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Assassination Guide for Cata [12/01/2011]


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#21 BlueBells

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:42 AM

While it is evident that, in terms of weapon enchants, Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide is the clear front-runner, the fact remains that it is going to be very expensive for the first burst of raiding in Cataclysm..just like zerking was in WotLK.

Is it reasonable to assume that, for those who do not have access to a couple thousand gold for weapon enchants, Enchant Weapon - Hurricane would be the next best option?

#22 Luckyspoon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:33 AM

While it is evident that, in terms of weapon enchants, Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide is the clear front-runner, the fact remains that it is going to be very expensive for the first burst of raiding in Cataclysm..just like zerking was in WotLK.

Is it reasonable to assume that, for those who do not have access to a couple thousand gold for weapon enchants, Enchant Weapon - Hurricane would be the next best option?


I believe that this thread is being written towards BIS gear and enchants. If I did my math correctly, that would mean that Enchant Weapon - Hurricane 's EP is about 540... while Enchant Weapon - Landslide is like... 1000... which is a BIG difference. if it was 800+ it would be worthwhile to put on the list.

As for the question of if this would be second best, You are Probably correct, it is the next highest in EP value for the newest weapon enchants.

#23 Aldriana

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:38 AM

While it is evident that, in terms of weapon enchants, Formula: Enchant Weapon - Landslide is the clear front-runner, the fact remains that it is going to be very expensive for the first burst of raiding in Cataclysm..just like zerking was in WotLK.

Is it reasonable to assume that, for those who do not have access to a couple thousand gold for weapon enchants, Enchant Weapon - Hurricane would be the next best option?


Avalanche, actually. Its not even that far behind, particularly on the OH. Still behind, so if you can afford Landslide you should definitely still use it, but if you can't...

Edit: I should clarify that this makes certain assumptions about how Avalanche works that aren't entirely verified by current testing. But I think said assumptions are reasonably well founded. When and if you have a weapon with Avalanche on it and an inclination to test it, shoot me a PM and I'll explain the test that needs to happen.

#24 nextormento

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:50 AM

Edit: Aldriana posted before me, but here goes this anyway since I think it can put things in perspective.

ShadowCraft is being built to adress those questions but for this particular case the question, I think, is not Hurricane vs Landslide but rather Landslide vs Berseking/Mongoose: There's only three new enchants available to rogues so if you do want to sport a shiny new one it's almost obvious that the second best is Hurricane (Avalanche being third I supose).

Current estimates place Landslide at 371-284 EP (values are given for 'main hand' - 'off hand') and Hurricane at 197-151; Berseking can be easily computed in the current incarnation of ShadowCraft and turns out to be around 175-136.

All in all Hurricane is better (plus, as far as I remember, Hurricane is not completely supported given it's current weird proc behaviour); and that's probably the reason Berseking/Mongoose are not supported. Enchanting mats are cheaper now than they were at WotLK launch but if you are that worried about gold, maybe the old, cheap zerker is your way to go.

#25 Greymist1

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:23 PM

Wouldn't the following macro accomplish both?

#showtooltip Garrote
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Garrote

Unless I missed that they put pots on the gcd.


Pots aren't on the GCD, but this macro won't work for an unrelated reason. Using a pot breaks stealth, which will make the attempt to cast Garotte fail.

I used the haste pot equivalent to the macro Grimwolf posted for months in ICC. It works well, but you need to be sure to use the macro before the raid is put in combat. Use it slightly too late, and you'll lose your opener, Overkill, and a chance to use a second potion later in the fight (the main reason to pre-pot in the first place).
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#26 Sakuru

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:55 AM

#showtooltip Potion of the Tol'vir
/use Potion of the Tol'vir
/cast Stealth


I have been using an equal macro to this on live for a while, swaping Potion of the Tol'vir with Potion of Speed of course.
Using this macro on a fight where there is an event before entering combat, such as LK or Saurfang works very well, you will only lose about 1 or 2 seconds (timing it right with the initiation of the combat) of potion time before you do your first attack, thus utilising the most of your overkill and pot up time.

