Jump to content


Photo

Blood | DK endgame tanking [4.x]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
830 replies to this topic

#21 dr_AllCOM3

dr_AllCOM3

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 985 posts

Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:43 PM

It's tougher to do more complicated tests, but at least it definitely shows using death strike once does not reset your 'damage taken over the last 5 seconds' to 0. It seems like it just uses a sliding sum of damage taken in the previous 5 seconds regardless of what else is going on.


Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.
I've added some more options to my rune addon and it should now have everything you want.
There is a debug modus available (/ddr debug), where you get more data for BS and DS.

#22 kelben

kelben

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 147 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:19 AM

Does the shield absorb itself count as dmg taken during the last 5 seconds?
Haste is the devil...

#23 Yakobo15

Yakobo15

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:16 AM

Not that I've been able to notice using bloodshield tracker, other absorbs don't seem to add to it either so it's actual damage taken.

#24 Lichloathe

Lichloathe

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 74 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:29 AM

If the question you're asking is:
"Does the absorb from Blood Shield reduce your Death Strike heal if it's within the 5 second window?"

The answer is yes.

#25 grukthar

grukthar

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:30 AM

A couple of quick questions I'd be interested in getting opinions on;

My current gemming scheme has been to socket stam in all blue sockets (obviously) then match red/yellow with stam hybrid gems. My question being would you value mastery/stam higher than parry/stam or vise versa? With the way healer mana is in the current game I'd almost lean toward all avoidance but mastery seems to be blizzards answer to our lack of block so it definitely has a pretty high mitigation value itself. Does anyone have math relating to the value of stats like mastery vs parry or dodge?

The other quick question for those of you progressing into the later bosses how do you feel you stack up to the other tanks? So far through the few raids ive done it seems that we take a pretty decent chunk more damage but in turn have miles more in the way of cool downs and heals (like usual). Question being are the CDs and heals enough to maintain a competitive spot against the other tank classes.

#26 oneal13rru

oneal13rru

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:35 PM

Is there consensus yet on an ideal spec for situations with no predictable damage spike? Seems Lichborne requires enough frontloaded RP to make it useless in situations where the damage is either consistent or less predictable spikes.

Or, is it just recomended to bank ~60 RP at all times?

#27 Tyrielle

Tyrielle

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:25 PM

I am wondering if the DRW glyph should be reconsidered? I don't have a wealth of experience theory crafting, but in the dozens of heroics ran and the few hours I spent in a raid with a warrior and paladin tanks, I far outstripped their TPS, and that's without any misdirects, tricks or the DRW glyph. Once I place my first Runestrike on the boss, no DPS get close to pulling aggro, at worst I am 50% ahead of them. I suspect Runestrike is just overpowered at the moment as a result of Vengeance.

#28 nergal119

nergal119

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:35 PM

On the topic of > 7% deathstrikes and larger blood shields.

I am curious if there are currently any mods that will tally the damage taken (while purging all instances from >4-5 sec) and notify the user when a set percentage of total health is reached (say 35%), the threshold at which more powerful deathstrikes are available.

I ask this as I have not come across any and between negotiating fight mechanics and being healed it can be difficult on lower damage fights (not so much for large burst) to determine when you can get those larger shields (if even only slightly better).

Even if no such mod exists, thank you for your time.

#29 MADMark

MADMark

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 55 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:45 PM

Does anyone have math relating to the value of stats like mastery vs parry or dodge?


What exactly are you looking for comparing avoidance to self shielding? Yes, the DS shield serves a similar function to block, but it works differently, AFTER the hit occurs; it doesn't replace the hit with a block. Yes, you can come up with some arbitrary conversion value, but DK's don't shoot for unhittable like the other plates. It wouldn't be any more meaningful than the old standard throughput/mana debate healers often return to.

... it just begs to be repeatedly reported, over and over, as though reporting a post could somehow be analogous to stabbing someone in the face with a knife forged out of their own concentrated stupid.


