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Fury DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm

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#41 Rurik


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:59 AM

Correct if wrong, but I'm rather certain you only receive 1 point of rage when you take damage now.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in patch notes or not as I didn't keep up with all of them, but it's pretty easy to test. Unless there's something I'm missing, I haven't seen any damage taken give more than 1 point of rage on the few occasions I looked for it.

I might well be wrong, if so it's down to being hit capped and focusing on haste rather than crit that made the rotation flow good and allowed for slamming too. I just can't see what you would drop bloodsurge for to get a higher DPS increase.

#42 cutterx2202


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:24 AM

Not sure if this was posted yet, but I found 738 is the exact rating to cap out hit with precision.
(738=24%) + 3% = 27%


#43 Moozhe


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:45 AM

I use glyphed Heroic throws to put sunders up.

Heroic Throw is a 1min CD, Sunder Armor is a 30 second debuff. I don't see how there is any point to this.

I start every fight at range, and use heroic throw before I intercept (so it doesn't reset swing timer, since I'm not even in range to swing yet).

If you do this, then you won't land any autoswings for 2-3 seconds at the start of the fight while you wait for your swing timer to reset. You lose 3 seconds of autoswing rage generation and the white damage itself.

You're right about it resetting the swing timer, but you could easily get a swing timer addon...

This won't work unless your weapons are the exact same speed and are kept synchronized. Different speed weapons will get farther and farther apart, but when you Heroic Throw it will reset both your mainhand and offhand swing timer.

Also note that, even if you have two weapons of the same speed, by default the swing timers will be staggered when you start attacking. You can either Heroic Throw to synchronize them, or if the target is attackable before you pull, if you start autoattacking from range (so that your character draws his weapons and will begin autoswinging as soon as the target is in range), then your attacks will be synchronized.

Heroic Throw should be a DPS loss if you are dual wielding with different speed weapons.

#44 kazoozle


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:41 PM

In all of my own tests, going to haste from crit has been a dps loss. I've tried a lot of different comparisons of haste vs crit. Right now i'm sitting with hard capped hit, ~10% haste and 41% crit. I've been holding a pretty consistent 9.1-9.2k dps on the dummys. When I dropped it down to about 35% crit, I was topping out around 8.8. This was with multiple tests at both setups.

With heroic strike critting around 80% of the time and using it as soon as its off cooldown, flurry has almost 100% uptime.

Side note: to the guy using his macro as HS -> BT -> RB, every test I've ran shows that damage per rage output order would actually be RB-> BT -> HS.

If you were going for pure damage it would be HS-> RB -> BT. When looking at recount, keep in mind that raging blow shows up as two hits instead of 1 so it's damage is twice what it shows.

Over the course of an ICC run my average damages were:


Side note: I'm saying execute is spammable at 20%.

It was averaging 25k per hit at 30 rage. that gives it the highest overall damage and DPR. (40k crits make me happy)

#45 hikarodesu


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:02 PM

Talking about the order of abilities used, I personally prefer to do BT -> HS -> RB, clicking HS a couple of milliseconds after BT (rather than clicking at the same time) this is to ensure that BT is used first, so if you get a battle trance proc it is used on HS and not on RB. I'm not sure when other people are queuing HS in their rotation, but that's what I find most effective, as well as how I'd set it up if I were to use a 1 hit macro.

#46 Darkmgl


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:45 PM

Yeah, I do not understand why people are saying to mix execute into your rotation. It is by far my hardest hitting ability even at 10 rage. Am I missing something? It doesn't even seem to be worth HSing unless you aren't able to dump the rage fast enough under 20%.

#47 Montegomery


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:24 PM

The original theorycraft, based on Execute's tooltip, put it well behind most other abilities in terms of damage. It's only saving grace was, in fact, the Executioner talent. However, when 4.0 went live it became immediately apparent that Execute was hitting far harder than the tooltip indicated, and this only further increased with the hotfix.

Many people are probably misinformed, having obtained their information before Execute's incredible damage came to light.

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#48 Darkmgl


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:06 PM

Ah I see. Yeah all the tooltips just seem wrong. I've heard theres also issues with tooltips and items updating because of Blizzard's new caching system in the engine. For some reason the cache doesn't always check to see if theres a newer version available.