On the other hand, this will waste abit more pot time, using this macro, in fights where you will have to move into position after pulling, Festergut / Rotface type fights comes to mind. A possible solution to this is to add in '/cast sprint' into the macro for those fights, enabeling you to get into position faster.

#27 fourdots

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:40 PM

"Blue Sockets
Name Stats EP
[Glinting Demonseye] 20 Agility/20 Hit Rating 80*
[Glinting Demonseye] 20 Agility/20 Hit Rating 67**
*below spell hit cap
**above spell hit cap"


Is this a typo, or are you simply saying that Glinting Demoneye is the way to go irrespective of whether or not you're above the spell hit cap?

Haven't seen this addressed anywhere, so my apologies if it has. Thanks in advance for your help.

#28 Dyslexicmonkey

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

It depends. If you use the example given in the first post, you'll see why.

You generally will want to match all of your Agility bonuses ( in yellow sockets and in blue sockets) and put all into sockets for non-Agility bonuses. To be sure, you may want to calculate the EP value yourself. Using as an example, there is a yellow and blue socket for a 20 Agility bonus. Putting a and in gives a total of 20+20+20=60 Agility, 20 Mastery Rating, and 20 Hit Rating. Below the spell hit cap, the total EP value is calculated as follows.

[TABLE]Matching Sockets
60(2.6) + 20(1.3) + 20(1.4) = 210 EP[/TABLE]

What if we decided to put in two instead? This gives a total of 40+40=80 Agility (no socket bonus).

[TABLE]Straight Agility
80(2.61) = 208 EP[/TABLE]

So in this case below spell hit cap, it is better to match the sockets. If we recalculate for a situation where you are above the spell hit cap, matching the socket bonuses would only give 197 EP, less then just putting all in. Again, you may want to just check to be sure.


The short answer is that you'll need to calculate the EP differences yourself and make an informed decision.

#29 Cheedai

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:34 PM

This post might be based on a misunderstanding of the numbers (Lord knows that's not my strong suit), but I think there might be an error with your hit rating and percentages values.

I play BE Assassination Rogue, I'm level 85 and I've specced 2/3 precision. From my character screen, this is the values I have for hit:
- Hit Chance: +13.99%
- Hit rating 1200 (+9.99% hit chance)

From your original post, it lists the spell hit cap for poisons as 13% / 1332 hit rating when specced 2/3 Precision. However, I've only - as far as I can understand - got 1200 hit rating and am at 13.99%. So yeah, I just figured I'd give you a headsup from live 85 (as I understand some of this is written during beta?) in case some of the numbers are incorrect.

Good work on the guide! :)

#30 Aldriana

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 11:03 PM

Those look like melee hit numbers. The spell hit cap is spell hit, and as near as I can tell the numbers in the first post are correct for reaching 13% spell hit with 2/3 opportunity.

#31 Bowien

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 07:08 AM

This post might be based on a misunderstanding of the numbers (Lord knows that's not my strong suit), but I think there might be an error with your hit rating and percentages values.

I play BE Assassination Rogue, I'm level 85 and I've specced 2/3 precision. From my character screen, this is the values I have for hit:
- Hit Chance: +13.99%
- Hit rating 1200 (+9.99% hit chance)

From your original post, it lists the spell hit cap for poisons as 13% / 1332 hit rating when specced 2/3 Precision. However, I've only - as far as I can understand - got 1200 hit rating and am at 13.99%. So yeah, I just figured I'd give you a headsup from live 85 (as I understand some of this is written during beta?) in case some of the numbers are incorrect.

Good work on the guide! :)


To clarify on what Aldriana said, since I've been finding recently that a lot of people don't realize this, you actually get different amounts of melee hit % and spell hit % from a point in hit rating.

At 85:
1% melee hit = 120.109 hit rating.
1% spell hit = 102.446 hit rating.

