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#41 oneal13rru

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:31 PM

There is no thread for this at the moment, but looking on the likes of the various websites that list dps etc, would this give the same information and build it up from there?

If so then its just a case of collating the information per website per boss to build up a better % split of damage between magic and physical. Something that would take time but that would be worth it.



Well, at World of Logs, I couldn't find anything related to boss damage throughput, seems like most people consider it a lower priority compared to raid numbers, and since raid numbers/execution turn into a pass/fail scenario, specific boss throughput just gets pushed to the wayside.

Seems it would require a specialized addon to actually track the data, or a specialized log parser. Otherwise, you would have to sit down with a calculator and mess around with the percentages and procs to determine raw damage for almost every ability used.

That was why I was hoping there was already a project under way for this. I don't have the coding knowledge to put something like this together, but would happily donate cycles to testing if it was made.

Edit: the data IS available, I just failed. Going to work on this some when I have the time.

#42 Roop

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:00 PM

It takes some delving, but the information is there on worldoflogs.com

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

For example, is a report of the damage taken by paragon on the 01-12-2010 and heroic LK.

You need a log per run, then you can split it down into per boss from there, its all in the website already. Just takes looking for... (And I certainly dont have the time to do such a task unfortunatly, but thought I would point out that the information is there, just slowly being captured at the moment)

Edit..

For shits and giggles, I am going to e-mail the authors of worldoflogs.com and ask them if they could introduce a section for each boss to show physical/magic % damage taken, so the split is plainly obvious and can be made up VERY accurately with more and more logs being added. Need to have a more in depths explanation/request that "cud you plz do itz" from what I have at the moment, but the information is THERE it’s just a case of amending how its shown will show the % without hassle.

#43 oneal13rru

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:57 PM

It takes some delving, but the information is there on worldoflogs.com

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

For example, is a report of the damage taken by paragon on the 01-12-2010 and heroic LK.

You need a log per run, then you can split it down into per boss from there, its all in the website already. Just takes looking for... (And I certainly dont have the time to do such a task unfortunatly, but thought I would point out that the information is there, just slowly being captured at the moment)

Edit..

For shits and giggles, I am going to e-mail the authors of worldoflogs.com and ask them if they could introduce a section for each boss to show physical/magic % damage taken, so the split is plainly obvious and can be made up VERY accurately with more and more logs being added. Need to have a more in depths explanation/request that "cud you plz do itz" from what I have at the moment, but the information is THERE it’s just a case of amending how its shown will show the % without hassle.


To clarify the value: It allows for a per-boss analysis of average values of mastery and avoidance, and in our case, haste. Once values are determined for certain ratios, we will be able to extrapolate those values with a reasonable certainty for new content based on 1-2 logs analyzed, and finding the most similar ratio from cleared content.

Is that the sort of specific reasoning you needed?

Edit: To clarify, I'm sure you saw the reasoning, rather, the question should be is that a good wording for it?

#44 Roop

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:16 PM

Trying to post between work calls at the moment (not wise) so will try and come back to this later this evening before I pester them with e-mails. But I have a general idea of how I want to approach them to include "extra bits" on there website that shows nothing more than the % of damage taken by the "person that took the most damage" which would generally be the tank, as % of magic and % of physical damage taken overall. This could be used for all manors’ of things in regards to calculating stat's weightings for stamina VS avoidance Vs mastery overall and even per boss. (not only for ourselves, but also for every tanking class in the game at the moment.)

Throwing haste into the mix would be confusing, as the actual % of haste for the tank would be required, and also number of death strikes. End of the day it would be down to "how many death strikes they did" and a log would just not really show the value of haste as a survival stat imo. There are just to many variables that the logg would not show. Damage taken however, and from what; whole other ball game.

I am just concerned as to why it has not been brought up or asked for before as might be limitations as to what they can show. Otherwise, why the hell is it not on there in the 1st place?

#45 Elmwood

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:29 PM

A little off topic: we did our first testing of Conclave of Wind. You can find my spec in the link to my armory. The spec used was 33/8/0 taking Lichbourne and Glyph of Death's Embrace. Considering there is nothing to interrupt, I will respect the two points from Endless Winter to something more useful (see the end of this post). Threat is a non issue, as there are multiple target switches between bosses, giving you 20-30 seconds alone on the boss (using our strategy).

