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Arms DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm


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#41 hellord

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:34 PM

Applying Rend while it's ticking doesn't change the tick frequency. The only possible way to increase the procs is applying additional Rends with skewed frequency.
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#42 Galushi

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:13 AM

As a response to earlier posts, I don't see dropping Overpower in the execute phase as a good idea. it has a one second GCD and almost always crits, making it do more damage on average than the other skills (per use, aside from Execute), and far more damage per rage. Of course, that being said, it does require that you apply rend every 15-18 seconds to keep it going, which costs an Execute. This is another situation where having a simulation model would be wonderful.


Using Jungard's WoL report, i think Rend is also worth using during execute phase even without TfB considerations. Assuming Execute and rend have equal crit rates (which looks/should be close to true), Execute was hitting for 17k average noncrit and Rend will be doing 6 ticks of 2.5k, which is 15k noncrit. I dont know the average rage cost of execute but even assuming 15rage as a very forgiving estimate, Rend is outperforming executes efficiency. Of course this is taking into account that rage is still a finite resource. But it seems to me like Rend is probably the most rage efficient attack we have, all on it's own. If the boss has a very short time to live, this pushes things in favor of execute, but as long as most of the rend can tick out and give OP usability on top of that, i think its worthwhile.

Assuming a world where Slam actually matters and the priority is supposed to be MS->OP->Slam then HS rage burning, i think execute simply replaces Slam in the priority list and at that point nearly all gcd's are filled so you have to skip Slams and resort to HS to burn any excess rage.
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#43 MystEU

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 05:54 AM

Using Jungard's WoL report, i think Rend is also worth using during execute phase even without TfB considerations. Assuming Execute and rend have equal crit rates (which looks/should be close to true), Execute was hitting for 17k average noncrit and Rend will be doing 6 ticks of 2.5k, which is 15k noncrit. I dont know the average rage cost of execute but even assuming 15rage as a very forgiving estimate, Rend is outperforming executes efficiency. Of course this is taking into account that rage is still a finite resource. But it seems to me like Rend is probably the most rage efficient attack we have, all on it's own. If the boss has a very short time to live, this pushes things in favor of execute, but as long as most of the rend can tick out and give OP usability on top of that, i think its worthwhile.

Assuming a world where Slam actually matters and the priority is supposed to be MS->OP->Slam then HS rage burning, i think execute simply replaces Slam in the priority list and at that point nearly all gcd's are filled so you have to skip Slams and resort to HS to burn any excess rage.

From my experience with Execute range, using a Rend -> MS -> Execute (with benefit of the Slaughter debuff) priority indeed doesn't really allow for Slam or Heroic Strike usage in terms of rage availability. I had enough rage for the occasional HS at the same time (especially if Deadly Calm was up again at some point in < 20%) but that's really it. I'm not sure how it would compare to skipping rend and just going through a MS/Execute-only cycle, but here is what I was doing:

- Prioritized MS > Execute for the purpose of getting the Lambs to the Slaughter buff up for my next Execute.
- The cycle then looks something like MS -> Execute -> X
- For X, I would either reapply rend, use another Execute or Overpower.
- I tried the occasional overpower to see how well allocating the Slaughter buff only to Execute worked. Weaving in the occasional OP when Rend didn't need refreshing was at least the better decision for rage conservation.
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In conclusion, it's a no-brainer to hit MS over Execute because of that 30% modifier. The argument for using Rend during the < 20% cycle is the same as weaving in the occasional Overpower. If you're really having to watch your rage to ensure you have enough for your MS and Execute big hitters, it's probably more worthwhile to use Rend and Overpower during that time than to use Heroic Strike to burn rage.

#44 Belltoll

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 04:56 PM

Deleted for being wrong to avoid spreading bad information (see below).

#45 Rysidion

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 05:03 PM

OP has still been 100% crit rate for me in raids and because of that, the low rage cost, and the lowered GCD it should take priority over MS in the rotation. It doesn't crit as hard as MS but the crit rate makes the average OP>average MS every time.


MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.

#46 hellord

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 05:51 PM

MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.


After recent changes 20+rage Exe>OP if you have Ltts up. If you can delay OP to get another MS with Ltts is probably better aswell cause of the insane multiplier for MS. In general you can't do this consistently because of cd collisions. Depending on the gear and T4B cooldown, the rage treshold for Exe priority changes.
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#47 Belltoll

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 06:26 PM

MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.


After some review I removed my other post and also looked at my logs from this week which showed uptime of Enrage at 67.9% for all boss fights, as MS crits are required to keep that up, that further puts MS as top priority for rotation.

