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[Resto] Cataclysm Raiding and Discussion


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#21 Zidders

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 05:24 PM

Great post. Oh man, the last time I was here I was still a druid.

Anywho. The order I've been following, at least in terms of gearing up in heroic gear to raid has been: Spirit / Int > crit > haste > mastery.

I don't really see a point in prioritizing crit over int at any point just because int gives us way too many benefits, mostly those that you listed. Maybe I'm just dead on my feet and need a bit of clarification on your meaning behind it allowing us to take more spirit out.

As for that very last part, I feel like it's going to head that way towards the end for sure. It'll depend on how heroic heroics actually are. We had our first raid of the expansion tonight and did lolBaradin Hold10 and Tron Council25. I finished Baradin with about 30% mana after a tide \ eggshell pop \ concentration potion and nearly solo healed that fight. Tron Council 25 at 50% or so I was at 80% mana still carrying healing on a few of the attempts we did. (Ran out of time and had to call it. Hooray for 10's later today.)

Regen isn't too bad in normals when you're able to handle fight mechanics \ manage damage properly. I assume heroics will be the same way which will basically allow us to move away from spirit all together and use DPS mail towards the end.

My only real question has to do with mastery. I've been thinking that mastery at THIS tier will pull ahead of haste because I don't think there is even close to enough haste in the game to get us up to haste cap for it to even matter. Am I dumb or correct?

#22 Sun_Tzu

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:52 PM

Great post. Oh man, the last time I was here I was still a druid.

...

I don't really see a point in prioritizing crit over int at any point just because int gives us way too many benefits, mostly those that you listed. Maybe I'm just dead on my feet and need a bit of clarification on your meaning behind it allowing us to take more spirit out.


Heh, I came over/returned from the Holy Priest crowd myself ;)

Well, the reason I would be inclined to emphasize crit so highly, and why I believe it allows us to take out spirit, is o/c the water shield procs we get from hw/ghw/hs/ch. Now, I'm working with a basic healing "arsenal" which would use HW as the filler spell, GHW primarily in combination with NS, HS as tank healing/spot healing spell, CH as primary raid healing tool. Riptide on CD and ES on tank, Healing Rain on demand.

Now, the key thing here is HW, as with improved shields each water shield proc is 1743 mana, and the cost of HW is 1981 mana. Assuming say 2 casts per 5 seconds (given Tidal Waves etc.) and 3k combat regen, you're paying about 490 mana per HW. This means that at 490/1743=~28% crit HW becomes "mana neutral", and any crit above that means HW is actually regening mana for you.

This ofcourse also applies to other spells which proc water shield orbs, but HW is the only which is likely to become mana neutral/positive. Anyway, this dramatic regen capacity is what makes me think that getting a high crit % would out-pace the slower crit gains of int, even coupled with spirit regen(diminishing returns) and replenishment, but I can't seem to find the mp5 value estimates of Int in the usual places, so can't really say for certain (or the bloody int -> spell crit conversion at 85 either tbh).

#23 Cyfir

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:45 PM

Hmm, having just gone over some logs of the highest shaman HPS on WoL, I noticed most of them had been dropping out GHW entirely in favour of Healing Surge. Upon closer inspection, this seems to make perfect sense, as the spell is only slightly more expensive and due to the horrible scaling of heals currently, actually delivers quite closely the same amount of healing as GHW but in half the time. Need to try out using a lot more HS/CH instead of GHW next raid, see if that yields an increase in performance.


I put together a speadsheet to model HPS/HPM comparatively in our three direct heals. You can find it here. Bottom line: including Improved Water Shield, HS is almost exactly the same HPM as GHW, and much, much better HPS. Factor in the added flexibility HS adds to your healing, and there's no reason GHW should ever be on your bars, except inasmuch as it is part of a NS macro. HW is *much* lower HPS than either heal, but *much* higher HPM. With high enough crit values, HW approaches mana-neutral.

#24 Zidders

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:19 PM

Oh. Hm. Yeah, I can see where you're going with this. My question to you is what sort of crit levels will it take for you to make prioritizing crit worthwhile?

