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Cataclysm Discipline Priest Compendium


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#21 Viper45

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:46 PM

Vuhdo comes with an very usable default setup right out of the box. The configuration
interface is completely redesigned and the appearance of the raid frames can be customized if desired.
VuhDo : Raid Mods : WoWInterface Downloads

Might be useful to note that the author of this mod answers questions and replies to bug posts at PlusHeal.com • View forum - Vuhdo Support.


By the way, the suggested A/A spec recommends taking Strenght of Soul, but Heal is not going to be frequently used with this spec. I would put those two points in Inpiration. 10% damage reduction is quite significant.

I agree, gaining inspiration in lieu of SoS is a huge benefit for an AA disc priest.

#22 Elimbras

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:38 PM

Regarding haste and sustained throughput, I don't know how you computed it. But imho, the "best" way to do it is not to compute how much healing one can do until you get oom (with heal, that would be nearly infinite in fact), but how much healing one can do in a given time frame (let's say 6 minutes, for example).

If one uses this metric, and given the fact that we can (or at least should) be able to sustain Heal nearly infinitely, then haste shall have a strictly positive (albeit small) value for sustained throughput. This is because although mana is still the main constraint for this metric, time is also a constraint we can't neglect (by contradiction, if time is no constraint, then the best sequence is the spam of the most efficient heal, ie. Heal. As we can sustain it, then mana is no longer a constraint either...). In practice, the best sequence is (at least for a quick intuition) a mixture of Heal and Greater Heal and Renew.

The number of Renew is fixed, such as to keep it on target all time (well, in fact, it might change a little due to haste effect, but that won't change a lot). Then, we can determine the proportion of Heal and Greater heal such as :
1/ To drain the remaining mana in that time frame (ie. increase the number of GH as much as possible)
2/ To keep every GCD occupied (but it is better to spam Heal than being oom after too much spam of GH).

The correct way to see it is :
1/ The mana constraint forces us to use efficient spell;
2/ The GCD / time constraint prevents us from spamming only the most efficient spell.

Now, having more haste means that you have more free GCD, and hence, you can spend the same amount of mana with more spells, using more Heal and less Greater Heal. This new mixture is globally more efficient, and as the amount of available mana is kept identical, haste increases the sustained healing a little bit.

#23 Carnathagia

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:09 PM

There seems to be major discrepancies between the coefficients table and the actual healing values. For a disc profile, Heal should be (3390 + 0.3624 * 6760) * 1.15 * 1.06 = 7118, while it's listed as 12360. While this calculation doesn't include crit, it clearly won't make up for that difference. The healing table also dismisses Renew-5 while having a value for Renew-4, should be the opposite?
Regarding renew, it should tick for 2683 with IT and GoR. With 5 ticks it has 90% of Heal's HPM and the benefit of not moving Grace around. Once enough haste is available to gain 6 ticks with BT, which may be attainable in haste-oriented 372s, it will be extremely efficient.


Grace is an additional 24% bonus, while the effect of Critical, with RH and DA is another 26%. However, the Spellpower in that example should be 7482 (8535 raid buffed) from the same gear set with Discipline's 15% increase to Intellect. That gives you the 12360 figure.

The spreadsheet shows glyphed and talented, Renew5 at 5.38 HPM, which is still worse than Heal, Greater Heal, and Binding Heal for single target, but slightly better than Shield. Assuming that an encounter will never require more HPS than Greater Heal spam, it wouldn't make sense to use any of your casting time for a less efficient, lower HPCT spell like Renew as Disc unless you had to move and could spare the mana. And although that will likely happen, it doesn't seem to me to justify the last 2 points in our Disc spec over some of the other attractive options, or for a glyph slot over Barrier or Prayer of Healing. Perhaps after more experience with the raid encounters, that can be determined empirically.

It doesn't seem worth using even for raid healing, since even Holy Nova5 is slightly better, and Prayer of Healing is much better.
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Jovavich - Arcane/Fire Mage

#24 Viper45

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:11 PM

Permalink from "Surviving Until Dec. 7th" thread.

Hmm I did not realise inner focus is now a 45 second CD. With ~2 sec cast time that means if you use IF and then cast 6 gheals IF there will be 3 seconds left on IF. That is 1 free gheal every 8. With 2.5 sec cast time its 1 free gheal every 7. 12-14% reduction in gheal mana cost.

I'm skeptical that Cataclysm encounters would encourage such heavy use of GH, but I figured I'd reference it in hopes it would get added to the regen section. It is effectively free mana, and I feel the value of the combat regen should be noted. Which I'd post, but I'm not exactly sure how to calculate it.