So while your 1200 gives you 9.99% melee hit, it also gives you...
1200 / 102.446 = 11.71% spell hit (15.71% with 2/3 precision). You should be able to see this by hovering over the melee/spell hit% in your character sheet in game.

However, the big reason your numbers are drastically off is because you're counting precision twice.
17% is the spell hit cap. The 13% from the main page is because they're factoring in the 4% from precision already.

#32 Aldriana

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 05:55 PM

Avalanche, actually. Its not even that far behind, particularly on the OH. Still behind, so if you can afford Landslide you should definitely still use it, but if you can't...

Edit: I should clarify that this makes certain assumptions about how Avalanche works that aren't entirely verified by current testing. But I think said assumptions are reasonably well founded. When and if you have a weapon with Avalanche on it and an inclination to test it, shoot me a PM and I'll explain the test that needs to happen.


I did some brief testing this morning, and it appears that some of those assumptions were flawed. More testing is needed to determine exactly how it *does* work, but it appears that Avalanche probably isn't as good as initially estimated. Whether its still worth using is hard to say. My guess is that it will probably wind up still better than Hurricane on at least one hand... but until further testing is done, there's just no way to be sure.

#33 Grunge

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:35 PM

I did some brief testing this morning, and it appears that some of those assumptions were flawed. More testing is needed to determine exactly how it *does* work, but it appears that Avalanche probably isn't as good as initially estimated. Whether its still worth using is hard to say. My guess is that it will probably wind up still better than Hurricane on at least one hand... but until further testing is done, there's just no way to be sure.


At first glance it's looking pretty terrible, 0.7% (58k) damage out of ~9million damage on Magmaw (over several tries).

Edit: Enchanted on 1.4 OH only!
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#34 Aldriana

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:40 PM

Well, what are you expecting? its not like weapon enchants are half your damage or anything. Double Hurricane in full BIS T11 is something like 1.7% of your damage, so its entirely possible for double Avalanche to be entirely worth using and still under 2% of your total damage.

#35 rayryoma

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 03:58 AM

Hi there, got a little question myself about expertise

I'm an assassination rogue 85 now and I dont really know what to do, go for the exp cap or reforge my little bit of expertise to hit / mastery or let the expertise be around 338 (11) as it is now.

As far as I can see, most rogues go for 1 expertise and reforge the rest to hit / mastery, but personally I'm not a fan of dodging abilities, I just can't find myself to like it I guess :P

So here I was wondering how much of a dps loss it would be if I'd cap expertise, I saw a discussion in another thread here ( the rogue changes in cata it was if I remember right ) about why expertise has such a low EP value and stuff.

So yeah, it might be basic for some but I really dont know what I should do about this expertise thing, is the dps loss maybe so marginal that it's not that important to either cap it or not, maybe just personal preferences or is it huge enough so I really shouldnt cap expertise and instead reforge it to hit / mastery.

I'd do reforge exp to hit if it's better, I don't want to say alot better, cause I know that its not THAT much of a
difference, but I hope you know what I mean :P

and sry if this was alredy answered, I couldnt find an answer to my question

#36 Krushinator

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 07:24 AM

Last Revised: 12/01/2010
The table above gives the amount of expertise rating required to reach the expertise cap for dodges. When a combo point generating ability (Mutilate, Backstab, etc.) is dodged you are refunded 80% of the cost. When Envenom is dodged, you still get the Envenom buff but depending on how much time you have left on your SnD, your SnD may fall off and have to directly refresh your SnD. These mechanics play a part in expertise's relative poor value and it is likely most rogues will not gear for expertise cap unless they have cycle stability issues.


This seems to indicate that the only setback to being under expertise cap is possibly having to refresh SnD manually. Even with the energy loss from dodged attacks, does expertise rating really have just a 1.1 EP value before the cap? What changed from 3.3 to now that made expertise so insignificant?

#37 Aldriana

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 08:51 AM

So, there's a couple of different answers to that question.