It would seem like you would need to hit a point like near the end of WOTLK where we were constantly critting.

#25 Cyfir

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:16 PM

Crit is not a viable substitute for SPI for mana regeneration. At a laudable-for-this-tier 25% haste, 1 point of Crit Rating comes out to .301 mp5 casting a Tidal Wave'd HW or GHW, and .243 mp5 casting any other direct heal. At 4000 INT, 1 point of SPI is worth 1.06 mp5.

#26 Sun_Tzu

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:23 PM

Crit is not a viable substitute for SPI for mana regeneration. At a laudable-for-this-tier 25% haste, 1 point of Crit Rating comes out to .301 mp5 casting a Tidal Wave'd HW or GHW, and .243 mp5 casting any other direct heal. At 4000 INT, 1 point of SPI is worth 1.06 mp5.


But if you need 1 mp5 and you have 4 statpoints to spare, 3 crit gives you what you need, but it also gives you throughput, where as SPI just gives you more regen. If you needed limitless regen, sure, spirit would always be the best choice, but because you only need enough, crit is in fact a viable substitute at a given point.

#27 Cyfir

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:45 PM

But if you need 1 mp5 and you have 4 statpoints to spare, 3 crit gives you what you need, but it also gives you throughput, where as SPI just gives you more regen. If you needed limitless regen, sure, spirit would always be the best choice, but because you only need enough, crit is in fact a viable substitute at a given point.


That would be true if there wasn't a better throughput stat than crit. However, haste is a far superior stat for throughput. 1 spirit and 3 haste will give you better throughput than 4 crit, while providing similar benefit in regen, while having the added advantage of being more flexible and predictable in your healing output.

#28 Corunix

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:06 AM

The problem with Mastery is this - it affects the exact same healing issue as crit (throughput) with only a modest increase in value, even at optimal performance levels (e.g. when the target is at extremely low health.).


I believe that your spreadsheet contains a computational error or you do not take into account the fact that 1 mastery point equals 2,5% bonus.
13% crit, 20% mastery (baseline), 6500 non-crit HW on 100% target.
Let's assume 90% bonus for crit (50% from crit and 27% from AA) and try to add 5% crit or mastery at the expense of the same amount of rating (1% crit costs as much rating as 1 point of mastery does).

80% hp target:
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,2) = 7855
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,2) = 7732

66% hp target:
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,33) = 8051
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,33) = 8039

50% hp target (normal stuff nowadays):
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,5) = 8308
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,5) = 8440

33% hp target (tank hit by something bad or just someone was standing in the wrong place):
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,66) = 8549
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,66) = 8817

Hypothetical 1% health target:
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,99) = 9048
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,99) = 9451

So, if your targets are lower than ~60% HP, mastery is better than crit for direct heals in terms of HPS with zero overhealing (up to 5% bonus for 5%-equivalent rating spent).
Of course, the regen and utility of IWS and AF should be taken into account, along with the fact that indirect healing (hots) now contribute much larger amount of our healing, being affected by crit but unaffected by mastery.

#29 Guest_alcapawn_*

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:11 PM

The problem with Mastery is this - it affects the exact same healing issue as crit (throughput) with only a modest increase in value, even at optimal performance levels (e.g. when the target is at extremely low health.)


Isn't this discussion analog to the tank mitigation/survival gearing? Crit might be a more valuable stat over a longer fight given expected crit rates. But in the worst case scenario, where someone has taken a large chunk of damage and is in need of a big heal, you can always count on the boost from the mastery, but even with extremely high crit chance - a bad streak can leave you completely un-boosted by your crit.

This would leave mastery as a more predictable way to boost your healing in an environment where you know you will be healing target with low HP - progression raiding. Or have I misunderstood the Deep Healing mechanics? Is there a random element I'm not aware of?

