamlets lvl 80 spreadsheet. At our current ICC gear levels Chaotic is still a clear winner, but obviously our current gear levels aren't representative of what we will see in T11 gear. I tried down grading it to the type of gear we had in T7. And the chaotic still came out ahead, but not as dramatically.

The key to remember here is scaling. The Chaotic Diamond scales much better as our gear improves, but the penalty for the Chaotic gets bigger as well. In my ICC gear I have 18 gem sockets. A hypothetical T11 gear set I came up with had 12. Plus at T11 we will be using superior quality gems instead of epic gems.

Right now I'm confident that the Chaotic will still be the gem of choice, but I would like to look at it using a level 85 model, and with 85 gear. Hamlet, do you have a level 85 spreadsheet around here still? If so, could you point it out? I'm having a hard time finding it.

2. One of my big worries with this new meta requirement was that it would complicate gemming dramatically, but i don't think it's as bad as I originally thought. Gemming will actually be pretty simple.

Belt Buckle Prismatic: Sparkling or Rigid Blue or Lightning Green
Other Prismatic: Purified/Veiled
Red: Purified/Veiled
Blue: Purified/Veiled
Yellow: Quick, or what ever secondary stat is favored at the moment

If you put one blue or green gem in a prismatic socket, then put all purples in red, blue and other prismatic sockets and all yellows in the yellow sockets then you fit the meta requirement easily, and maximize your gem stats.
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#17 Roywyn

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:05 PM

1. I did some preliminary calcs using Hamlets lvl 80 spreadsheet. At our current ICC gear levels Chaotic is still a clear winner, but obviously our current gear levels aren't representative of what we will see in T11 gear. I tried down grading it to the type of gear we had in T7. And the chaotic still came out ahead, but not as dramatically.

The key to remember here is scaling. The Chaotic Diamond scales much better as our gear improves, but the penalty for the Chaotic gets bigger as well. In my ICC gear I have 18 gem sockets. A hypothetical T11 gear set I came up with had 12. Plus at T11 we will be using superior quality gems instead of epic gems.

Right now I'm confident that the Chaotic will still be the gem of choice, but I would like to look at it using a level 85 model, and with 85 gear. Hamlet, do you have a level 85 spreadsheet around here still? If so, could you point it out? I'm having a hard time finding it.

2. [...] If you put one blue or green gem in a prismatic socket, then put all purples in red, blue and other prismatic sockets and all yellows in the yellow sockets then you fit the meta requirement easily, and maximize your gem stats.

That's actually not the best way to deal with yellow sockets, assuming you are near hit cap (some spirit pieces and mass reforging should get you close) and intellect is better than crit/haste/mastery. The best way is placing a green gem into a yellow socket while placing a red gem into a red socket. This would give you 40 int + 40 rating from two yellow + red sockets, while your method would use a yellow + purple gem for 20 int + 60 rating. Since this method required a red socket for each yellow socket, it may get complicated when having 2 more yellow than red+prismatic combined (the initial green gem may also go to a yellow socket). If you have at least 2 more yellow than red+prismatic, use the above method and fill up the best sockets bonuses first. You'll have only yellow and blue sockets left then. If the socket bonus is good enough (remember, you used up the sockets with good bonuses first) use a yellow, otherwise a purple gem. Blue sockets naturally get filled with purple gems.

Your T7 test at level 80 is a good indication. Ratings will be worse at 85 though since their requirement was multipled by 4 (and T11 has nearly 4 times the ratings of T7) but base damage was only multiplied by ~2. Scaling is awkward since better gear means (usually) more sockets and at some point epic gems, but also that intellect won't be that much better than ratings in high-end gear (in T6/T10, spellpower and haste were pretty close compared to T4/T7). Living in interesting times :monocle:
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#18 Hamlet

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:20 PM

The last L85 sheet I uploaded was here:
http://elitistjerks....p7/#post1758861

I don't remember what updates I've made since I moved to L80 for a bit. I'll go back to uploading L85 values now that we're getting closer.