The first answer is that *all* rating stats suck (relatively speaking) now. You'll note that even "good" rating stats like spell hit are still only around 1.4 EP; the fact of the matter is that the rating scaling from 80 to 85 torpedoed all rating stats as compared to AP or Agility. We're used to having rating stats with EPs around 2 and 2.5 or even 3 for good stats - that's simply no longer the case. Good stats have an EP value a little over 1, and bad stats a little under 1, and that's all there is to it. So whereas in Wrath it was worth gemming Expertise instead of Agi to cap it... it no longer is. Agi is just better. The end.

The question, then, is why Expertise dropped behind enough other stats that it's not even worth reforging for. Well, it was always behind spell hit for Mutilate, and Mastery is a new stat so it's not like the relative value of it has changes - its just a new stat that's bettter. And having a hard to make spell hit cap and mastery both ahead of expertise is already sufficient for us to (almost) never reforge to expertise. So we can't gem for it, and its suboptimal to reforge to it - that means we're not often going to cap it. Not a lot of mystery here.

That said, expertise did also drop in relative value a bit - from ahead of Haste to behind it. Not that it really matters - as noted, we wouldn't cap it either way - but its still a legitimate question why that's changed. And the foremost reason is that dodged finishers no longer cost the full energy cost of the move. In Wrath a dodged Envenom cost you 35 energy. Now it costs you 7. Hence, we lose a lot less energy to dodged finishers than we did before, and its also a lot less likely to break our cycle as you're only delayed by a GCD instead of 3+ seconds to regen the energy for another try. As it turns out, this take a significant enough chunk out of the value of expertise to drop it from rivaling spell hit to behind haste.

So: it's not as good as it used to be, and the reworked stat system plus addition of mastery means we can't afford to gem for it and reforging for it is suboptimal. Hence it doesn't get capped.

In terms of how big a DPS loss it is to cap it: it depends on your gear, but typically a couple hundred DPS. Perhaps 1%, maybe a bit less. How big a deal that is to you you'll have to decide for yourself - but it *is* clearly suboptimal.

#38 SirThrawn

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 09:14 AM

So it is clear now where to categorize expertise. But I am wondering, the guide says that we reforge crit to whatever stat is better for us according to the prio list (talking about assassination). But do we reforge other stats too? Would I reforge Expertise into mastery? or haste into mastery? Do I always reforge a stat that is lower on the list into one that is higher (if available)?

#39 rayryoma

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 09:40 AM

So it is clear now where to categorize expertise. But I am wondering, the guide says that we reforge crit to whatever stat is better for us according to the prio list (talking about assassination). But do we reforge other stats too? Would I reforge Expertise into mastery? or haste into mastery? Do I always reforge a stat that is lower on the list into one that is higher (if available)?


I don't know if always, but I'd say yes. As I stated above, most rogues I saw are reforging not only crit -> X (hit/mastery mostly, nothing else atm) but also expertise and haste - > mastery

I also got that expertise thing now, the thing that bothers me is that 2 of 3 paragon rogues reforge to expertise..

thats what I mean, there seem to be 3 types of rogues. those who reforge to expertise, the ones who reforge expertise to something else and some who wont touch expertise and let it be as it is.

and if it really is that suboptimal, I wonder why they'd reforge into expertise (speaking of the paragon rogues )

also I know it's not that great to go look around for some armory links and say "but they'll do it that way, why would I do otherwise", especially as armory is really buggy sometimes. but thats why I'm here asking, heh :P

#40 Syncness

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:40 AM

This seems to indicate that the only setback to being under expertise cap is possibly having to refresh SnD manually. Even with the energy loss from dodged attacks, does expertise rating really have just a 1.1 EP value before the cap? What changed from 3.3 to now that made expertise so insignificant?


Regardless, you will never be gemming for expertise or reforging into it, perhaps only calculating EP values from gem bonuses (which is rare, as expertise is rarely on agility gear).




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