#30 Keiyakusha

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:37 PM

Been keeping this to myself for a while, as I wanted to be sure, but I think now is a good time to share. The UL bonus is affecting Riptide's HoT and will linger long enough for you to cast a heal into a queued Riptide and gain that 30% boost to the heal, Riptide's DH, and Riptide's HoT. I generally have UL on constant cooldown as a result of this. This works 100% of the time (it's dependable).

Also Focused Insight still doesn't affect Riptide's HoT despite not explicitly saying direct heal. I wonder if the IDs for these effects got mixed up unintentionally?

On another note I find crit and Mastery to be complementary stats. If you crit a low health player they are both working together, but if you don't crit at least you still had Mastery. Wouldn't the odd man out be Haste at this point? I notice people mentioning Shaman reports where HS is being favored over GHW. Wouldn't a compelling reason for this be the 30% crit provided by Tidal Waves providing more HPM (I'm including both the added healing of a crit and the regen provided by Improved Water Shield) over the course of a fight than GHW? Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

#31 Guest_alizat_*

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:52 PM

From personal experience in using Tellturic Currents, 1/2 gives a negative mana return by about 300 give or take a few hundred.

But 2/2 has been doing me just fine. Just going off base mana, LB for me is 1405 mana. I haven't been looking at the straight damage of LB, but I've been watching my mana return, and I'm getting anywhere as low as 1780 to as high as 3008 mana returned. So we'll say a positive mana gain of anywhere between 303 and 1603.

Granted though, I haven't gone into a raid yet, But for heroics it's came in handy PLENTY of times as a last minute ditch to get some mana back and heal the tank to kill a boss.

As for Mastery, I haven't seen the numbers, and I haven't really been able to find a time when mastery saved me, but that's possibly only because it's one of those things that can be easily mistaken for something else causing the bigger heal or save of sorts. I -feel- like I'd want mastery higher, I've reforged my gear into it atleast, but as everyone else is feeling the pull of the casts, I'll probably do what this says and switch over to haste and gem up some different gems.

#32 exschwizer

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:53 PM

Bottom line: including Improved Water Shield, HS is almost exactly the same HPM as GHW, and much, much better HPS. Factor in the added flexibility HS adds to your healing, and there's no reason GHW should ever be on your bars, except inasmuch as it is part of a NS macro. HW is *much* lower HPS than either heal, but *much* higher HPM. With high enough crit values, HW approaches mana-neutral.

GHW can fill the role of heavy tank damage phases when mana restraints will kick in. In HPS terms we have HS>GHW>HW and in HPM terms HW>GHW>HS. GHW is the middle ground. And there is also no reason to heal the target of a random single target boss effect with HS, if it is not in intermediate danger of dying. Also, GHW can be precasted to end with the impact of casted special boss attacks. To use all the healing tools we have in the right circumstances and keeping an eye out for these opportunities will seperate the excellent Resto-Shaman from acceptable, in my eyes. But we will see after the first HM kills, if such skill will be rewarded.
And could you please elaborate the calculations you did in your spreadsheet concerning Mastery, preferably in the sheet itself. I have a hard time following your train of thought there. I appreciate the effort!

#33 Cyfir

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:17 PM

I believe that your spreadsheet contains a computational error or you do not take into account the fact that 1 mastery point equals 2,5% bonus.
13% crit, 20% mastery (baseline), 6500 non-crit HW on 100% target.
Let's assume 90% bonus for crit (50% from crit and 27% from AA) and try to add 5% crit or mastery at the expense of the same amount of rating (1% crit costs as much rating as 1 point of mastery does).

Hypothetical 1% health target:
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,99) = 9048
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,99) = 9451

So, if your targets are lower than ~60% HP, mastery is better than crit for direct heals in terms of HPS with zero overhealing (up to 5% bonus for 5%-equivalent rating spent).
Of course, the regen and utility of IWS and AF should be taken into account, along with the fact that indirect healing (hots) now contribute much larger amount of our healing, being affected by crit but unaffected by mastery.


