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2.1: Graveyards, Flight Paths and Trinkets!


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#41 Praetorian

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:43 PM

That Illumination change...hurts, if true.

Most healers that I raid with will jokingly say "nerf paladins", but they generally agree that something needs to be done to improve the healing trees of other classes. This Illumination change totally came out of left field...perhaps from the same designers that are brewing up the latest set of alchemy 'fixes'?

Now what we would end up with is the healer population in raids going up to meet new demands in healing endurance, which lowers overall raid dps, which makes the dps races that seem to be a hallmark of TBC raiding that much harder to win. I suppose the Paladins that gear up in the direction of +healing/mp5 rather than +scrit/+healing won't feel it as much, but for those that have invested countless hours gathering spell crit gear, this is devastating.

Hopefully this change doesn't make it past the conceptual stages, and instead meaningful improvements to other healing classes in terms of raid utility/endurance are applied.

Paladins basically can't run out of mana if they play correctly, and they can accomplish this with blues/Kara/t4 gear. All t5 and t6 can offer them right now is lots of +heal for bigger heals, since they don't really need longevity. That's a problem.

Looking at a WWS parse from Morogrim last night...

I was #2 on Effective Healing, with low overhealing. I regained 10.6k mana from 4 Super Mana pots, 5.8k mana from Mana Tide, 5.3k mana from BoW, 1.5k from Mana Spring, and 1.5k from my Warmth of Forgiveness. I had mana oil, mageblood, mp5 food, etc., on me. I was completely OOM and running on fumes for the last 5%.

A paladin with objectively worse gear than me was just behind me at #3 on Healing. He got back 20.3k mana from Illumination alone, not to mention another 4.6k from Spiritual Attunement being healed after Earthquakes/Graves.

I consider that excessive. Even paladins in my guild agree it's not unreasonable. A paladin in a shadow priest group (due to the Attunement synergy) will still have infinite mana anyway. With the proposed Inspiration change, this paladin still would've regained over 10k mana from Illumination, and had to use fewer pots/consumables to equal my mana pool.

#42 Cryect

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:54 PM

The pvp graveyard (which alliance possesses 90% of the time) isn't good enough for you?


If your spirit spawned there it would be great instead you spawn on the east side of the lake (I assume the horde GY is the west side of the lake). That GY only works for the 5 man instances.

#43 Keline

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:55 PM

Gurg please don't forget that we don't regenerate from spirit as we don't have these talents. That's regeneration you don't parse.

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.
I agree the shadow priest stuff needs to be fixed, Overhealing should not trigger SA.

And I can definatly run out of mana if I am doing Gruul HS healing with only 1 other healer. If a Paladin is always at 90+ mana, he's not healing enough (expect shadow priest). Or you've brought too many healers.

#44 Praetorian

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:58 PM

Gurg please don't forget that we don't regenerate from spirit as we don't have these talents. That's regeneration you don't parse.

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.
I agree the shadow priest stuff needs to be fixed, Overhealing should not trigger SA.

And I can definatly run out of mana if I am doing Gruul HS healing with only 1 other healer. If a Paladin is always at 90+ mana, he's not healing enough (expect shadow priest). Or you've brought too many healers.

I don't regenerate from spirit either. That's why I didn't compare to a priest or druid.

The thing is, paladins would still be superb single-target healing and utility, and the fact is that they stack better than basically any other pure healer. If you have 8 healers, you probably want something like four paladins, a druid, a shaman, and a couple of priests. Four paladins means your whole raid can get every blessing they might want. Multiples of any other healer are only as good as the raw healing they bring to the raid.

As a raid leader, Illumination being 50% would not make me cease bringing 3-4 paladins when possible.

#45 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:59 PM

I've always thought the effectiveness of Paladin direct healing was countered by its complete inflexibility. There aren't a lot of options for a paladin to deal with AE damage for example, but they're awesome at keeping a one target up and that's really about it. A big problem is that once you aren't spamming Flash any more due to HP/sec needs, your large heals will eat your mana bar in very short order even if you downrank since they're more inefficient, and making use of your other talents to mitigate that is a big deal right now. I'm concerned primarily because there are 5 other talents that indirectly feed off of Illumination in the Holy tree, and slashing its effectiveness has a chilling effect on the rest of the tree as well. If you take away a large chunk of the endurance that a paladin has there isn't a lot left in terms of healing that makes them desirable over another healing class, at which point they're relegated to average healers and buff bots or sub-par tanks. I don't think it'll cripple the class to the point of unplayability, but it's really going to hurt.

#46 Lithose

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:02 PM

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.


Anything to bring to a raid as in? If you mean utility, then I have to disagree, you bring the most utility, of any healing class...As said before, just their blessings (Discluding aura and cleanses ect) will see to that.

