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Arms DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm


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#21 manwe858

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 06:47 AM

I just tested the stance dancing and I am very impressed. All I had to do was make a macro for MS, Rend, OP, HS, and Execute and the stance dancing worked painlessly. The dps was on par if not better with no stance dancing. The reason for this is probably because I haven't quite got the hang of when to refresh rend yet with stancing.

#22 hellord

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:55 AM

This is something I consider an issue. I am voicing my concerns about the differences between stances on the beta forum since a few, because the stance dance isn't anything but a gimmick way to gain dps and the whole process can be macroed. Used correctly it's much more than a marginal gain: rend ticks gain the bonus aswell so you only miss the 5% on the application refresh and you can simply keep the time in battle stance down to 2-3s every ~10.

Latest changes also prompted up the damage of everything but OP so increasing the benefit of sitting in berserk for most of the time. Also, since MS is far higher damage than OP, even accounting the 50% crit difference, you are still going to try to avoid using LttS on OP.
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#23 Moozhe

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:10 AM

My testing indicates that refreshing Rend with Thunder Clap for single target damage with the Blood and Thunder talent is not worth it.

Rend ticks 6 times, once at 0 seconds, and every 3 seconds after, until the debuff falls off at 15 seconds. In order to refresh the debuff with a Thunder Clap, you lose that last tick. A Rend tick is currently doing more damage than a Thunder Clap hit. So you're doing less damage for 50% more rage.

Blood and Thunder should only be worth it with 2 or more targets.

#24 manwe858

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 02:00 PM

I agree that staying in berserker stance is not intended as arms has always been associated with battle stance. It does present some issues though, especially during Deadly Calm phases. During DC since nothing costs rage you want to mash HS on CD, however if the macro requires HS to only be usable during berserker stance then it would not go off while you were OPing at the same time which required you to go back to battle stance. The simple remedy would be I suppose to unmacro HS and allow it's use whenever since generally you'll be in berserker stance after an MS anyway.

It does seem a bit gimmicky this way though.

#25 hellord

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 02:22 PM

Some more things I just tested with Rend.
First of all the behaviour has changed a bit since some weeks ago. For a while Rend had a very low crit chance, but now seems fixed. However its damage per tick is based on the initial application so changing stance or getting an AP buff won't change the tick size until you refresh or reapply it. This wasn't happening in the beginning of my beta experience where damage changed based on stances and buffs. The only thing that seems to affect the tick is Trauma and the first tick on a target without the bleed debuff is in fact doing less damage.

About Rend vs TC for single target there is a different "approach" you should use. Rend *refresh* won't grant any tick at 0 time, it will just continue to tick on a 3s basis wheter you refresh at 14s or 0.5s and will tick 6 times eventually extending over 15s to achieve that (up to 17s if you refresh @~9s or ~4s).

TC does the same thing, ie produces another 6 ticks after the *refresh*, but contrary to Rend it deals damage on the refresh. TC is mitigated by armor, but can't be dodged or parried and has 3yds additional range. It scales from pure AP instead of weapon damage and scales slower than Rend.

So you actually need to reapply Rend to produce that 1 tick, and this produces a loss of OP damage. Ideally you want to reapply Rend as fast as possible after last tick. This is not always the best choice tho because of cds and GCD collision. TC won't make you lose any OP damage cause you can only refresh Rend with it. Also for this reason it will cost you more than X rage (5 glyphed, 10 otherwise), cause you will have always to use it before the expiration, while Rend can even be delayed to up to 3s.

Imho if you see that your cds will collide with the optimal Rend reapplication, you are better off using TC as close as possible to last tick. Rend ticks should deal more damage than a TC in nearly every occasion except under CS and low AP levels, but you shouldn't clip last tick with another Rend because, unless you only have 14 or less rage, TC will deal more damage even for single target.
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#26 Ramago

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:02 PM

Seems you got to me first, hehe. After reading your first post, I wanted to try a simple test to check it out. The test consisted on applying Rend, do nothing else than auto-attack, reapply Rend as soon as it expires and end auto-attacking before the second Rend expires. Doing this I got values between 1002 to 1403 DPS, with 12 ticks of Rend.

