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ShadowCraft: Rogue spreadsheet for 4.0


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#41 Aldriana

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 08:29 PM

I'm wondering how difficult it would be time-wise to go ahead and add either a manual value for spell hit cap or spell hit buffs/debuffs in the buffs menu. At present the spell hit cap on it seems to assume no raid buffs to lower it at all, and it's giving me some strange reforge/gem choices as a result. (It's saying I need more hit than I actually would in any real practice.)


Well, there *aren't* any raid buffs that increase your hit, so that actually seems pretty reasonable for the short term.

In the long term, we do plan to add configurable buff/debuff support and the like, yes.

#42 Mechapanda

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 08:32 PM

i'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but your system doesn't seem to like mastery for mut. is that intended?

#43 Luckyspoon

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 08:54 PM

i'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but your system doesn't seem to like mastery for mut. is that intended?


Did you change the aep values in the top right to the assassination aep values? If not, mastery is not your only issue :)

#44 Mechapanda

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 08:55 PM

good thoughts there smarty pants :)

ty for telling me :)

edit: after changing EP values, correct spec, it's still suggesting having 199 mastery even though i'm a gnome, is that counting the 3 expertise from daggers? or is it still telling me to have 199 just to have 199?

#45 Murolith

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 01:51 AM

Well, there *aren't* any raid buffs that increase your hit, so that actually seems pretty reasonable for the short term.

In the long term, we do plan to add configurable buff/debuff support and the like, yes.


Majority of question withdrawn on the basis of my willful ignorance of non-rogue class changes as of 4.0.1.

#46 StoicRoivaS

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 01:52 AM

good thoughts there smarty pants :)

ty for telling me :)

edit: after changing EP values, correct spec, it's still suggesting having 199 mastery even though i'm a gnome, is that counting the 3 expertise from daggers? or is it still telling me to have 199 just to have 199?


As noted a couple posts above, it's set to aim for 26 expertise by default, which will be correct for lvl 85, but is not correct at the moment. Secondly, you can rig your racial in by simply adjusting the boss dodge chance to be in line with what your actual needed expertise would reflect, if that makes sense. If my rough math is right, you'll want to set your boss dodge chance to 4.75, which should cause the reforging to aim for 19 expertise (~146 exp rating).

All of that is assuming you meant expertise and not mastery in the above quote, of course.

#47 Pyriana

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:36 AM

It appears that ShadowCraft does not include either normal or heroic, even though it's not thrown, it's a valid ranged slot item, and I would imagine the 284 version would be BIS...
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#48 jeepinchris

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 01:04 PM

In its current form it doesn't seem as though there are any calculations for Heartpierce and Black Bruise procs, just the base +stamina on equip.

#49 Milkdeznuts

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:33 PM

Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong, I changed the EP value of expertise to 5.6 ( boss dodge &)

but its still telling me to reforge my gear into expertise even tho I'm over the Expertise cap, can someone help me on this? I'm not sure what Im doing wrong.

#50 Raconzor

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:59 PM

Did you change the expertise EP or the boss dodge chance just under that? Setting expertise EP to 5.6 will cause all recommendations to return expertise ...

Heartpierce and Black Bruise - I do not believe any procs are currently modeled - that's what the folks at ShadowCraft-Engine are working on, among other things.

#51 codereaver

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:29 PM

Another thing to check is that if u were gemming exp or hit at all, it changes your reforge to exp/hit and then regems I had this same issue till i realized it had done this.

#52 Jestyr991

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:38 PM

Is there a way to reset the character you uploaded? I mistakenly uploaded my toon in a full pvp set and gear and was hoping there was just a way to recheck the armory on it instead of manually swapping everything out.

#53 Mechapanda

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:02 PM

As noted a couple posts above, it's set to aim for 26 expertise by default, which will be correct for lvl 85, but is not correct at the moment. Secondly, you can rig your racial in by simply adjusting the boss dodge chance to be in line with what your actual needed expertise would reflect, if that makes sense. If my rough math is right, you'll want to set your boss dodge chance to 4.75, which should cause the reforging to aim for 19 expertise (~146 exp rating).