#30 Roop

Roop

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:52 PM

A lovely mod named “blood shield tracker” on curse at the moment, been using it since its release and its extremely stable and accurate. (Sorry at work atm so can not access the site to link it directly, will do some when at home) I strongly recommend it if you want a mod that shows the relative heal of you Death Strike, as well as showing the shield it produces and also how long that shield is active. Doc (a member of the EJ forums, who's mod can been seen in the DPS threads as a rune monitoring mod) also has incorporated it into his rune watch mod, however its implementation is crude at the moment and he is refining it. (Maths wise its spot on, appearance wise it’s not as pretty as the 1st I mentioned is what I mean by the crude comment.)

#31 nergal119

nergal119

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:55 PM

Thank you Roop, I think I'll be giving that first mod a test run tonight when I get home.

I don't have a wealth of experience theory crafting, but in the dozens of heroics ran and the few hours I spent in a raid with a warrior and paladin tanks, I far outstripped their TPS, and that's without any misdirects, tricks or the DRW glyph


I have noticed this as well, seemingly as soon as I look at a target, I tend to stay at roughly 4-5x the threat level of the next highest DPSer. I've only done one raid though thus far (being the Tol Barad boss), but I did notice that I tended to pull out ahead of the paladin tank, and nearly wiped the raid when I decided it was a good idea to pop DRW on the pull (never doing that again, at least on the Brut-clone).

My one problem with replacing it though is that there is not a real wealth of decent major glyphs to choose from, that and our threat might start to become less effective relative to the dps as they start to gear up again.

#32 Asgorath

Asgorath

    Soda Popinski

  •  Patrons
  • 3,177 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:22 PM

Regarding threat, you have to keep in mind that we're still in the first week of the expansion, and at the very least many of your DPS folks will be undergeared. As we progress through the expansion, I would expect the DPS levels to increase at a rate much higher than ours or other tanking classes, which is of course what Vengeance is designed to help with over time. You might not need the DRW glyph right now, but I would expect it to be very useful in T12 and beyond (or even once your DPS folks start gearing up a bit more in T11).

#33 Insolence

Insolence

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:41 PM

If this is truly supposed to be a long term solution to Threat then what's wrong with just buffing up the Threat Modifier to say 500%? I watched Ensidia's Kill Videos for Halfus and Theralion/Valiona 25, their Tanks spent the majority of the time on Top 1-4th place on Recount, over 50% of the fight on Top 14.

Threat is even less of an issue than it was in WotLK. With Icy Slam it took some time to get a Threat lead this large. Now we just whack 2 Rune Strikes and we can sit there mashing DS/HS for Blood Shield and Blade Barrier until the opportune moment to use Rune Tap or if we need a Defensive Cooldown for whatever reason.

The current Vengeance needs a re-design so it won't work just for 1-2 Tiers, but for the whole Expansion. Until they figure that out, Threat Decay would be an excellent alternative....

#34 pyrous

pyrous

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:49 AM

Regarding the dimishing returns on Parry / Dodge....

If I understand it correctly, the theory is to make the values of each as close to each other as possible. Thus if Im sitting at 12% dodge, and 20% parry, I should reforge my parry values to dodge when possible. This would effectively increase my total avoidance? IE. I should attempt to reforge until I get to 16%/16%.

And then.... Where does mastery fit into all of this? If Im at 12% dodge/20% parry, if I was reduce my parry to 12% and use those values for mastery (which is currently 12.5%) would I gain more in absorbsion vs avoidance?

I thought the point of simplifying the stats for Cataclysm was to ummm... Simplify the game. Seems like theres far more fuzzy theorycrafting that needs to be done now... Or am I wrong?

#35 oneal13rru

oneal13rru

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:14 AM

Regarding the dimishing returns on Parry / Dodge....

If I understand it correctly, the theory is to make the values of each as close to each other as possible. Thus if Im sitting at 12% dodge, and 20% parry, I should reforge my parry values to dodge when possible. This would effectively increase my total avoidance? IE. I should attempt to reforge until I get to 16%/16%.

And then.... Where does mastery fit into all of this? If Im at 12% dodge/20% parry, if I was reduce my parry to 12% and use those values for mastery (which is currently 12.5%) would I gain more in absorbsion vs avoidance?

I thought the point of simplifying the stats for Cataclysm was to ummm... Simplify the game. Seems like theres far more fuzzy theorycrafting that needs to be done now... Or am I wrong?