Just to clarify, we did not kill the three bosses of the encounter. This was strictly for testing and learning purposes. A paladin healer and I were placed on Nazir's (frost boss) platform. After Sleet Storm, you can AMS the following Wind Chill to drops your stacks (which have 30 second duration). We also had our paladin bubble off his stacks when he felt overwhelmed. We found the self heal from Lichbourne to be beneficial for mana conservation and an "oh shit" button (yes, I saved enough RP to heal myself to full while using VB or IF to mitigate incoming Permafrost – I also was not glyphed for Dark Death because I’m an idiot).

If I remember correctly from the previous end game tanking thread, Blood Worms were considered a smart heal but not exactly reliable as a consistent source of healing. For those who've seen the encounter: do I stand correct in my thinking that Blood Worms would be the best potential replacement for Endless Winter (all things considered, of course). I will also replace Glyph of Rune Strike to Dark Death for the increased self healing. What should be done with Glyph of Pestilence? Considering there are no adds to manage on Nazir’s platform and we are not tank swapping, would Glyph of Rune Tap be the viable choice for increased healing during Sleet Storm?

Edit: This spec would be specifically for Conclave of Wind.

#46 Draginclaw

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:49 PM

I actually dropped blood worms from my spec because of the shields on Omnitron seemed to be triggered with them last week.

#47 Lichloathe

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:20 AM

Also: any chance you could put something rough together to model the value of Haste as a survival stat?

Tweaking the amount of Haste is an option that's already in BloodSim. The only thing that I would say could stand to be changed is to have the input be Rating instead of Percentage, for easier comparison to other stats on a 1->1 rating basis. I'll save you the time, though: Haste as a survival stat is terrible and grossly inferior to Mastery.

Or, barring this, is there a thread somewhere with the magic/physical ratios and raw damage throughput from the various bosses? That info would make it possible to get rough averages out of my spreadsheet.

What I'd really, really love to do if I can find the bandwidth is model all (or as many as reasonable) of the current bosses and have this be an option when running a simulation. Unfortunately because of my schedule I have literally zero time to Raid so I have only a rudimentary (at best) understanding of their mechanics. Is there somewhere that has extreme detail on each boss's abilities that I can use for this? I've checked TankSpot and I've A) Only found guides for Magmaw, Halfus, ODS and Argaloth and B) The only one of those that has the detail I need is the ODS guide, but even that doesn't have melee swing information. Wowhead appears to have all the abilities and damage values, but not cooldowns or usage intervals. :(

Edit for: Those values hold true for myself as well for dodge/parry base at 85.

Excellent.

#48 path411

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 04:11 PM

Diseaseless also means that you should not spec into epidemic, blood caked blade or crimson scourge.


I find crimson scourge still valuable for the 40% damage on bloodboil. Although with threat how it is, I might be able to do without.

Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.

#49 Roop

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 04:31 PM

I find crimson scourge still valuable for the 40% damage on bloodboil. Although with threat how it is, I might be able to do without.

Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.


I understand your view about pulling with something that you don’t normally use other than once a minute, and especially at "range". However, I like the fact of pulling with outbreak as it instantly applies the attack speed de-buff before another can apply it. Those 1st few seconds before the de-buff's on the boss, buffs on you or healers start to land heals depending on the encounter can be at times troublesome. Especialy if there is some sort of "start of encounter lag" which some claim can occur. So lowering the incoming damage by slowing the swing speed before them even land a hit is in my eyes beneficial. I also, depending on the encounter like to use Death grip, the vast majority of encounters now a days use boss's that are not taunt immune, (or let me say not encountered one that is yet) so having those seconds fixate to know you can position at your pleasure without the worry of trigger happy DPS can be useful. Let’s face it, if the DPS are going to take the boss from you, it’s going to be within the 1st 10 seconds of a fight with our current threat levels, after which time you will have a solid lead misdirects or tricks aside. So having the ability to cut that "chance" down to a very small window of 2-3 GCD's without the requirement to chastise your DPS is quite priceless.

#50 oneal13rru

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:27 PM

Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.


My personal preference is Outbreak, Taunt. Gives me attack speed before reaching the target, and guaranteed time to establish aggro. Mind you, my guild hasn't got enough 85 healers yet, so thats all based on 5mans, and may not continue to be true into raids.

#51 Mindaika

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:53 PM

My personal preference is Outbreak, Taunt. Gives me attack speed before reaching the target, and guaranteed time to establish aggro. Mind you, my guild hasn't got enough 85 healers yet, so thats all based on 5mans, and may not continue to be true into raids.