All of that is assuming you meant expertise and not mastery in the above quote, of course.


although, with 24 expertise on game, the expertise tooltip is showing me having a .50% dodge chance so i really have no idea, using 264 t10 pants and 277 ikfirus's sack puts me at like 28 with the racial, when not reforging expertise away

#54 StoicRoivaS

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:20 AM

although, with 24 expertise on game, the expertise tooltip is showing me having a .50% dodge chance so i really have no idea, using 264 t10 pants and 277 ikfirus's sack puts me at like 28 with the racial, when not reforging expertise away


The in-game estimates are using the old calc where 26 expertise is correct. Recent findings and blue posts confirm that until we get to lvl 85 end-game content, the correct value needed to drop dodges off of the table is actually only 22 exp (~172) rating. Furthermore, if your racial grants you 3 expertise when using daggers, you should only need 19 expertise, which like I mentioned should be ~146 exp rating. To simulate this within the roguething tool, you should set your boss dodge chance to 4.75 down in the box that says Boss Dodge (%). *Do not* change the box that says Expertise Rating to 4.75. Leave that box set at whatever your approximate weight for expertise is (2.6 for mut and 2.2 for combat). Make sense?

#55 Mechapanda

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:21 AM

The in-game estimates are using the old calc where 26 expertise is correct. Recent findings and blue posts confirm that until we get to lvl 85 end-game content, the correct value needed to drop dodges off of the table is actually only 22 exp (~172) rating. Furthermore, if your racial grants you 3 expertise when using daggers, you should only need 19 expertise, which like I mentioned should be ~146 exp rating. To simulate this within the roguething tool, you should set your boss dodge chance to 4.75 down in the box that says Boss Dodge (%). *Do not* change the box that says Expertise Rating to 4.75. Leave that box set at whatever your approximate weight for expertise is (2.6 for mut and 2.2 for combat). Make sense?


yeah, i understood the boss dodge thing from the start :)

#56 StoicRoivaS

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:48 AM

I'm not entirely sure if this thread is the place to discuss the RogueThing tool or not, or even if someone who can answer my question reads the EJ forums to begin with, but I'll try none the less I suppose.

I originally reforged my gear based on just a base knowledge of the class mechanics and how I felt to best optimize the total dps gain of reforging within those mechanics: try to nail expertise on the exact rating I wanted, spell hit on the exact rating I wanted, best stats past that point when applicable, reforge pieces with our best non-capping stat (haste) on them when possible so that later pieces can go into haste, etc. In doing so I ended up with a piece which appeared to be optimal not to reforge at all (hit and haste with the hit being entirely spell hit). After coming across the RogueThing tool and adjusting weights and boss dodge, I checked out the auto-reforge tool to see if what I came up with was optimal or not. Interestingly enough, the tool recommended something fairly substantially different. So I jotted down the total EP readout of the suggested reforging and then plugged my own guess into the tool, only to find that my rough eyeball of the best reforge gained me 33 EP over the suggested one.

So with that said, I'm pretty curious as to what sort of methodology the auto-reforge routine takes, and possibly even more so, what the truly best method is (aside from brute-forcing every combination of course).

To outline my method, if it helps spur some ideas in others, I first listed every numerical value of stats that I could confidently gain (i.e. dumping crit) on every piece except for my mentioned piece which had hit/haste. With these values all listed, I went through a trial and error process until I found combinations that produced exactly 172 expertise. With these values crossed off the list, I went through another trial process which brought me as close as possible to the spell hit cap (I think I ended up 3 over). From here the rest was fairly straight-forward, just reforge crit into whatever stat was left that was the best.

Now I'm not saying my choice was the absolute 100% best, and in fact I'm fairly sure it's probably not, given the restrictions on reforging (must pick a stat non-present) and the sheet number of possible combinations, but I do find it at least interesting that my crude guess beat the reforging routine in the tool by 33 EP.

So, with all the exposition out of the way, how does this tool produce its result, and more importantly, how should it produce it's result? If reforging could add any stat regardless of what the item started with, I think the optimal path would be fairly close to what I outlined in my thought process, but as long as we have that restriction to work around, I think the truly best path is a bit more complicated than people realize.

#57 Aldriana

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:53 AM

I think the thing to keep in mind is that while that algorithm works pretty well at the moment, it is fairly tightly coupled to the relative stat values right now in ways that needn't be true in general. Hence, coming up with a more mathematical approach based on EP values and whatever and applying an hillclimbing algorithm or some such is likely to provide more general results than "max expertise, hit the spell hit cap, and work from there". Particularly since there are secondary considerations which can be subtle, for instance: as combat it's better to reforge crit/haste items to expertise and hit so the crit/xxx items can be reforged to haste, and the tradeoffs for doing so versus hitting the caps exactly may not be obvious.