#25 Ellyh

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:38 PM

The spreadsheet shows glyphed and talented, Renew5 at 5.38 HPM, which is still worse than Heal, Greater Heal, and Binding Heal for single target, but slightly better than Shield. Assuming that an encounter will never require more HPS than Greater Heal spam, it wouldn't make sense to use any of your casting time for a less efficient, lower HPCT spell like Renew as Disc unless you had to move and could spare the mana. And although that will likely happen, it doesn't seem to me to justify the last 2 points in our Disc spec over some of the other attractive options, or for a glyph slot over Barrier or Prayer of Healing. Perhaps after more experience with the raid encounters, that can be determined empirically.


That may be true for single target situations but for 5 man and 10 man there is a lot of advantages to casting an instant single GCD spell on someone needing non urgent topping off so you can remain focused on your main target (the tank). This preserves both your grace stack and allows you to be addressing multiple targets in an efficient manner. Even for single target situations not everything is patchwerk but there are often short duration bursts of healing needed (5-6 seconds) and using downtime earlier to get renew up can be of significant value to assist you through that burst.

It is dangerous to compare a hot like renew to a direct heal because of these difference in application and the fact that they can combine synergistically. However as mentioned without first hand experiance of the encounters the value of the renew glyph is hard to judge but I can see situations where it will be of value. The good news is that we can now easily change glyphs between fights for negligible cost so we can tailor to the specifics of the situation.

#26 angayelle

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:49 PM

Hello priest friends, a guildmate asked me to create an addon to deal with Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis. I thought it might be a good idea for you to have a look at it in case you find it useful:

Link on WoWinterface
Link on Curse

Posted Image Posted Image

It show you the realtime value of both shields for your target and for mousehovered friendly player units. You can choose to enable or disable any of theses two.
Leave me any comments on either pages and i'll add features if requested.

#27 EvenMoarBubbles

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:02 AM

Are the points in Mental Agility really worth it?

We could happily be specced into SoS, Inspiration and Archangel/Atonement without them and there's even a spare point for a 4% decrease if you really want it.

Those points just seem like the easiest to move and seem a lot better than not taking Inspiration if we still want to spec into AAA.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's the most logical shift for the build to me.

#28 Genzen

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:31 PM

Do we have any more information on which secondary stats are 'the best', or is it still a case of keeping everything pretty much even?

I'm mainly asking from a tank-healing perspective, since I'm the main tank-healer for our guild. At the moment, I'm actually finding Crit to be the most valuable, since it procs DA and gives a chunk of 'free' healing. Mastery's decent, but, aside from PW:S, it's largely effected by crit, since the only other thing it boosts is DA. I'm not valuing Haste at the moment - I don't find myself needing to cast quickly, and it seems like more Haste just means OoM comes quicker.

#29 MADMark

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

Healing is of course a gray area with more "feel" to it than the other roles, but as has been mentioned by others, Haste does have an indirect benefit, it allows you cast more Heal, rather GH. There should be a way to calculate the throughput/mana of a higher ratio of H to GH versus "free" crit throughput (don't forget that the crit to DA conversion is not great), but the I'll leave the math to others.

... it just begs to be repeatedly reported, over and over, as though reporting a post could somehow be analogous to stabbing someone in the face with a knife forged out of their own concentrated stupid.


#30 Carnathagia

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:58 PM

Haste does have an indirect benefit, it allows you cast more Heal, rather GH.


While this is true theoretically, in practice it doesn't work. Greater Heal is ~260% more throughput for 90% of the efficiency of Heal. Think of Greater Heal as a buff that increases Haste by 260%, mana cost by 10%, and then casts 2.6 Heals. This means it would take a very high amount of Haste to replace even 1 Greater Heal with Heal in a fight.

Hopefully, this example makes it clear:
Using a healing rotation over 6 minutes with 133 Heals and 2 Greater Heals, how much Haste would it take to achieve the same throughput over the same duration with 134 Heals and 1 Greater Heal? Using the example Tier 11 gearset, rotation 1 would give us 5700 HPS and take 299.9 seconds. With the 2nd rotation, we would need 168 Haste rating to match the throughput. So each point of Haste rating lets us replace .006 Greater Heals over a 6 minute fight. To put that into perspective, tank deaths don't occur over 6 minutes, they happen in about 10-15 seconds. So, shortening the rotation to 5 Heals and 2 Greater Heals vs. 6 Heals and 1 Greater Heal, we would need 2614 additional Haste rating to equalize the throughput and save the tank from death. In practice, that means that we need to use Greater Heal when its appropriate, and Heal when it's appropriate.