I did have a computational error, incidentally however it was actually over-valuing mastery. It's now updated. To get the average value of a heal, factoring in crit and mastery, it would look like this:

critHeal = baseHeal * 1.5
AAHeal = critHeal * .286
masteryEffect = (baseMastery+gearMastery*.025)*(1-targetHealthPercent)
critValue = (1-critChance)*baseHeal + critChance(critHeal+AAHeal)
totalHeal = critValue*(1+masteryEffect)

Plugging everything in, we get:

totalHeal = ((1-critChance)*baseHeal + critChance(baseHeal*1.5 + baseHeal*1.5*1.286))*(1+(.2+gearMastery*.025)*(1-targetHealthPercent))

Simplified:

totalHeal = baseHeal (1 + .929*critChance)*(1+(.2+gearMastery*.025)*(1-targetHealthPercent))

This is what you've put together, and you're correct. Your example leaves out two things, however:

First, as the value of Mastery increases, it increases the effect on your critical heals as well. The differential between adding crit and adding mastery will thus be affected by diminishing returns. In fact, at exceptionally high levels of mastery and low levels of crit, mastery actually becomes less effective at throughput. The second sheet I've added to the spreadsheet will show this, but you're better off manipulating that data on your own computer as an excel - it runs very slowly.

Secondly, please note that comparing a 5%/5pt increase against a 1%/1pt increase involves issues of scale, and will therefore give you different results.

Isn't this discussion analog to the tank mitigation/survival gearing? Crit might be a more valuable stat over a longer fight given expected crit rates. But in the worst case scenario, where someone has taken a large chunk of damage and is in need of a big heal, you can always count on the boost from the mastery, but even with extremely high crit chance - a bad streak can leave you completely un-boosted by your crit.

This would leave mastery as a more predictable way to boost your healing in an environment where you know you will be healing target with low HP - progression raiding. Or have I misunderstood the Deep Healing mechanics? Is there a random element I'm not aware of?


It is similar, but to make it directly equivalent, you would need a tank who gave the healers mana when he dodged/parried/blocked (Imp. Water Shield) and procced 10% damage reduction (AH). Mastery may have a more reliable effect, but the additional effects from talents are what makes crit the more desirable stat. Without those effects, mastery would be the better choice in almost any situation that mattered.

GHW can fill the role of heavy tank damage phases when mana restraints will kick in. In HPS terms we have HS>GHW>HW and in HPM terms HW>GHW>HS. GHW is the middle ground.


As the linked speadsheet shows, GHW is only better HPM than HS if you're not casting it under Tidal Waves. Since we can assume you will be using TW under most, if not all, circumstances, we can say that HS is better HPM and HPS than GHW in virtually all situations. This is because the extra 30% crit for HS significantly increases its mana efficiency from Imp. Water Shield procs.

#34 Spoonicus

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 11:34 PM

After switching to HW over GHW i find that while I dont OoM as often, I im not quite healing to the level I should. At what point of SpellPower/Haster/Crit does HW become a reasonable to use spell during periods of medium to heavy damage?
Also I've found that Spiritwalkers Grace is actually rather good for resto shamans. When it says "cast while moving" it quite literally means that, and you can continue casting while in freefall, trapped by cyclones, or during periods of knockback.

#35 Corunix

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 11:36 PM

I did have a computational error, incidentally however it was actually over-valuing mastery. It's now updated. Your order of operations is a bit off. To get the average value of a heal, factoring in crit and mastery, it would look like this:
...

totalHeal = (baseHeal + .929*critChance*baseHeal)*(1+(.2+gearMastery*.025)*(1-targetHealthPercent))


I'm sorry, but I fail to see how this is any different from my formula (especially in terms of order of operations), except for the 0.929 instead of 0.9 crit scale:

Hypothetical 1% health target:
crit-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,18 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,2 * 0,99) = 9048
mastery-powered heal = 6500 * (1 + 0,13 * 0,9) * (1 + 0,325 * 0,99) = 9451


Also, your spreadsheet demostrates that mastery is better than crit when target is below ~60%.
I agree that crit is a proper competitor to mastery, especially on the regen and "smart" healing AA nature, yet I think that mastery has it's value as a baseline boost to healing which cannot be cast aside easily (one can't rely on crits when at around 20-25% raidbuffed, also the "smart" portion of healing might get wasted when there's some sort of decimate or healing absorb ability on the encounter).