#49 Brakthir


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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:00 PM

With the changes to tricks/MD, I'm finding aggro/threat to be a much larger issue now. I'm constantly riding the tank's threat and having to hold back quite a bit. I'm going to hold back using Deathwish on the second ghouls spawn instead of at the start on HM LK. However, even over the course of that long fight, I find myself constantly catching back up to the tank.

Anyone else having major threat issues?

#50 Valistryx


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 03:02 AM

I've noticed threat is more of an issue now, but I generally don't have to hold back much outside of the first 30 seconds of the fight. If I can steal a Salvation from a Paladin I don't even really need to worry inside of that window.

#51 Kylael


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 05:20 AM

Having huge threat issues, peaking at 36k tps w/Death Wish, Bloodlust and trinkets in ICC seems unmanageable without a Paladin (or two) willing to help out with Salv on the pull, tricks or not. This was with a Warrior tank, are any of the other tank classes in a better position to apply initial threat without "ramping up"?

#52 halthane


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:11 AM

Having huge threat issues, peaking at 36k tps w/Death Wish, Bloodlust and trinkets in ICC seems unmanageable without a Paladin (or two) willing to help out with Salv on the pull, tricks or not. This was with a Warrior tank, are any of the other tank classes in a better position to apply initial threat without "ramping up"?

Not to my knowledge. All of them have solid burst threat but nothing that could deal with that kind of threat straight out of the gate. Consider that:

1) DKs must apply diseases.
2) Warriors have shield slam but also need to stack sunders.
3) Paladins need time for holy power and glyph of truth to stack.
4) Not sure with bears exactly but if I recall correctly they need to get mangle lacerate and the like up and running as well.

Additionally tanks are at least partially balanced against the stacking of vengeance over time. Finally it may also be worth considering that on fights like LK and Festergut that the diminished passive reduction from no longer having bonus armor makes early application of damage reduction debuffs a high priory for tanks of all classes as well, and these abilities generally cause much less threat than their damaging counterparts.

#53 Rurik


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:38 AM

From all the variables of stats posted here i am starting to believe haste and hit don't have much of a difference in terms of value. Sticking to either one with gems and re-forgeries seem to produce similar range of numbers in DPS. I have tried both and have come up with 10-11k in lows to peaks on the heroic training dummies. Its like a preference; if you want haste, go all haste and if you want hit, go all hit. I know there's a big flaw in my saying but there is no substantial difference in them. Anyone has the same thoughts?

Do you mean haste and crit? Or do you mean that soft hit cap is not more important than haste? And where does that leave crit?

I ran ICC25 with about 35% unbuffed crit and 25% or so haste and I noticed my Flurry uptime on Festergut and Rotface was around 85%. Valuing haste over crit regardless of what those numbers are at means that flurry uptime will go down (more white hits with less crits will consume the flurry charges faster).

So I guess what I want to know is where the breaking point between crit and haste is (I assume that exp soft cap, str and hit hard cap are better than haste or crit, I'm completely ignoring mastery for the time beeing based on what people have said). I'm sure there is a breaking point and that haste isn't always better than crit.

#54 urakdarkhorn


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 04:40 PM

I ran four tests on the Heroic Test Dummy in an effort to establish some stat values. I was able to isolate 293 points worth of stats that I could reforge without restriction. I found that using crit as my donor stat for reforging worked best and I could only use those pieces of gear that did not have haste already on them. HWT trinket was used in lieu of DBW to minimize the RNG factor. For the control test I reforged the 293 points into dodge.
A one-button macro was used that included Bloodthirst and Raging Blow as well as Death Wish and Berserker Rage. Slam was not used due to the RNG factor of Bloodsurge and Heroic Strike was not used as I did not want rage to be a factor. Death Wish and Berserker Rage were included in the macro to test the benefits of Mastery as well as more Raging Blow strikes.

My base stats are as follows. No buffs were used except Hallows End Hit Candy to get me from 26.94% hit to over cap.
AP 4817
Haste 16.62% (545)
Crit 34.40% (890)
Mastery 8
Hit 27.13% (742)
Expertise 26

The tests were run for exactly ten minutes each.
Damage DPS Increase
Control (293 dodge) 3633443 6055.74
293 Haste 3692386 6153.98 1.62%
293 Crit 3772251 6287.09 3.80%
293 Mastery 3922169 6536.95 7.90%

The results of the tests were not what I had expected them to be.