#47 Failure

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:04 PM

Gurg please don't forget that we don't regenerate from spirit as we don't have these talents. That's regeneration you don't parse.

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.
I agree the shadow priest stuff needs to be fixed, Overhealing should not trigger SA.

And I can definatly run out of mana if I am doing Gruul HS healing with only 1 other healer. If a Paladin is always at 90+ mana, he's not healing enough (expect shadow priest). Or you've brought too many healers.


Shaman don't get much from spirit either. Priests/druids are the spirit healers. Also, why would you ever want to dedicate 2 healers to something like Gruul HS healing when 1 healer can do it fine? Who cares about mana efficiency/etc/etc if you're using an entire extra raid slot so you can sustain it longer?

I don't regenerate from spirit either. That's why I didn't compare to a priest or druid.

The thing is, paladins would still be superb single-target healing and utility, and the fact is that they stack better than basically any other pure healer. If you have 8 healers, you probably want something like four paladins, a druid, a shaman, and a couple of priests. Four paladins means your whole raid can get every blessing they might want. Multiples of any other healer are only as good as the raw healing they bring to the raid.

As a raid leader, Illumination being 50% would not make me cease bringing 3-4 paladins when possible.


Have to disagree with you here. I would never think of bringing a 4th paladin, I think that's a huge waste of a raid slot. 3 paladins, 2 priests, 2 shaman, 1 druid would be nice, and if I had to take more, it would definitely be priests or shaman, not paladins. Some fights, the 3rd paladin is even overkill, and I'd prefer another type of healer.

#48 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:07 PM

Anything to bring to a raid as in? If you mean utility, then I have to disagree, you bring the most utility, of any healing class...As said before, just their blessings (Discluding aura and cleanses ect) will see to that.


Buffs aren't utility. They're raid-wise power enhancers, yes, but it's no substitute for having a more difficult game-time decision than "big heal" or "little heal". Even with this change, in terms of power a paladin at the very least the equal of any other healer in a raid, but in a 5 man there's really no substitute for a group-ish heal on an AE boss, even if you can only blow it once or it only hits 3 people at a time. That's utility, not a 15 minute buff.

Ironically, raiding erases much of that flexibility by focusing the damage in a single place.

#49 Mearis

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:13 PM

A big problem is that once you aren't spamming Flash any more due to HP/sec needs, your large heals will eat your mana bar in very short order even if you downrank since they're more inefficient, and making use of your other talents to mitigate that is a big deal right now.


Without factoring in illumination, on a target with BoL, HL is the single most efficient single target heal unless you are comparing it to healing wave with a full stack of healing way and over 2k healing.

With illumination factored in, no heal is even close to approaching it for mana efficiency.

#50 Plea

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:14 PM

Continueing with the patch notes, here's another warrior dps nerf! :)

I wonder how long they will keep reducing the coefficients of our dps; as they will always have to. Rage doesnt seem to be 'normalized' at all, it's still a linear function of damage dealt, just a bit flatter. 5% cut from flurry will just make the curvature smaller, but the big picture doesnt change a lot.

#51 Keline

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:15 PM

Anything to bring to a raid as in? If you mean utility, then I have to disagree, you bring the most utility, of any healing class...As said before, just their blessings (Discluding aura and cleanses ect) will see to that.


I meant the holy trinity - tank / Healing / DPS
we only bring healing. Every other healer class can take one or even both other jobs.

#52 Mearis

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:16 PM

also, those patch notes are most likely fake, why are people panicking so much about them?

#53 Trouble

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:20 PM

The problem is that the usefulness of most group heals is much less than it would seem. Prayer of Healing hits everyone in the group for like what...1.7k or so? With a three second cast. So in that time you can pop off two Flash of Lights or 1.5 Holy Lights for much greater mana efficiency. The only time Prayer of Healing wins is if 3-5 people in your group need that entire heal, and even then spamming FoL is almost as good. Flash of Light and Holy Light combined with Illumination and high crit rates are just so damned good that they outdo nearly everything else in nearly all situations. Paladins don't *need* other heals because the two they have blow everything else out of the water.

#54 Failure

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:20 PM

Without factoring in illumination, on a target with BoL, HL is the single most efficient single target heal unless you are comparing it to healing wave with a full stack of healing way and over 2k healing.

With illumination factored in, no heal is even close to approaching it for mana efficiency.


Huh? How did you get this "fact"? I just compared with a paladin in my guild, same amount of +heal roughly, he does about the same as my gheal for 140 more mana (240 more if I get my 2pc t5 and it tops the tank off)? And if PoM bounces back to the tank even once, it completely destroys both of those, if it never bounces, it's still nearly as efficient and takes 0 human reaction time/etc.