I then did another test consisting in using TC to reapply Rend just before it expires, ofcourse, ending the test by stoping auto-attack before the second Rend expires. I got values from 1262 to 1617 DPS, with 11 and sometimes 12 ticks of Rend, meaning if timed right, you won't lose ticks. This might be a glitch, but it happened.

I didn't use any other abilities and did it on Battle stance as to not jeopardise the results. I also discarded the extreme, unreal cases, i.e., getting 0% or 80% crit chance on Auto-Attacks.

#27 Elimbras

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:40 PM

For what it's worth, the classical interaction of stats, buffs and dots for shadow priest is as follows :
- Contribution (or procs) of AP / Spellpower is calculated on cast / refresh (including auto-refresh) ;
- contribution of haste / crit gear buffs on the player is calculated on cast / refresh (haste is sometimes an exception and can be rolled as long as the dot is kept up)
- contribution of haste / crit debuffs on the mob is calculated on the cast / refresh;
- contribution from damage percentage buffs on the player is calculated on the cast / refresh;
- contribution from damage percentage debuff on the mob is calculated for each tick.

One way to integrate it in one algorithm is as follows:
- at each cast or refresh, the dot ticks value, crit rate and frequency (haste) are computed and stored;
- then any damage received (included from dots) is multiplied by the damage percentage modifiers, when the damage are received.

This makes sense because damage percentage modifiers apply the same modification / operation to all damage, whereas the crit / haste modifiers depends on the crit / haste rate of the casted spell.

As for the refresh mechanism, the basic rule is as follows :
- if the dot is already up when the refresh is, the next tick time is not changed. The new duration is the sum of the time to next tick and the base duration.
- if the dot is applied, the duration is the base duration, and the first tick is at the "expected" time.

I've done no testing, but it is likely that rend follows the same rules. Haste rolling might be possible though.

Edit : some dots applied on crit / cast, such as deep wounds, have different behaviour, because Blizzard avoids double dipping effect when possible (for example, critting deep wounds would :
1/ increase your deepwounds "deposit" (you have more crit, hence it applies more frequently)
2/ increase your deepwounds damage at constant deposit, because it will crit more often.
3/ Potentially (but they could disable that), allows deep wounds to proc from itself, which makes it basically out of control.

#28 hellord

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:10 PM

Well, Rend *should* follow the general rules of dots. Deep Wounds behaves differently because it has a buffer so the additional damage from a new crit is rolled into the existing one more or less like Ignite. Even DW damage per tick changes depending on the presence of Trauma, but I'm not sure there is anything else that can affect its tick damage only.

We probably can simplify saying that the buffs on YOU are applied on cast/refresh, the debuffs on the target may be applied on tick and the refresh extends the duration by the entire tick count (in the case of Rend 6), but I didn't do extensive testing.

The problem of solo testing Rend as arms is that we apply 2 debuffs at once: bleeds and physical damage. The latter also applies only when a bleed is ticking. So if the first tick deals 1 damage the second one should deal 1.352 damage. Since Trauma lasts 1 minute the first tick on the reapplication should deal 1.3 and the following ones again 1.352.

As I said already, the first tests I did about 2 months ago had a different behaviour because both buffs and debuffs seemed calculated per tick, so swapping stance provided a Rend tick change. I don't know if any other dot showed this behaviour before.

However the current behaviour, which seems aligned with other dots, has some interesting effect on our decision to refresh or reapply: if you have a buff that will expire before the last tick it may be better to refresh (and thus using TC) rather than reapply Rend. This is something I never considered since I assumed it changed on a tick basis.
Also, I couldn't do anything to let Rend "roll", but maybe the rolling is only tied to haste which doesn't affect it at all.
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#29 Belltoll

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:19 PM

I haven't seen any parses detailing exactly how much harder Execute hits when compared to Mortal Strike in a raid setting, so if it is really not a contest then it might be best to just spam it.


Very limited data from last night: execute hits significantly harder then MS after the hotfix. Not quite double but up in the range of 75% more damage.