#55 Shha


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 05:39 PM

If you made rage a non-issue by not using HS, of course haste will end up low. Now mastery vs crit dominance is certainly interesting, but below 4M dmg test samples are hardly conclusive.

#56 dryphen


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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:11 PM

Shha beat me to it, while it is nice to see some legitimate testing being done, the rage factor ignored in the test is arguably the most important pertaining factor to current fury DPS. I do, however, share the same eyebrow-raising reaction to the mastery results and will be interested to see more conclusive information on it.

One thing I would like to propose (and it may have already been brought up somewhere) is that with the way hit and haste work in synergistic fashion to directly control rage income, there must be an ideal level of these stats to hold where rage income is just enough to be able to use the abilities in the rotation but not excessive and capping (it could potentially be unattainable). It would make sense that each would hold a distinct rage per second (RPS) value and at a high enough total RPS (withholding ambient rage from damage), there would be diminishing value in both of these stats.

Also, there may be additional benefit in maintaining haste levels that provide weapon swings (rage income) specifically when abilities are being used in the rotation. I plan on doing some testing and napkin math later this evening to see if I can come up with some concrete values.

#57 Voric


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Posted 20 October 2010 - 06:30 AM

Seeing there are a lot of people posting parses about doing stuff this way or that or do this and someone else saying do this and there is real concrete thing to do with hours of testing I have pretty much done the math that I think is pretty much right. So below is what I came up with please feel free to test out what I say before denying it.


Damage: 3990-4953
DPS: 1511.5/922.3
Speed: 2.99/2.91
Haste: 24.6
Hit Chance: 26.5%
Crit Chance: 41.05%
Expertise: 25

Yellow Slots = Str - Crit
Blue slots = Str - Hit
Red Slots = Str
Meta = 21 Crit 3% Increased Crit Damage

[Prime Glyphs]

Glyph of Blood Thirst
Glyph of Slam
Glyph of Raging Blow

[Major Glyphs]

Glyph of Cleaving
Glyph of Death Wish
Glyph of Victory Rush/Heroic Throw/Charge ( Your Preference )

[Minor Glyphs]

Glyph of Battle-shout
Glyph of Berserker Rage
Glyph of Demo/Command/Enduring Victory ( Your Preference )

- Best Gear Setup I have come up with and use -
( I am still theory crafting with other pieces this may change )

(Heroic)[Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Helmet] -- (Substitute) [Landsouls Horned Greathelm]
(Heroic)[Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Battle-plate]
(Heroic)[Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Legplates]
(Heroic)[Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Gauntlets]
(Heroic)[Raging Behomoth's Shoulder-plates] -- (Substitute) [Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Shoulders] --
(Heroic)[Blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers]
(Heroic)[Coldwraith Links]
(Heroic) [Gluth's Fetching Knife]
(Heroic)[Deathbringer's Will]
(Heroic)[Sharpened Twilight Scale] -- (Substitute) Whispering Fanged Skull --
(Heroic)[Might of Blight]
[Ashen Band of Endless Might]
(Heroic)[Lana'tehl's Chain of Flagellation] -- (Substitute) [Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard] --
(Heroic)[Polar Bear Claw Bracers]
(Heroic)[Winding Sheet] -- (Substitute) [Might of the Ocean Serpent] --


Now looking at a few pieces of the gear you will notice quite a few pieces all ready come with hit on them which is one of the first things you want to do to make sure you get to around 26.5-27% Hit. This obviously as some of you might know to become hit capped or close to it. I am at 26.5% I still have yet to get a miss so far.


Now there have been some people saying to keep crit or keep haste or keep mastery or swap it for this and that and again no one is really giving people on what they should be doing so from what I have came up with which is what the best I have came up with is Reforging Crit into Hit till you're around the 26.5-27%. I have around 40% Crit and 24.5% Haste. I tried Haste for hit and saw a good 700 + in dps loss. (Feel free to do the test yourself)


Also I know a lot of people are going Expertise to 26 but I have been messing around a bit and I've went around 22-25 and with being at 22 I had 2 parries within 1 million damage, with 25 I had zero I am still testing this so feel free to do so yourself.