The problem is that the usefulness of most group heals is much less than it would seem. Prayer of Healing hits everyone in the group for like what...1.7k or so? With a three second cast. So in that time you can pop off two Flash of Lights or 1.5 Holy Lights for much greater mana efficiency. The only time Prayer of Healing wins is if 3-5 people in your group need that entire heal, and even then spamming FoL is almost as good. Flash of Light and Holy Light combined with Illumination and high crit rates are just so damned good that they outdo nearly everything else in nearly all situations. Paladins don't *need* other heals because the two they have blow everything else out of the water.


2k on PoH, takes 1k mana... You can do ~5 flash of lights for a little less mana, probably 1 of which will crit (between 1 and 2 avg). So you spend over 2x as long, for a little mana efficiency? Now let's not forget that any fight where I may PoH now and then, I will inner focus it, so I heal 10k HP for 0 mana. Oh, and if it's constant AoE dmg (Sapphiron) downranked renew -still- beats both

#55 Mearis

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:23 PM

Huh? How did you get this "fact"? I just compared with a paladin in my guild, same amount of +heal roughly, he does about the same as my gheal for 140 more mana (240 more if I get my 2pc t5 and it tops the tank off)? And if PoM bounces back to the tank even once, it completely destroys both of those, if it never bounces, it's still nearly as efficient and takes 0 human reaction time/etc.


Blessing of light makes holy light absurdly efficient, expecially at low levels of healing.

#56 Praetorian

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:25 PM

Continueing with the patch notes, here's another warrior dps nerf! :)

I wonder how long they will keep reducing the coefficients of our dps; as they will always have to. Rage doesnt seem to be 'normalized' at all, it's still a linear function of damage dealt, just a bit flatter. 5% cut from flurry will just make the curvature smaller, but the big picture doesnt change a lot.

Bear in mind there may be broader mechanics changes that make this necessary. If they made changes that boost all melee DPS across the board, then maybe in that new environment warriors really did need a tweak or two. Wait and see the whole picture.

#57 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:27 PM

Without factoring in illumination, on a target with BoL, HL is the single most efficient single target heal unless you are comparing it to healing wave with a full stack of healing way and over 2k healing.

With illumination factored in, no heal is even close to approaching it for mana efficiency.


Part of the problem with that is it requires BoL which probably means giving up Kings in a 5-man, which can be the difference between insta-gib and not on some fights. Theoretical efficiency aside, a bad run of non-crits and you'll blow through your mana faster than any other healer. BoL is a flat amount applied after the rest of the modifiers, which means you can downrank Flash and still receive full modifier on it. I haven't run the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure there's a point at which Flash is still more efficient. Anyway, that's a theorycrafting thread and this isn't.

The "fake" patch notes named the 4 Darkmoon cards exactly and also nailed some specific changes to SSC that have been confirmed by Blizzard. Chances are pretty good they're at least mostly legitimate.

#58 BeeLz

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:27 PM

Buffs aren't utility. They're raid-wise power enhancers, yes, but it's no substitute for having a more difficult game-time decision than "big heal" or "little heal". Even with this change, in terms of power a paladin at the very least the equal of any other healer in a raid, but in a 5 man there's really no substitute for a group-ish heal on an AE boss, even if you can only blow it once or it only hits 3 people at a time. That's utility, not a 15 minute buff.

Ironically, raiding erases much of that flexibility by focusing the damage in a single place.


But then again you can be hit while healing. As a priest my biggest problem is actually survivability on trashmobs. If I have to heal for 8k after 3 secs in a fight, I have to do this and will get the mob on me and instantly die, granted I have fade but on multipack trash without much CC it isn't going to save my ass. But that's 5 man content, in raidcontent a paladin brings just as much utility as a priest imo.
As a priest I use renew, greater heal and pom in raids and flash heal in very few encounters.
I might not be objective but I do think priests might need some buffs, mainly some changes in the holy tree like a decent working circle of healing some alternative for soulwell and maybe some extra mana efficiency or "emergency" talents. And ofcourse there's the horrible itemization which will hopefully be fixed in 2.1.

#59 heel

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:28 PM

If you have 8 healers, you probably want something like four paladins, a druid, a shaman, and a couple of priests.

As a raid leader, Illumination being 50% would not make me cease bringing 3-4 paladins when possible.


We had great success with a 5-1-1-1 setup about a month ago, and would probably still be running with something similar were it not for attrition.

#60 Failure

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 11:29 PM

Blessing of light makes holy light absurdly efficient, expecially at low levels of healing.


I'm well aware, but at the serious end-game raiding level (and by that I mean, "Tailored" level), my gheal is more effiecient than any paladin's holy light. And we don't even bring enough paladins to always have BoL on our entire raid.

Once I have 2pc t5, I think even with illumination taken into effect, I will be more efficient with gheal, than paladins will be with holy light. It's already 140 mana cheaper than max rank holy light.




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