Would the low uptime of Enrage favor Crit on stat priority (over Mastery)?

#48 MystEU

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 07:35 AM

MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.

When the Taste for Blood proc won't be wasted (i.e. if it procs shortly after you use MS), there's no reason not to let both MS and Overpower benefit from the +30% Slaughter buff. If the timing of the next available Overpower won't overlap your GCDs, you can get a +30% MS by holding off on Overpower, gain the Slaughter buff again and use it on the TfB proc you were sitting on to get extra MS damage and not lose out on extra Overpower damage either. You will find yourself in situations like this a lot where you can make a choice between holding off on OP for additional damage to hit another MS while sometimes your timing won't work out that way. If it's going to proc again before you can MS again, just use it and keep your normal priority. A wasted proc is a far bigger penalty than the benefit you gain from hitting an extra +30% Mortal Strike. It's something to pay attention though because it is a nice DPS increase when you recognize situations where you can do this and take full advantage of it.

#49 jazman84

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 02:39 AM

The new Beta build has MS @ 10% healing but the Weapon dmg his skyrocketed to 185%! Add in the Glyph and we are talking 203.5% WD. Pretty nice. Mortal Strike - Spells - Sigrie
Slam Rage cost has dropped back to 15 as well, will be interesting if this changes the HS>Slam philosophy.

#50 MystEU

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:02 AM

The new Beta build has MS @ 10% healing but the Weapon dmg his skyrocketed to 185%! Add in the Glyph and we are talking 203.5% WD. Pretty nice. Mortal Strike - Spells - Sigrie
Slam Rage cost has dropped back to 15 as well, will be interesting if this changes the HS>Slam philosophy.

For Fury, changing Bloodsurge so it provides no rage cost as well was their solution for HS being a better button to push than Slam. If that gives any indication about their design intent, this change should reflect the same thing -- that they want HS to be the rage dump and not as big of a part of our damage (with Inner Rage apparently being another rage dump and not much else, but at this point I'm starting to doubt that will be worthwhile at all). They want us using Slam primarily over Heroic Strike but if the numbers say otherwise (damage per rage especially), naturally the Warrior community will learn towards whatever is the better choice. This might bring Slam a little more in line and a better choice vs. pooling rage for your next Heroic Strike, which happens pretty often. A lot of the time where I have a free space, I don't yet have enough rage for HS and have to pool a little. Right now, that yields higher damage but this could change. I look forward to seeing some number-crunching on how efficient Slam will be after that change. Pretty sexy MS damage buff though.

#51 Seerow

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:24 PM

Their intention for slam is still questionable. Let's look at Arms base rage generation with an ideal 3.7s weapon (slow weapons are still ideal even if fast weapons are slightly more desirable for rage gen because a lot of our damage is unnormalized weapon damage, unless all of our attacks are normalized and Im just misinformed)

10%-50.0625 rage
90%-30.0625 rage

3206.25 rage over 100 swings, 3.36 weapon speed (windfury only, hit capped, no haste from gear), 9.54 rage per second.


Rage Consumption:
Abilities used over 6 minutes: (240 GCDs)
Rend - 24
Mortal Strike - 80
Overpower - 60
Colossus Smash-24*


188 GCDs used. This leaves 52 gcds available for potential slams.

That is 3020 rage consumed over 6 minutes. Using the previously figured rage generation numbers, you have 3434 rage generated over that 6 minutes. Also every slam has an additional opportunity cost of 4.77 rage, so it costs effectively 19.77, which means you have enough rage for 20 slams. This leaves 32 additional GCDs to be filled with slam.

Before you can even start to think about heroic strike, outside of Deadly Calm, Bloodlust, or amazing RNG streaks, you need enough rage to fill every gcd with slam. This means you need about 4048 rage over 6 minutes, or 11.2 rage per second. This requires 17% haste on gear, which isn't very realistic except maybe for later tiers. This is where Fury's superior rage scaling with stats really shows through.

One possible exception is, if Bladestorm does end up strong enough to use in our normal rotation (it certainly isn't in 4.0, but on beta it's supposedly being buffed to 150% weapon damage per tick, which is much more potent and could make it worth pressing on single target), then it becomes an amazing gcd filler, using it 5 times over the 6 minute period takes up 20 gcds. While some of those are MSes you're losing, it also gives you a few extra Slams. As does Deadly Calm. Would this make up the full deficit? Not really, but it might bring the haste threshold on Slam down.


*I assumed an average proc rate on sudden death of about once every 15 seconds, as that reflects some logs I had seen early in beta, and the proc rate hasn't changed since. If anyone has more accurate information regarding that, or can effectively model the average proc of CS mathematically (I couldn't think of a good way to do it, my discrete math is a bit rusty).