#58 StoicRoivaS

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:37 AM

I think the thing to keep in mind is that while that algorithm works pretty well at the moment, it is fairly tightly coupled to the relative stat values right now in ways that needn't be true in general. Hence, coming up with a more mathematical approach based on EP values and whatever and applying an hillclimbing algorithm or some such is likely to provide more general results than "max expertise, hit the spell hit cap, and work from there". Particularly since there are secondary considerations which can be subtle, for instance: as combat it's better to reforge crit/haste items to expertise and hit so the crit/xxx items can be reforged to haste, and the tradeoffs for doing so versus hitting the caps exactly may not be obvious.


Right. Like I mentioned, one of my aims was to reforge items with haste before items without, precisely so that later items would return more when it came time to reforge into the best "non-capping" stat. As far as a general solution goes, I don't see why EP values are relevant at all. What truly matters is their relative order to one another. If the best stat a rogue could ever get is special-hit, that is, hit rating below the special cap, then it doesn't particularly matter if the EP of such a thing is 20 or 200, the best-case general solution would return equal results either way.

As to your closing about the non-obvious trade-offs pertaining to exactly capping haste pieces versus over-capping from non-haste pieces, this was basically what I meant by saying that it was likely my "solution" was non-optimal as well. I didn't go through and double check if landing 2 expertise over the cap would yield greater results due to firstly reforging pieces with "better" base stats. I guess mostly I'm interested in how the routine is literally coded, and how we think it's optimal to implement such a thing.

While a hill climbing algorithm sounds reasonable, it seems like the issue with local maximum versus global maximum is a pretty serious one in this application. For instance, if we apply a priority order based on EP (or even just a relative ordering) and decide we want to go: special-hit > spell-hit > expertise > haste > mastery > white-hit > crit, the algorithm may start to realize it has a ton of room to play with once it's no longer constrained to "capping stats". Of course if it tries to lock in on precise caps (as I did in my cursory approach), it would need to be pretty advanced to be able to back up possibly multiple steps (to spell-hit) if what it found was only a local max. I wouldn't feel very confident in an algorithm that exactly imitated what I outlined as my thought process, though it would certainly get you "close".

I think if I were personally coding such a thing, I would run through a handful of methodologies that would get me "close" and then simply compare them. For example, my method could be described as trying to gain the most EP per reforge as I went through my items at the vendor. Subsequently, you can imagine a method in which the aim was to gain the most EP per item by first looking at the "worst" items and trying to get the most gain from them on an item-to-item basis (as I noted my neck ended up being not reforged at all, which is "bad" in terms of wanting to take advantage of the reforging system). Comparing these results, along with another method or two possibly, would make me feel far more confident in my results as the coder.

#59 worschd

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:05 PM

It seems to me that the weapon calculation is completly broke. The tool only looks at the stats of the weapon and not at procs (as already mentioned), speed and dps. So the ranking isnt really meaningful.

#60 Galluf

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:49 PM

Right. Like I mentioned, one of my aims was to reforge items with haste before items without, precisely so that later items would return more when it came time to reforge into the best "non-capping" stat. As far as a general solution goes, I don't see why EP values are relevant at all. What truly matters is their relative order to one another. If the best stat a rogue could ever get is special-hit, that is, hit rating below the special cap, then it doesn't particularly matter if the EP of such a thing is 20 or 200, the best-case general solution would return equal results either way.


That only holds true in situations where you are able to decide how much of each stat you want to reforge. Lets take the EP given in the 4.0.1 post for mutilate spec and say that you are 5 points from the spell hit cap. Lets also assume that you have a piece of gear with crit and expertise on it. The piece has 100 crit on it so you be able to reforge 40 points of that to another stat.

Using the method you mentioned that piece would be reforged to hit because the spell hit is the highest relative stat. This would give an EP value of 5*3.2+35*1.8 = 79

Now using the method that accounts for the EP values it would recommend reforging to haste. 40*2.2=88.

As you can see there is a gain of 9 EP by reforging to haste over hit.




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