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Fury DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm


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#21 Trronn

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 02:39 PM

Though the posts containing parses are mildly useful, they are completely scattered data points across a table with four major variables: strength, haste, crit, mastery (excluding hit and expertise because the consensus is to cap them with little variance).

The ideal situation would be to isolate one variable and note differences as that variable is changed. OR isolate two variables and note their interaction at different levels. What is almost never helpful is changing three variables at a time. I know this is easier said than done considering you typically have to trade a stat on gear instead of just lowering or increasing it. However, it would a lot more helpful if data collected from an individual had a clear intent of isolating when a stat's value begins to diminish or interaction curves between two stats.

Posts saying "here are my stats and here's the dps I got" are not helpful. Neither are, "this time I reforged everything to X, the next time I kept everything the same but gemmed Y and Z". Also please don't assert conclusions which are already the consensus at the moment, i.e. the dpr of hs > slam, hit should be capped.

#22 StaxRexx

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:12 PM

For those of you that have raided Fury how is your mobility effected by the new rotation. On the dummy I'm finding I'm paying more attention to my rotation than anything else my pre 4.01 playstyle made picking up and moving to the next target on say dreamwalker to be a very fluid thing and was very key to me maintaining high numbers on those types of fights.

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#23 Retn

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:57 PM

When I was raiding last night, my mobility seemed to be the same as it was before. I guess it all depends how fluent you are with the new rotation. Just pick up and restart your rotation whenever you switch mobs. Having such a low cooldown on BT makes it possible to do this at any point in your rotation without any issues it seems.

#24 serraladin

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 10:25 PM

I personaly think that if you drop crit for haste below 33% you will be attacking more slowly on average because of the 3 charge of flurry not being refreshed on time.
I tried to change for full haste instead of crit (exp and hit capped ofc) and it seemed to me that i had more rage, more enrage uptime but also less flurry charges and less yellow damage... Now I focus on crit, flurry is rarely down , enrage is more often down too but we got berserker rage to make up for it.

Edit: I'm not really sure that enrage is more often down with crit stuff, but you will sometimes still have no rage buff no matter what you focus on, because of rng.

#25 bubuman

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 08:56 AM

For those of you that have raided Fury how is your mobility effected by the new rotation?.


As far as mobility goes i believe the changes from "on next swing" abilities to instant hits have improved the rotation overall. Fights like Dreamwalker where you had to use cleave to maximise damage done has it easier as you don't have to wait for a cleave to come around after its queued at a group of suppressors.

Our downtime in between cool downs have shortened and in my opinion, our current rotation is somewhat like arms now where if your gcd isn't up all the time, its a dps loss.

Overall my current mobility is higher in ratings compared to the old fury rotation and it'll continue to be better as it sets in better.

#26 Ruke

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 05:35 PM

I’ve seen quite a few posts ask about whether or not to focus on reforging crit into hit, or to focus on reforging haste into hit, or a balance. No one seems to have reached a consensus yet.

I was curious of this myself so I spent a good bit of time testing to find at least an idea of what may be more valuable, disappointed to say though that the results don’t clearly point in favor for either direction. On the bright side the difference appears to be small enough such that it shouldn’t make or break you whichever you choose, so long as you maintain about 33-35% crit minimum for the theorized ‘happy-place’ of flurry up-time.

The test was in a vacuum since it was done on a dummy, with a decent sample size. Only way to really have some control over outside factors for now, but that of course means it isn’t as realistic as a raid scenario. I wanted to do this in a raid originally but I’m locked out until next week, so this will have to do for now; I will attempt to replicate it in a controlled raid setting for a more accurate picture when I can enter again.

Here is the test and results (and some misc data) anyway:
________________________________
________________________________

Ran five timed runs exactly 5m in length for each case; one case where I primarily reforged crit into hit, and the other where I primarily reforged haste into hit. The only difference between the two cases is the haste and crit ratings (spread of 6.34% haste, 4.53 crit%). The hit, expertise, and attack ratings stay exactly the same between both cases. Self-buffed with battleshout only, using the Raging Blow > Bloodthirst > Heroic Strike priority rotation (with Slam on Bloodsurge, only if desperate to spend rage), on a heroic lv80 dummy in Silvermoon with no debuffs.
________________________________

#1 Valuing haste over crit: http://img135.images...89/hastedps.jpg
DPS
Run1: 9565
Run2: 9368
Run3: 9578
Run4: 9745
Run5: 9367
Spread: 378
AVG: 9524.6

Damage/Rage
HS: 385.5
BT: 422.0
RB: 540.5
________________________________

#2 Valuing crit over haste: http://img135.images...608/critdps.jpg
DPS
Run: 9774
Run2: 9414
Run3: 9425
Run4: 9533
Run5: 9580
Spread: 360
AVG: 9545.2

Damage/Rage (w/ 4.53% extra crit)
HS: 395.7 (2.66% increase)
BT: 449.1 (6.42% increase)
RB: 568.8 (5.23% increase)

*Worth noting the difference between the rage gain of the two was surprisingly decently noticeable in favor of the haste setup (as also reflected through the higher # of HS/BT/RBs). Both cases I could for the most part use all abilities on or close to CD, but the crit build was less consistent rage gain. Only time I had to force myself to use Bloodsurged Slams to prevent wasting rage was with the haste build. Enrage up-time was practically the same.
________________________________

TL;DR: Early testing in a controlled (but not raid-accurate) case on a dummy seems to point towards the decision of reforging haste or crit to hit to be a toss-up between the two, if crit is already above 35%.