#52 Aedilhild

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:01 PM

Deadly Calm has an interesting impact on costs and resources. Helpfully, rotations during the ability's 10 seconds are pretty predictable. Typical usage might begin with Colossus Smash. Optimal usage might include a Sudden Death proc in time for consecutive debuffs. Alternatively, a player might decide he can wait for neither a cooldown nor Sudden Death.

A) 2 Mortal Strikes, 2 Overpowers, 2 Slams, 1 Colossus Smash
B) 2 Mortal Strikes, 2 Overpowers, 2 Colossus Smashes, 1 Slam
C) 3 Mortal Strikes, 2 Overpowers, 2 Slams

The catch to Deadly Calm is that it doesn't just exempt a player from paying costs; it allows resource generation to continue, too, whereas rage can't be pooled beyond 100. Using Seerow's example, 98.7 rage is generated during Deadly Calm (lined up perfectly, the third swing occurs milliseconds after the buff fades, but for all intents and purposes within the time frame). Any unused rage above 1.3 will be lost, so the net change to generation per ability usage becomes ((98.7 - (rage - 1.3)) - 98.7). Assuming the player impeccably accounts for this, Deadly Calm does not deduct any rage from the 3554 generated.

The costs of Mortal Strikes, Overpowers and Colossus Smashes used during Deadly Calm, however, can be deducted from the budget. Per usage, rotation A saves 80 rage; B, 100 rage; C, 85 rage; for an average of 265 rage over six minutes. Finally, each Slam used during Deadly Calm can be applied to the bank of unused GCDs. Assuming a player uses each of the three Deadly Calm rotations over six minutes, that's five Slams.

So: rage consumed drops to 2755. The surplus of 799 rage allows for 40 Slams; adding Slams cast during Deadly Calm brings the total to 45.

#53 jazman84

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:40 AM

Wouldn't we still be better off using Heroic Strike while ignoring Slam outside of Deadly Calm?

#54 Yanthir

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:11 AM

Wouldn't we still be better off using Heroic Strike while ignoring Slam outside of Deadly Calm?


Yep.
Don't know why everyone suddenly takes Slam in his calculations again. It still is far more ineffective than HS - and will be even with 15 rage cost.

#55 Seerow

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:54 AM

Yep.
Don't know why everyone suddenly takes Slam in his calculations again. It still is far more ineffective than HS - and will be even with 15 rage cost.


It depends. If slam hitting for 300% weapon damage on beta goes live, Slam will certainly remain better. Assuming that's a bug and gets changed before Cata hits,and Slam hits for only 150% weapon damage base, it's going to come down to your stats.

But just for an example, take someone with a 359 3.6s weapon, and 10,000 attack power and 25% crit (for lack of me having a better idea of what level 85 raid buffed attack power and crit values are. If someone has a more accurate figure please provide it and we can refigure).

Heroic Strike will hit for 9000 damage. Increase that by 5% for stance, 10% for spec bonus, 15% for War Academy. That's 11954 damage base, with 24267 damage crits. Speccing into incite (since you are favoring heroic strike over Slam) gets you up to a 40% crit rate on Heroic Strike, plus Incite's bonus crit effect. I know there was a post a while ago with fancy charts saying what that effect actually translates to, but I don't want to dig through the threads to find it, so we'll say every other heroic strike is a crit, giving you effectively a 70% crit rate. This makes your average damage per heroic strike 20,573, or 685 damage per rage.

Slam will have an average base damage of 7223 (150% of weapon damage on a 3.6s 359 weapon). Increase that by 5% for stance, 10% for spec bonus, 15% for War Academy, and 20% for Improved Slam. This brings you up to 11512 base damage, and crits for 25673 (slam is also affected by Impale). Slam has a 30% crit rate thanks to Glyph of Slam, giving you 15760 average damage per slam.

But Slam does cost you .5s off your next auto attack. A white attack hits for 4815 damage on average, give it the passive buffs it's up to 5561, critting for 11290. A 25% crit rate gives you an average damage per hit of 6992. You lose .5s out of a 3.6s swing, which is 13.8% of the swing. Effective damage lost: 971.


Total slam damage gained: 14788. At the cost of 19.77 rage gives you 748 damage per rage, making it 10% more rage efficient than heroic strike, and thus more desirable to use. Please note I did not consider the mastery proc, because that would actually weight it in favor of slam further, as you would use 3 slams for every 2 heroic strikes, but it takes >7 slams before you lose a full white hit. Meaning prioritizing Slam over heroic strike gains you more chances at a mastery proc, while being the more efficient attack.