#30 Belltoll

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:04 PM

From my testing, it doesn't look like the 115% WD mastery has been implemented yet. When it is, I think Mastery could overtake Crit as a desirable stat.


My parses in ICC25 last night showed that opportunity strikes was hitting harder then melee swings, I reforged my haste to mastery based on that.

#31 Spiattalo

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:11 PM

Very limited data from last night: execute hits significantly harder then MS after the hotfix. Not quite double but up in the range of 75% more damage.


I can confirm this. I've seen my MS hit for 14k while Execute going for 21k. As a reply to Rsydion, you might want to drop OP but not MS due to LttS talent.

#32 Aedilhild

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:34 PM

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Damage for Strikes of Opportunity has been increased to ~115% as per patch notes.

The boost may also increase the value of Expertise, since Mastery procs are tied to melee hits — reducing the compensatory potential of Overpower. If a dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would not have critted, a rare normal Overpower hit would result in a ~25% damage loss (breaking even with LttS); while a critical Overpower would produce up to double damage with LttS. But if both the dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would have critted — increasingly likely as gear improves — a critical Overpower would need LttS to produce a slight net gain. Even assuming no repercussions from Overpower's GCD and rage cost, that's an awful lot of makeup work.

#33 Belltoll

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:06 PM

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Damage for Strikes of Opportunity has been increased to ~115% as per patch notes.

The boost may also increase the value of Expertise, since Mastery procs are tied to melee hits — reducing the compensatory potential of Overpower. If a dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would not have critted, a rare normal Overpower hit would result in a ~25% damage loss (breaking even with LttS); while a critical Overpower would produce up to double damage with LttS. But if both the dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would have critted — increasingly likely as gear improves — a critical Overpower would need LttS to produce a slight net gain. Even assuming no repercussions from Overpower's GCD and rage cost, that's an awful lot of makeup work.


Likewise the buff to the mastery swing further drives down the value of slam if slam pauses the swing timer still (which I'm pretty sure it still does) because using more slams will drive down the number of whites and therefore the number of Strikes of Opportunity (SoO?).

I'm not sure slam really has much of a role in our "rotation" now. With the 15 second rend, 3 second heroic strike CD, 6 second MS CD, and 6 second OP CD (when exp capped), I never found myself in a position to not be able to use one of those. The slam damage is so far behind heroic strike and the rage cost so high- it doesn't seem to have a place.

Bladestorm also seems to have no role for single target DPS as the WW crits were around 40% of a heroic strike or MS for me and even corrected for GCD it's well behind another attack for single target DPS.

#34 MystEU

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:25 PM

Raided ICC25 as Arms this weekend. Check armory for spec and gear. Favoring Heroic Strike + 3/3 Incite over Slam + Battle trance in regards to priority and those couple of talent points. On most fights, I only used Slam when flooded with excess rage or during Deadly Calm with maximum HS usage. Here is the WoL raid parse for Friday night for you number-crunchers if it can be used to help gather some information.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I haven't raided as Arms since Ulduar so there's a little bit of learning curve here because of that and the new talents, but the above priorities and having Incite appeared to do really well.

#35 Seerow

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:12 PM

New Beta Build has this little gem in it: "Taste for Blood will not occur more than once every 5 sec, down from 6 sec."


This seems pretty useless if Rend is still not scaling with haste, making a difference only in the occasional case of a clipped rend, which while useful, won't come up often.

I'm wondering if maybe that change is a sign that they decided to relent on their position and allow melee DoTs to scale with haste. A 5second ICD would allow Rend/TFB to scale without any problems up until 20% haste, which is a pretty solid softcap for haste, all things considered. Anyone on Beta want to test to see if this is the case?

#36 Elimbras

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:38 PM

We probably can simplify saying that the buffs on YOU are applied on cast/refresh, the debuffs on the target may be applied on tick and the refresh extends the duration by the entire tick count (in the case of Rend 6), but I didn't do extensive testing.


That's not really correct.
The best way to say it is that damage multipliers debuff on the mob are applied on tick, any other buff/debuff is applied on cast / recast, and that refreshing between the 2nd to last and last tick is equivalent to refresh just after the last tick.