-----

Gemming:
You can improve on that gemming (Assuming Chaotic is still best). Keeping in mind that a purple gem is better than a yellow (i.e. one half-gem's worth of Int and on half-gem's worth of Spirit is worth more than two half-gem's worth of haste or another secondary stat), you want to cram in as much red and blue as possible. Moreover, you can use a red and a green gem to get two half-gem's worth of Int for only one half-gem's worth of Spirit, while still maintaining parity for the meta requirement.

A complicating factor is the hit cap. The above (and all analysis of gems so far really) assumes stats are completely fungible because you can just reforge to reach hit cap at a 1:1 exchange. But we're talking about having quite a lot of blue in our gems, which might tighten the cap (I haven't checked how close an issue it is in T11 gear, but it will be eventually). You may have to start converting blue/red pairs of half-gems into yellow.

Summing up. Here is, I think, the optimal socketing flowchart.
Assuming blue gems are better than yellow (i.e. Spirit is worth more than haste, and the hit cap is not a problem):
1) Let N be the total number of sockets you have. Let R be min (number of red+prismatic sockets,(N-1)/2).
2) Put R red gems into red/prismatic sockets.
3) If there are still red/prismatic sockets left over, put purple in them.
4) Let Y be min(R, number of yellow sockets).
5) Put Y green gems into yellow sockets.
6) Put R-Y blue gems into blue sockets. //you're now at red/blue parity and have at least one blue or yellow socket left.
7) Put one blue or green gem into one socket. Meta requirement now satisfied.
8) For each remaining pair of blue/yellow sockets, socket one blue and one orange gem.
9) If yellow are left, fill with half green and half orange. If blue are left, fill with purple.

Hmm, this came out worse than I thought. I'm going to see if I can clean that up into simple rules. And this isn't even getting to the possibility of ignoring socket bonuses.

EDIT: the above isn't totally correct. I'll try to make a good writeup.

#19 Cdin

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:32 PM

That's actually not the best way to deal with yellow sockets, assuming you are near hit cap (some spirit pieces and mass reforging should get you close) and intellect is better than crit/haste/mastery. The best way is placing a green gem into a yellow socket while placing a red gem into a red socket. This would give you 40 int + 40 rating from two yellow + red sockets, while your method would use a yellow + purple gem for 20 int + 60 rating. Since this method required a red socket for each yellow socket, it may get complicated when having 2 more yellow than red+prismatic combined (the initial green gem may also go to a yellow socket). If you have at least 2 more yellow than red+prismatic, use the above method and fill up the best sockets bonuses first. You'll have only yellow and blue sockets left then. If the socket bonus is good enough (remember, you used up the sockets with good bonuses first) use a yellow, otherwise a purple gem. Blue sockets naturally get filled with purple gems.

Your T7 test at level 80 is a good indication. Ratings will be worse at 85 though since their requirement was multipled by 4 (and T11 has nearly 4 times the ratings of T7) but base damage was only multiplied by ~2. Scaling is awkward since better gear means (usually) more sockets and at some point epic gems, but also that intellect won't be that much better than ratings in high-end gear (in T6/T10, spellpower and haste were pretty close compared to T4/T7). Living in interesting times :monocle:


Your right. I was hoping that there would be a simple rule that everyone could follow, but it looks like it will be a little complicated.

That said, I was using my rule in the calculations, and that favored the Bracing Meta. This means that the Chaotic is clearly the best moonkin meta, at least until I can do some better calculations.
www.GrayMatterWoW.blogspot.com - My Moonkin related Blog.

#20 Treyce

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 07:07 PM

Glad there is some confusion over this (excuse any insult), because ive done alot of testing, and in full T11 359 gear, under many gemming scenarios, i still only get the Chaotic coming ahead by a slight 200-300 dps. Ive done my own math, but i would like to see what others think regarding this meta.

What the issue seems to be is the massive amount of int (and its new inherent strength) you are swapping to obtain the critical damage bonus. Since we drop quite low in critical rating, its very close, at least until we start seeing superior crit numbers.




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