Also, the math has been done for Critical vs. Haste for Disc throughput. It's not a gut feeling, critical gives more throughput with only 235 Mastery rating, while also giving efficiency.
Emraldè - Resto/Balance Druid - Carnathagia - Holy/Disc Priest - Liltankh - Prot/Fury Warrior
Jovavich - Arcane/Fire Mage

#31 TrlstanC

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:32 PM

When considering the efficiency of GHeal it's important to include Train of Thought. By casting GHeal instead of Heal you can use Inner Focus every 6 casts instead of every 18 (approximately, depending on your haste), that bonus pretty much erases any difference in HPM between the two. As long as my target isn't going to get overhealed I'll always use GHeal over Heal.

#32 MADMark

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:19 PM

While this is true theoretically, in practice it doesn't work. Greater Heal is ~260% more throughput for 90% of the efficiency of Heal...

Also, the math has been done for Critical vs. Haste for Disc throughput. It's not a gut feeling, critical gives more throughput with only 235 Mastery rating, while also giving efficiency.



If you say the haste is irrelevant, so be it; I'm happy to bow to your superior experience. Perhaps there should be an update to the OP? Something like Int > Haste > Mastery (wasn't discussed) > Crit, once you have sufficient Spi.

... it just begs to be repeatedly reported, over and over, as though reporting a post could somehow be analogous to stabbing someone in the face with a knife forged out of their own concentrated stupid.


#33 TheDoctor

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:52 PM

If you say the haste is irrelevant, so be it; I'm happy to bow to your superior experience. Perhaps there should be an update to the OP? Something like Int > Haste > Mastery (wasn't discussed) > Crit, once you have sufficient Spi.


It isn't so much that haste is irrelevant, as that your proposed solution of replacing GHeal is inaccurate.

Now that PW:S spam and the BT haste 'soft cap' are no longer present to the same degree haste can be useful. Though in a mana constrained environment where efficiency is the most important factor... Stacking haste isn't very reasonable as a primary objective. If at some point we need to cast maybe more PoH in an interval of time then we will have more reason to give haste a higher value.

As Carnathagia pointed out Crit is better than Haste... Though that doesn't mean get no Haste only that you shouldn't be stacking it at cost to a more valuable stat.

#34 MADMark

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:12 PM

I didn't say no haste, I said lowest priority, other than say hit/stam/etc. of course. Basically what I'm getting out of this is, if you're missing any of the other stats on a piece, you should reforge it from haste. If there is any minimum value where that doesn't hold or somebody disagrees, please share. Maybe you'd have to use specific gear combinations to be sure, but it doesn't even sound like that's a factor.

... it just begs to be repeatedly reported, over and over, as though reporting a post could somehow be analogous to stabbing someone in the face with a knife forged out of their own concentrated stupid.


#35 Genzen

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:16 AM

Alright, so now I'm curious, since it seems there's two possibilities on how to heal my tank.

On the one hand, it's recommended by the OP to use a SoS-based healing rotation, using Heal to reduce the duration of Weakened Soul, and thus get more shields on my tank.

On the other hand, it seems like it's being suggested to use Greater Heal in place of Heal, and thus get more uses of Inner Focus (meaning more 'free' heals).

Is there one method that's far superior to the other, or are there certain situations where one style is better, and certain other situations where the other is better?

I'm still new to the healing scene; I'm used to being a dps, where everything's black and white and there's always a definitive 'best thing', so I'm trying to get a lot of insight from experienced players etc.

#36 Guest_Alv!ra_*

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:11 AM

I think the answer to that is: Use what you can get away with, without risk of overhealing. Use penance on CD, shield on CD, and otherwise Gheal if that won't overheal. If neither penance or PW:S can be cast, and a gheal risks being partial overhealing, use Heal.

#37 Elerion

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:44 AM

Alright, so now I'm curious, since it seems there's two possibilities on how to heal my tank.

On the one hand, it's recommended by the OP to use a SoS-based healing rotation, using Heal to reduce the duration of Weakened Soul, and thus get more shields on my tank.

On the other hand, it seems like it's being suggested to use Greater Heal in place of Heal, and thus get more uses of Inner Focus (meaning more 'free' heals).

Is there one method that's far superior to the other, or are there certain situations where one style is better, and certain other situations where the other is better?