If you want even fuzzier theorycrafting, try looking at haste as a survival stat for more DS/minute.

To answer your question, yes, DR is equal, so on avoidance, try to bring the ratings to equality. Not the actual percentage, but the rating value for each stat.

I did some napkin math trying to work out that exact haste question a while back, but right around the time I realized that the value of mastery differs based on the specific ratio of physical/magic damage on a per-encounter basis, I gave up.

Since you can't work out an actual EH value for mastery without going fight-by-fight for it, then trying to compare it to dodge/parry is essentially impossible unless you plan to reforge between fights.

If anyone wants to mess around with the stuff I have from those attempts, I have a spreadsheet and some formulas I can send you.

#36 Taizu

Taizu

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:29 AM

one, if you can send them over to me that'd be great.

I wonder how long blizz is planning to keep using this model for Blood shield that is on a sliding scale (i.e. mitigation is based on damage you take). Compare it to Blocking (30% reduction), and Savage Defense (-35% AP).

It'd be so much easier to model and predict.

#37 oneal13rru

oneal13rru

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:47 AM

one, if you can send them over to me that'd be great.

I wonder how long blizz is planning to keep using this model for Blood shield that is on a sliding scale (i.e. mitigation is based on damage you take). Compare it to Blocking (30% reduction), and Savage Defense (-35% AP).

It'd be so much easier to model and predict.


Heres a google docs link to the sheet, for now I have it set to not be modifiable online, but you should be able to save it locally and work on your own copy.

https://spreadsheets...uthkey=CIKiu_0H

The working formula I started with is h=[(.3625x)+z]/n.

h= EH gain for physical incoming damage
x=dmg/5s
n= % not mitigated.
z is your DS shield, which = .3625y

All values labeled "Don't Touch" are interval steps, the label was to remind me of that more than anything.

Sorry its so poorly documented, if something doesn't make much sense, feel free to pm asking for help with it.

Some of the values may not be updated to the most recent patch, I haven't messed with this much in a month or so.

Obviously, the whole thing assumes a greater than minimum heal. Values for avoidance, mitigation, and haste are all variable, as are the raw damage in and % damage physical values.

#38 Lichloathe

Lichloathe

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 74 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:55 AM

If you're looking to find out differences between avoidance and Mastery, BloodSim is an excellent tool for that. Just figure out what your avoidance and Mastery would be if you fiddled them around and run different iterations to get results for comparison.

What I'd like to do to make this easier is throw some ratings conversions with DR in so that you don't have to do a lot of math before you're able to even run the sim. This is on my to-do list, but at the moment I don't have a whole lot of bandwidth to make it happen.

Edit:
Also, can I get independant confirmation that:
Base Dodge = 3.94%
Base Parry = 5.00%
I went in-game and unequipped all gear, but I haven't been able to find this listed anywhere else and I want to be certain before I build it into BloodSim.

#39 oneal13rru

oneal13rru

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:22 PM

Edit:
Also, can I get independant confirmation that:
Base Dodge = 3.94%
Base Parry = 5.00%
I went in-game and unequipped all gear, but I haven't been able to find this listed anywhere else and I want to be certain before I build it into BloodSim.


On my to-do list as soon as my servers online.

Also: any chance you could put something rough together to model the value of Haste as a survival stat? I'd be more than happy to actually run it myself if your cycles are claimed, I have a decently high-end gaming PC.

Or, barring this, is there a thread somewhere with the magic/physical ratios and raw damage throughput from the various bosses? That info would make it possible to get rough averages out of my spreadsheet.

Edit for: Those values hold true for myself as well for dodge/parry base at 85.

#40 Roop

Roop

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:17 PM

Or, barring this, is there a thread somewhere with the magic/physical ratios and raw damage throughput from the various bosses? That info would make it possible to get rough averages out of my spreadsheet.


There is no thread for this at the moment, but looking on the likes of the various websites that list dps etc, would this give the same information and build it up from there?

If so then its just a case of collating the information per website per boss to build up a better % split of damage between magic and physical. Something that would take time but that would be worth it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users