No matter what testing you've done you have probably realized or well realize now that Heroic Strike is your #1 priority ALWAYS! It does the most damage with Blood Thirst coming to a #2. You should only use Raging Blow when Heroic Strike and Blood thirst are on Cool down. Do not and I repeat NEVER use Raging Blow or anything else with low rage and rage starve and keep yourself from using Heroic Strike as soon as it's up. There are also some people saying Slam is worthless well you're almost right and some people are ignoring it completely which again If Heroic Strike, BT , RB are on cool down and you have 80+ Rage then go ahead and use the Slam Proc. Also keep in mind you have Berserker Rage and Battle shout for more rage and you throw that in when you can! You will sometimes have to choose between BT or Battle Shout = If you need the rage then BS if not BT and use BS when Bt is on CD and HS and BS together.

So in reality it goes like this =

HS-BT-(RB)=Only if HS & BT on CD- Slam with 80+ Rage & everything else is on CD

[Procs and Timers]

I highly recommend using proc timers for cool downs and to keep yourself aware of when things are coming up and how much time something has left till it procs or when it is going to proc. I use a customized one I made myself but some out there you can use are Power Aura's - Satrina - Elkano's Buff Bar - MSBT . Alot of you don't keep an eye on procs feel free to look at the list below.

Deathbringer Will = Aim of the Iron Dwarves | Speed of the Vrykul | Strentgh of the Taunka
Sharpened Twilight Scale = Piercing Twilight
Battle Trance = Have a % change to make your next special attack that costs more than 5 rage consume no rage.
Death-wish = Increases Physical Damage by 25%
Recklessness = Your next 3 Special Ability attacks have an additional 100% to critically hit.
Incite = Your next Heroic Strike will be a Critical
Berserk = Attack power Increased by 400
Enrage = Physical Damage increased by 10%
Flurry = Attack speed increased by 25%
Chaos Base = Strength increased by 270
Frost-forged Champion = Attack Power Increased by 480

I have all of these active within around my character or near it so I can see them , Now I am sure some of you are thinking well why does he have this or that active some of them may not be as important as others but I like to keep an eye on them. For instance you do not wanna blow your DW and Recklessness right off the back on the boss pull I know some of you do that and it's a dps loss and your thinking the sooner you blow it the sooner it's up again.

The idea is to start off with the priority above and you wanna try and get a DBW Proc - STS Proc - and FFC proc along with Enrage and flurry, As many as you can get up and then blow Recklessness and then DW for the most possible damage. This may take some time to perfect or get used to and lucky procs but try and get atleast 4+ Procs and then use Reck and DW. I have found that Strength of the Taunka definitely pulls in the most damage if you don't get it don't worry about it but if you do watch the numbers fly.

My Target Dummy Parses Range from 12.8k - 14.2k

Most ICC 25 Boss Encounters providing I don't get RNG'd 21-38kDPS (38k=BQL)

I think I covered about everything I might of missed something but I'll let you know!

#58 kazoozle


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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:34 AM

Voric, I disagree with your ability priority. Every parse I have from dummys and raids shows Raging Blow being the most efficient followed by bloodthirst followed by heroic strike in terms of damage per rage. Yes, heroic strike hits harder, but it's not hitting 50% harder than a raging blow or bloodthirst as the rage increase would suggest. In a rage-unlimited situation pure damage would be the key, but given the new need for some conservation, you're better off going for the more efficient use.

I think the disparity of finding raging blow as the least damaging comes from it registering as two separate hits so the average damage would be double what recount shows.

I'm definitely gonna have to test out the expertise thing

#59 Lemina


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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:53 AM

I'm definitely gonna have to test out the expertise thing

The ret pallies here on EJ have concluded that you only need 22 expertise to expertise cap, as opposed to 26.


Note: its 95 rating for them because they get 10 free points from their seal of truth glyph.

#60 vivante


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Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

Seeing there are a lot of people posting parses about doing stuff this way or that or do this and someone else saying do this and there is real concrete thing to do with hours of testing I have pretty much done the math that I think is pretty much right.

You say you have done the math but I can't seem to find it anywhere in your post, do you have any logs or empirical data backing this up at all?

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