I'm still new to the healing scene; I'm used to being a dps, where everything's black and white and there's always a definitive 'best thing', so I'm trying to get a lot of insight from experienced players etc.



With Train of Thought, GHeal's mana efficiency is roughly identical to Heal's.

Using the figures and gear set from the OP: Heal has a HPM of 6.67, while GHeal is 5.93. Train of Thought reduces Inner Focus by 5 seconds, which is roughly equivalent to a mana cost reduction on GHeal of 5/45. 5.93 / (1-(5/45)) = 6.67 HPM including Train of Thought. In practice the figure will be slightly lower since Inner Focus will be sitting unused a few seconds here and there, but in general we can state that both spells have roughly identical HPM.

This implies you should GHeal if it won't overheal, otherwise Heal.

With Strength of Soul (healing a single tank) you want to fit at least one Heal into each 12 second rotation to take advantage of Rapture asap after the ICD expires.

Actually, with Shield currently being less efficient than both Heal and GHeal, I believe tank healing disc priests should configure their UI to show Rapture ICD, and only shield the tank when the ICD is up. This makes more than one point in Strength of Soul pointless.

#38 Guest_Alv!ra_*

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:49 AM

Actually, with Shield currently being less efficient than both Heal and GHeal, I believe tank healing disc priests should configure their UI to show Rapture ICD, and only shield the tank when the ICD is up. This makes more than one point in Strength of Soul pointless.


That's a valid point, and if you follow that line of thinking through, then we're currently only shielding the tank for more throughput* during tank-pounding phases (in which case we won't be using Heal in our single target rotation anyways), or for keeping up the Weakened Soul debuff.

But if that's the case, then the points in SoS are at best only usable for making optimal use of Rapture ICD as pointed out by Elerion, but at worst can actually be working against us (i.e. forcing us to re-apply WS debuff on the tank earlier than otherwise, with no net MPH or HPS gain to our rotation).

Perhaps it's worth considering if we should be so interested in reducing the WS debuff in the first place, if we're really only using shield for
1) absorbing heavy incoming damage,
2) As a sort of emergency heal when people are at low health,
3) maintaining the WS debuff for 5% crit,
4) Proccing rapture (Which "only" makes it a nearly mana-free absorb, not a net mana return as we're used to seeing)

Question is, in how many of those situations would there be a WS debuff on the target when we need to apply a shield?

*More throughput in single-target rotation due to shield on tank + BT hasted penance, pom, gheal is more throughput than a similar use of BT where the shield is thrown at an off-target because the tank had WS up)

Sorry if I'm just speculating here without math to back it up, but it seems to me that in practice, there really is no net gain from SoS. Or am I missing something?

#39 Glowyrm

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:51 AM

I think the answer to that is: Use what you can get away with, without risk of overhealing. Use penance on CD, shield on CD, and otherwise Gheal if that won't overheal. If neither penance or PW:S can be cast, and a gheal risks being partial overhealing, use Heal.


GHeal should not be used over Heal with the only criteria being that it won't overheal. GHeal is used when you need to get a big chunk of health to someone because if you just give them a little, they will die or get close to dying within the next few hits.

Another way of putting it is that if their health is dropping faster than Heal can heal, then that's the job for GHeal. Any other time, Heal will be more efficient so it should be used even if the person you're healing is missing 50k HP. As long as he's not STILL losing health at a really rapid rate that Heal can't keep up with. Hope that made sense.

4) Proccing rapture (which is arguably a moot point, as a rapture-proccing shield is barely mana-neutral at our current Mana Pools, according to the table posted in OP)


It's very, very close though. I'm at 90k (maybe a little over) when raiding. That's only about 1500 Int away, which should be met in the first tier or raids. Even at 90k, I'm getting back over 75% of the mana back which is still good. The real problem is the 12 second ICD of Rapture that makes SoS purely for mana procs pretty moot.

On the subject of your post / the quote you quoted...I have found shielding, while slightly less efficient than Heal and GHeal, to save many, many lives during raiding just as it did in WotLK.

#40 Guest_Alv!ra_*

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:59 AM

@ Glowyrm: Assuming Elerions math is correct (and looks to me as if it is), then Heal and Gheal have roughly the same MPH due to Inner Focus cd reduction from gheal, so there's really no need to not use Gheal if it won't be overhealing.

Edit:

On the subject of your post / the quote you quoted...I have found shielding, while slightly less efficient than Heal and GHeal, to save many, many lives during raiding just as it did in WotLK.

And how often had you reduced the WS debuff on those targets through Heal on them prior to shielding?




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