This of course is without full raid buffs and debuffs, so the question is more if having full raid buffs/debuffs will change the relative DPS values of haste and crit. With crit being on a DR curve in higher percents, and (to my knowledge) haste not having as significant as a DR (if any, or a reachable one in current tier?) for melee, one might speculate haste would be slightly ahead?

#27 kazoozle

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 05:36 PM

What are you guys thinking between Regular Tiny Abom Vs Reg WFS (reforged hit)? I'm getting pretty similar numbers.

#28 hikarodesu

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 06:00 PM

@Ruke: Looking at the 2 juxtaposed it shows haste as being clearly superiod. Your crits have a lower count for every single one of your specials, as well as melee strikes, AS WELL as having much less of each when focusing crit.

From your image uploads
Haste
HS 204 hit / 149 crit / 4081642 total
melee 448 hit / 388 crit / 3505473 total
BT 194 hit / 171 crit / 3089341 total
RB 222 hit / 150 crit / 2011038 total

Crit
HS 190 hit / 122 crit / 3703766 total
melee 381 hit / 349 crit / 3150791 total
BT 155 hit / 174 crit / 2954608 total
RB 173 hit / 155 crit / 1865243 total


Looking at these numbers, I don't see how the DPS could have even been close at all between these two?


e: I hadn't noticed that those were all 5 tests at a time, but that shouldn't be a huge difference. From looking at those numbers haste seems to be ahead a nice bit, not to mention a more stable rage income. Obviously this is all on a dummy and might be different in a raid situation I'd like to see some tests done like this while fully buffed.

#29 Ruke

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 06:11 PM

@Ruke: Looking at the 2 juxtaposed it shows haste as being clearly superiod. Your crits have a lower count for every single one of your specials, as well as melee strikes, AS WELL as having much less of each when focusing crit.

From your image uploads
Haste
HS 204 hit / 149 crit / 4081642 total
melee 448 hit / 388 crit / 3505473 total
BT 194 hit / 171 crit / 3089341 total
RB 222 hit / 150 crit / 2011038 total

Crit
HS 190 hit / 122 crit / 3703766 total
melee 381 hit / 349 crit / 3150791 total
BT 155 hit / 174 crit / 2954608 total
RB 173 hit / 155 crit / 1865243 total


Looking at these numbers, I don't see how the DPS could have even been close at all between these two?


e: I hadn't noticed that those were all 5 tests at a time, but that shouldn't be a huge difference. From looking at those numbers haste seems to be ahead a nice bit, not to mention a more stable rage income. Obviously this is all on a dummy and might be different in a raid situation I'd like to see some tests done like this while fully buffed.

Curious find, I'm not quite sure how to explain it? I timed each run to 5m exactly, and did five runs for each. The five runs were not back to back, there was a couple minutes of break in between each. I made sure that the overall damage didn't have any extra ability damage in it for both tests. Note that I did not use death wish the third time of any set.

Also note there were some stray melee swings (but no ability uses) in between some of the runs as I made sure to start every fight with 100 rage. Once I was at 100 rage I waited another 2-3m before starting the test (to ensure all trinkets/abilities/etc off of CD), and kept myself at 100 rage by alternating shout & berserker. Every fight was started with both of those just used and on CD.

So how can this discrepancy come into play? Is there something I didn't account for?


EDIT: I know why, made a dumb mistake. That said, it's not completely accurate to compare the total damage results, though the DPS comparison should still be reasonably close. The mistake was that during the second round of tests (with crit over haste) I switched from a hand stop-watch to one on my PC, and forgot that an overclocked CPU can mess with the accuracy of some stop watch programs. I just compared the two, and over a 5m period my PC watch was a bit over 30s faster. Sigh, I may try and rerun those then I guess.

#30 Sentia

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:02 PM

I have been doing alot of tests on Dummies but regardless of how hard I try to push a rotation by hand, nothing I have done beats spaming a 1 button macro.

#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast Heroic Strike
/cast Bloodthirst
/cast Raging Blow

I activate shouts, Death Wish and Blood Rage as needed and I use glyphed Heroic throws to put sunders up. I just don't see the need to use a real rotation when a 1 button spam macro uses up all the rage i can generate and the damage is the same. The Advantage of the 1 button dps rotation is thats I have more time free to watch the long cool downs.

Note: I have not included Slam because it currently fails to be a dps increase, has anyone considered specing out of Blood surge? What did you put the points into if you did?

#31 Brakthir

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:29 PM

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.