As for testing, you might want first to test in an other spec, where you can try to pop trinket / use cooldowns, and study their effect and the refresh mechanism.

#37 Phallacracy

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 02:56 PM

...so the priorities stats are now:

Hit til cap (8%) > exp (26) > str > crit til ~30% > mastery > crit > haste.

Correct?

One more thing, after seeing so many logs and graphs, at execute phase, stay at zerk stance for MS Execute spam and skip OP, rend or slam (+HS when DC)


Kind of, apparently you only need an expertise rating of 172/173, or 22 expertise, to not get dodged while behind a boss. Obviously adjust the necessary rating for weapon racials.

#38 Rysidion

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 03:18 PM

New Beta Build has this little gem in it: "Taste for Blood will not occur more than once every 5 sec, down from 6 sec."


This seems pretty useless if Rend is still not scaling with haste, making a difference only in the occasional case of a clipped rend, which while useful, won't come up often.

I'm wondering if maybe that change is a sign that they decided to relent on their position and allow melee DoTs to scale with haste. A 5second ICD would allow Rend/TFB to scale without any problems up until 20% haste, which is a pretty solid softcap for haste, all things considered. Anyone on Beta want to test to see if this is the case?


I think this has more to do with server latency. It used to miss procs at every 6 seconds pretty often, so I'm sure they just changed it to get rid of that problem (unless you have extreme amounts of latency lag). Rend shouldn't miss overpower procs now. I know in raids I used to miss the OP proc on some ticks of rend every three or four rend cycles, and it really messed up my groove.

I remember posting about this over a year ago (edit: about 10 months ago) on the Warrior forums (edit: bug report forums) as a change that needed to happen due to messing up rotations from missed procs due to rend and Overpower being so tightly tuned to have to occur exactly in sync lest a proc is lost.

My quote in December of 2009:

The second bug is Taste for Blood missing procs. If I am correct in my assumption, it is designed to "proc" every six seconds considering you have rend up (coinciding with the ticks, of course). However, it will fairly often skip a tick (and sometimes even two) before proccing again (for example, it will proc at the first tick of rend at 18 seconds remaining, then skip the 12 second remaining tick and proc on the 9 or even skip that one and proc on the 6). I am fairly sure this has to do with latency creating a delay, and the delay eventually leading to disrupting the skill ICD. Again, this pretty much kills our rhythm, which is very important to being successful as Arms compared to everyone else today. I suppose one solution would be to change the ICD to something like 5 seconds instead of 6, since rend only ticks in three second intervals anyway. It would give a bit more leeway on any latency issues and wouldn't generate any more maximum ticks than the current implementation (aside from MAYBE one every six rends or so if you time the rend applications perfectly).


Source:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] Sudden Death + Taste for Blood (PVE)

As a response to earlier posts, I don't see dropping Overpower in the execute phase as a good idea. it has a one second GCD and almost always crits, making it do more damage on average than the other skills (per use, aside from Execute), and far more damage per rage. Of course, that being said, it does require that you apply rend every 15-18 seconds to keep it going, which costs an Execute. This is another situation where having a simulation model would be wonderful.

#39 Facemasher

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:01 PM

If TfB can proc every 5 sec, and Rend ticks when you apply it. Can you apply rend every 5 sec to get quicker TfB procs? Not that it would even be worth it, just curious.
I guess if this was possible then you would be able to spam rend and see dmg every gcd, which I don't think is the case.

#40 Rysidion

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:33 PM

If TfB can proc every 5 sec, and Rend ticks when you apply it. Can you apply rend every 5 sec to get quicker TfB procs? Not that it would even be worth it, just curious.
I guess if this was possible then you would be able to spam rend and see dmg every gcd, which I don't think is the case.


That would be very difficult and a definite DPS loss considering the GCD is 1.5 seconds. You would have to delay skills to do that. It would go something like rend > mortal strike > (GCD skill or Overpower) > wait 1 second or 0.5 seconds, depending on what you used > rend again.

Should definitely be possible though, since it does proc off of the initial rend application damage.

Edit: Hellord has the better answer. I forgot that applying rend extends the duration instead of resetting it (by 3 seconds I think?).




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