I'm not really clear on why you would taunt on pull. Taunt has no effect if there's no one higher on threat than you.

Best pull would probably be Outbreak and BB to apply the haste debuff and the damage debuff.
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#52 Insolence

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:15 AM

Best pull would probably be Outbreak and BB to apply the haste debuff and the damage debuff.

This.

Opening with Icy Touch and Death and Decay is a loss of a Death Strike.

My personal preference is Outbreak - Blood Boil - Death Strike - Heart Strike - Rune Strike. The initial Death Strike is horribly weak, but its something. First Blood Boil regardless of whether or not someone else can provide the Debuff just to get it on the Target faster. Heart Strike to get Blade Barrier rolling and then Rune Strike really starts pulling in the big TPS numbers.

On Crimson Scourge: Even the 40% added damage to Blood Boil doesn't make it worth it. Just drop a DnD at the start of a pull and you've got all the mobs tied to you like a Perma-Taunt.

#53 Coord

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:00 AM

One thing I didn't see mentioned here was runeforging, and at first I thought it would be obvious, but I took a closer look.

Stoneskin Gargoyle gives me ~2k hp and 1k armor (my tank set is pretty crappy atm), but Swordshattering is 4% parry. 4% extra avoidance seems to be much, much better than a reletively crappy amount of stam, tho 1k armor still seems heavy -- I'm just not sure how heavy.

Just something I noticed recently. Any thoughts?

#54 Lichloathe

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:35 AM

Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.

Pull with Outbreak. It's not like any of the ranged attacks you have will do any significant amount of threat anyway (read: Icy Touch). Blowing IT will make you lose a Death Strike. You taking reduced damage is generally more important than DPS being able to light the boss up immediately on the pull.

#55 GravityDK

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:13 AM

Stoneskin Gargoyle gives me ~2k hp and 1k armor (my tank set is pretty crappy atm), but Swordshattering is 4% parry. 4% extra avoidance seems to be much, much better than a reletively crappy amount of stam


Over the last few days I've been discussing this and there is some strong rationale to support swordshattering once you have 'enough' stamina. "Enough" is likely to be when you're in all epics or pre-raid blues. Reasoning is as you suggested: the additional HP is no longer as important as it was in Cataclysm, since we have so much longer to survive than the prior two-shot death bosses; helping your healer with mana is through avoidance not stamina; the additional parry helps more with mana conservation than the extra armour.

#56 Skulmaster

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:20 AM

About Stoneskin Gargoyle vs Swordshattering.
This will depend a lot on your other stats too, like current amount of armor, avoidance and stamina. Remember that DS will always minimum heal for 7% of your hp's, even if you did not take any damage in the preceding 5 secs. Armor will mitigate a lot of damage over time too. It depends on fight mechanics too, adds and magical damage.
But as GravityDK pointed out, I think it's safe to assume that at higher gear levels with a decent amount of stamina and armor, Sworshattering will conserve more mana. Since armor value diminishes a bit nearing the armorcap, and 4% undiminished Parry is quite a lot.

#57 zagor

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:19 AM

Since armor value diminishes a bit nearing the armorcap, and 4% undiminished Parry is quite a lot.

This is coming back to vanilla armor vs. stam debate.
Armor value never diminishes. Same amount of added armor will reduce the damage taken by the same amount no matter if one is at 50% reduction or 70%.

#58 Skulmaster

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:43 AM

This is coming back to vanilla armor vs. stam debate.
Armor value never diminishes. Same amount of added armor will reduce the damage taken by the same amount no matter if one is at 50% reduction or 70%.


Armor damage reduction diminishes, going from 50 to 55% DR requires less armor then going from 70 to 75%. So Mitigation diminishes too. Your time to live doesn't though. You can find an excellent explanation here Diminishing-Returns-Armour

#59 zagor

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:49 AM

Yes I know that article. I'll just quote this line from that article:
Mitigation is subject to diminishing returns, but survivability is not

Like I said, armor doesn't have diminishing returns. Adding more armor will never suffer from diminishing returns, you always get full bang for your bucks.

#60 khel

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:17 AM

I'm not really clear on why you would taunt on pull. Taunt has no effect if there's no one higher on threat than you.

Best pull would probably be Outbreak and BB to apply the haste debuff and the damage debuff.


Taunt has the effect of locking the target onto you for a fixed duration, even if someone would otherwise pull aggro. For initial threat and survivability, Outbreak, Taunt while running in, BB once the boss is in range, then DS, RS, HS.




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