Higher Attack Power values relative to weapon damage will favor Heroic Strike, as will higher Haste values since Slam scales negatively with haste. But Increased Mastery weights things in favor of Slam, and I believe extra Crit will too, due to devaluing the benefits of Incite while making Impale more valuable.

A lot of this depends on the stats we're looking at. I'd love to see the stats expected of a tier 11 geared Arms warrior, if anyone is on Beta and has that available.



And @Aedilhild, thank you, I obviously didn't account for Deadly Calm fully. So it seems like even baseline we'll be close to gcd capped if we manage rage and DC properly. That said we are assuming ideal scenarios where it can always wait for the next gcd. If you get a couple of back to back Blood Frenzy procs, that will not be possible, and those are the situations I expect to see most of our HSing outside of DC/BL.



Edit: I just realized my original RPS numbers didn't include the 1 rage per 3 seconds from AM. This brings Arms RPS up to 9.87 base, and gives an extra 120 rage to work with over the theoretical 6 minute fight, which is a little more than 6 more slams, bringing your base slams up to 40, and 45 including those cast during Deadly Calm, which brings it really close to the theoretical slam cap we were looking at.

#56 Aedilhild

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:41 PM

This brings Arms RPS up to 9.87 base, and gives an extra 120 rage to work with over the theoretical 6 minute fight, which is a little more than 6 more slams, bringing your base slams up to 40, and 45 including those cast during Deadly Calm, which brings it really close to the theoretical slam cap we were looking at.

If you want to start introducing rage buttons, keeping glyphed Berserker Rage on cooldown from, say, the 15-second mark adds 60 rage (increasing Slams to 48). Battle Shouts (Booming Voice untalented) not only add 20 rage but displace unused GCDs; two Battle Shouts and two Slams should bring the total of used GCDs to 240.

#57 Seerow

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:53 PM

If you want to start introducing rage buttons, keeping glyphed Berserker Rage on cooldown from, say, the 15-second mark adds 60 rage (increasing Slams to 48). Battle Shouts (Booming Voice untalented) not only add 20 rage but displace unused GCDs; two Battle Shouts and two Slams should bring the total of used GCDs to 240.


I was only looking at the passive rage generation, I just realized that Anger Management needed to be included in that. I suppose you're right that adding ZR and Battle Shout brings you up to 100% Slam (or at least gcd) usage base. And since it only took 2 battle shouts, you could use 6 battle shouts instead and end up with a bit more leeway than anticipated.

Of course this still assumes perfect rage management, and you will probably lose some to being forced to use HS to bleed off rage before/after a DC and after lucky back to back procs on Blood Frenzy, but Arms rage generation is actually looking to be a lot more tightly tuned than I had initially thought, from a theoretical standpoint.


I really can't wait 'til Cata hits live so I can try the rotation with CS and see how it feels in practice.

#58 Jameth

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 07:46 AM

As a long time Arms aficionado, I wanted to say that I am enthused by the paradigm shift by Blizzard to enable it as a valid PVE spec rather than simply relegating it to merely 'the PVP spec' and as such am overjoyed to see an increase in theorycrafting regarding it.

In keeping with developing the theorycraft regarding Arms, I wanted to raise a topic for discussion. I want to challenge the prevailing assumption that Haste is a bad stat for Arms.

I haven't done any mathematical analysis for this (and will not be able to until my 'finals' are done) but I question if the prevailing wisdom regarding Haste is flawed. Currently, this is based on a 'gut feeling' but I would welcome any further research into the matter to validate or discredit the position. I will try to elaborate why I have this feeling.

Premise 1: The ability to ignore armour via Colossus Smash has the most significant effect on a warrior's damage out of any buff/debuff.

Premise 2: Through Sudden Death, Arms warriors have the ability to affect the uptime of this debuff.

Premise 3: Discounting a ICD on Sudden Death (which seems relatively unlikely given its previous incarnation and relatively low proc chance), the affecting factor on its uptime is attacks per second.

Premise 4: There is a hard limit on the number of special attacks an Arms warrior can use (that is, GCD capping) and as such a limit on the amount that additional rage can affect attacks per second.

Premise 5: After GCD capping, the only mechanics available to increase an Arms warrior's attacks per second are 1) Haste and 2) Mastery

Premise 6: Mastery itself benefits from increasing Haste levels as this also provides more chances for it to proc.

With these things in mind, it seems to me that increasing haste can have a direct impact on an Arms Warrior's DPS above and beyond white DPS and rage generation. It would seem to be the case that this improvement would be noticeable up until the probability that Sudden Death will proc within 6 seconds (and thus equate to 100% uptime of the Colossus Smash debuff) approaches 1.