#32 Ruke

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:46 PM

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.

I start every fight at range, and use heroic throw before I intercept (so it doesn't reset swing timer, since I'm not even in range to swing yet). You'll notice in 5 runs I use 5 heroic throws, one for the start of combat on each run. Just a way to gain a small bit of extra damage at the start of a fight.

Start of my fight (in a raid) typically looks like Recklessness > Armor Pot seconds before combat starts. As soon as combat starts I Death Wish > Heroic Throw > Intercept and start the normal rotation. I always try to get to 100 rage before a fight starts so I can do all of the previous, which is usually pretty easy to do (especially now).

I don't use Heroic Throw in the middle of a fight unless it's one that requires movement, then I might heroic throw before intercept for a target switch I need to run to.

EDIT: Ugh, scratch the armor pot thing. I forgot they got rid of the armor > AP conversion. Thanks for correction cbgoding.

#33 cbgoding

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:52 PM

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.


You do only use it at range. But what other major is a dps increase?

Armor Pot


We don't have AttT anymore.

#34 Seerow

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:53 PM

I thought Heroic Throw still reset your swing timer? Why would you use it to put up sunders unless you're at range obviously.


I've been thinking about using Heroic Throws as part of the rotation. You're right about it resetting the swing timer, but you could easily get a swing timer addon, the trick is trying find an open gcd where you're at the start of a swing. I mean it is rage free, decent damage, and adds a sunder, so it's worth using if you can manage it.

#35 Anduryondon

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 11:35 PM

I start every fight at range, and use heroic throw before I intercept (so it doesn't reset swing timer, since I'm not even in range to swing yet). You'll notice in 5 runs I use 5 heroic throws, one for the start of combat on each run. Just a way to gain a small bit of extra damage at the start of a fight.

Even if you're not in range to swing it resets your swing timer. So unless you wait more than a gcd for intercept you still lose ~2 seconds until your next swing comes out.

#36 Musclebound

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 12:18 AM

I've been thinking about using Heroic Throws as part of the rotation. You're right about it resetting the swing timer, but you could easily get a swing timer addon, the trick is trying find an open gcd where you're at the start of a swing. I mean it is rage free, decent damage, and adds a sunder, so it's worth using if you can manage it.


With Colossus Smash being part of both Arms and Fury's rotation, and since the glyph refreshes sunders on the target, there will be no reason to Heroic Throw at later levels.
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#37 Seerow

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 12:30 AM

With Colossus Smash being part of both Arms and Fury's rotation, and since the glyph refreshes sunders on the target, there will be no reason to Heroic Throw at later levels.



Maybe not for the sunder (though phases where you're forced out of range, having a ranged refresh is useful, rather than having to restack sunders), but even as a damage dealing ability, if you can use it perfectly (ie not interrupting a swing, or at least clipping little of it), it will be a dps gain. Realize, now that we're rage limited, damage per rage means everything. A 100% rage free attack that hits for about as much as BT is worth using.

Maybe not quite so much now that BT was buffed, and HT appears to not have been, but really any rage free damage we can come up with is going to be good. If you can time your HT such that it doesn't interrupt a swing timer (or interrupts less of it than the damage you gain from it. How much of a swing that is I'm not really sure), then it will be a dps increase until we get to a point where we have every gcd filled and are hitting HS on cooldown. We're really not even at that extreme point on live in 4.0.1 where we have massively inflated stats, I don't think we'll ever get to that point come cata.

#38 bubuman

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:56 AM

HT definitely is a dps gain when used in the right moments. Implementing it in the rotation wouldn't help much but at occasions where you got all your abilities in a cool-down, even if its a half second wait, you can make use of it. I don't know about you guys but my HTs have a pretty high average dps and since my crit is past 50% its mostly a win-win situation; i use em as the first ability right after a pull and throw em in whenever possible. On most times where you don't have enough rage for a HS, it'll come in perfect.

#39 Rurik

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:34 AM

After doing ICC last night I feel there are quite some situations where the raid damage taken allows me to use slam in the free, so not specing bloodsurge would be a loss of DPS in those situations. If the rage is avaliable it's bad not to be able to spend it, and when there's raid damage there's rage. There is nothing else i'd rather use the free on than a slam assuming i have rage.

Heroic throw I only use when running and most fights offer opportunities for it.

#40 Ruke

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:43 AM

After doing ICC last night I feel there are quite some situations where the raid damage taken allows me to use slam in the free, so not specing bloodsurge would be a loss of DPS in those situations. If the rage is avaliable it's bad not to be able to spend it, and when there's raid damage there's rage. There is nothing else i'd rather use the free on than a slam assuming i have rage.

Heroic throw I only use when running and most fights offer opportunities for it.

Correct if wrong, but I'm rather certain you only receive 1 point of rage when you take damage now.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in patch notes or not as I didn't keep up with all of them, but it's pretty easy to test. Unless there's something I'm missing, I haven't seen any damage taken give more than 1 point of rage on the few occasions I looked for it.




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