While it may be possible that the increase in attacks per second from haste is less valuable than focusing on other more conventional DPS stats, from what I have read it seems that Colossus Smash uptime has not been given sufficient investigation in the determination of Arms DPS metrics. Therefore, I suggest that we consider further the significance of the matter and how much effect Haste has on it.

PS. Aedilhild, I've been a big fan of your posts over on the official Cataclysm forums.

#59 Elimbras

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 05:12 PM

Well, I would say it otherwise. Whilst you're not GCD capped, haste is the uncappable stat that has the best rating-percentage ratio. If 1% crit and 1% haste are roughly comparable, haste wins in that case.
After the GCD-cap, haste affect only your white swings, ie. less than half your dps. 1% haste needs to be significantly better than 1% crit for haste rating to be superior.
What you say is true for the interest of haste. It will increase the value of haste. But is it that big that it increases the value of 1% haste for more than 20% ?

#60 Seerow

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 06:03 PM

1) I assume when you say GCD capped you mean Heroic Strike capped. We did determine that Slam usage can gcd cap you if you manage rage properly throughout a fight, though there isn't a ton of leeway there, so you will basically hit heroic strike only during (and likely around, so as to not waste rage) deadly calm, bloodlust, and to bleed off extra rage from RNG streaks. So extra haste will up your heroic strike usage, and give you more leeway to use those gcds on slam without risking capping rage. Since we figured rage on auto attacks at 9.54 per second with windfury up, a 1% increase in haste is .0954 rage per second. ie 1% haste = 1 heroic strike every 314 seconds. 10% haste will net you a bit less than 2 heroic strikes per minute. It's a nice benefit. It also seems highly improbably that HS will ever be cappable as arms. The amount of haste required to get that many heroic strikes, even while accounting for deadly calm is just highly unlikely.


2) Haste will scale auto attack damage. For Arms Auto Attacks are currently 10% of your damage done, and as far as I can tell nothing in cata changes to up that. So 1% haste translates into a .1% overall damage increase here.


Those are the two easiest things to figure. 10% haste translates to ~2 heroic strikes per minute and increasing your total damage by 1% via increasing auto attacks. Additionally any extra attacks gained have an extra chance to proc mastery, which helps some. Compared to 10% crit or mastery though, that's pretty pathetic all told.


3) The hardest thing to model would be the CS uptime increase from haste increasing SD procs. I tried working on a sim, but am getting pretty wonky results that I highly doubt are right or relevant. I'll keep working on it, but if anyone else can sim it, or has an easy way to model it mathematically, that would help a lot.


4) Also worth keeping in mind is that as haste increases, the effective damage cost and rage cost of slam increase. At 10% haste Slam goes from costing effectively 19.77 rage, to 20.247 rage. You also go from losing 15.3% of a weapon swing's damage to 16.8% of a weapon swing's damage. These penalties are pretty minor, but then again so are haste's benefits. It probably won't be enough to make HS more efficient than slam, but it is enough to add up to a minor penalty and seriously cut into haste's rage scaling benefits.



edit: I finished my sim for CS uptime, and am reasonably certain that it is accurate at this point. If anyone makes something that contradicts my findings I'll consider it, but modeling it over 150,000 seconds assuming you are gcd locked and waiting for any amount of time to use it sooner is undesirable(ie you have to wait until the nearest gcd to use your next CS after a proc or it becomes available), with a 3.6s weapon, I got an average time between CS uses of 16.1 seconds. With Windfury available, reducing swing speed to 3.27, I had an average time between procs of 15.7s.

This is already looking pretty bad for haste, given a 10% increase in attack speed is a increase from 37.2% uptime to a 38.2% uptime, hardly noticeable.

But adding in an extra 10% haste on top of Windfury gets you a swing speed of 2.97 brings the time between procs to a 15.3s. Giving you an uptime of 39.2%.

The benefit is there, but seems to be pretty marginal. And this is even with my sim being a bit basic, and not tracking CS debuff overlap (ie I was always using CS when available, even if it procs within 6 seconds of the last, but in my uptimes I assumed it was always getting the full benefit of the debuff). If you include overlap, you'll likely see that usage drop off slightly, probably not more than half a second, but hey half a second is the difference between no haste and 10% haste.

If somebody wants to crunch numbers on total damage percentages affected by this, the extra HS, and extra swings/mastery procs combined, I'd be glad to see them, but just eyeballing it I'm doubting it will be even close to competitive with Crit/Mastery.




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