#36 Cyfir

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:01 AM

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how this is any different from my formula (especially in terms of order of operations), except for the 0.929 instead of 0.9 crit scale:

Also, your spreadsheet demostrates that mastery is better than crit when target is below ~60%.
I agree that crit is a proper competitor to mastery, especially on the regen and "smart" healing AA nature, yet I think that mastery has it's value as a baseline boost to healing which cannot be cast aside easily (one can't rely on crits when at around 20-25% raidbuffed, also the "smart" portion of healing might get wasted when there's some sort of decimate or healing absorb ability on the encounter).


You are correct about our formulae; I have updated my post to not call you out incorrectly. However, you appear to ignore the other two issues (Mastery suffers from DR; %5/5 does not equal 1%/1.) Again, there's no question that Mastery in most circumstances is better throughput. What makes crit the better overall stat is 1) 1 CR is about equal to 1/3 SPI in terms of mana regen, and 2) Mastery does not proc AH.

EDIT: The bottom line is this - crit and mastery are not directly analogous stats. Mastery provides only throughput; crit provides slightly less throughput in exchange for efficiency and AH procs. If we're going to compare for min/maxing your gear, and you accept 1 CR as ~ 1/3 SPI for mana regen, then you would need enough additional throughput from mastery such that 3 CR < 2 MR + 1 SPI, and that doesn't even consider AH procs. MR is nowhere near that.

#37 ellotheth

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:36 AM

Been keeping this to myself for a while, as I wanted to be sure, but I think now is a good time to share. The UL bonus is affecting Riptide's HoT and will linger long enough for you to cast a heal into a queued Riptide and gain that 30% boost to the heal, Riptide's DH, and Riptide's HoT. I generally have UL on constant cooldown as a result of this. This works 100% of the time (it's dependable).


Same here, obligatory combat log snip:
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",5066,5066,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8","BUFF",,,
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",,,,
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1597,1597,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1597,1597,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",2395,2395,0,1
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1597,1597,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1597,1597,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1596,1596,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1597,1597,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",2395,2395,0,1
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8","BUFF",,,
"Lotiel","0x511",73685,"Unleash Life","0x8",4322,4322,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",73685,"Unleash Life","0x8","BUFF",,,
"Lotiel","0x511",73680,"Unleash Elements","0x1",,,,
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",6448,6448,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8","BUFF",,,
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",,,,
"Lotiel","0x511",73685,"Unleash Life","0x8","BUFF",,,
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",1887,1887,0,"nil"
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8",2830,2830,0,1
"Lotiel","0x511",61295,"Riptide","0x8","BUFF",,,
That's tasty.

#38 Draewind

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 02:04 PM

I am about to do my first raid tonight. I have found, that in 5man heroics, Telluric Currents is almost a necessity, but I am going to drop it for raiding. I am oom just as the boss dies in good groups, so I am going to try the routine listed by prim0c. Chain Heal appears to be useless. I don't even have it on a top priority bind anymore. It is a ctrl-left or right ... I forget. Greater Healing Wave is all I have to really heal. I like Healing Rain, and will get much more use of it in raids. Healing surge is quick, but not very effective and I am oom as we are wiping because of it.

The Spi, Mastery, and Crit are difficult for me to determine. Haste seems to be a pie in the sky at this gear level.

What has the math told us about HEP? I am using:
Haste 2.5
Int 2.4
Crit 1.6
Spi 1.3
SP 1
Matery 0.6

EDIT:
For now I have decided not to reforge Spirit. I will reforge Mastery to Haste or Crit if Haste is already on the item. I put in red sockets, in yellow sockets, and in blue sockets (Meta = ). Once I get into better gear and know more about the environmental demands, I will better be able to judge.

I'll look at it again in the raid tonight, but my main question is this:

Is Chain Heal dead?

EDIT:
After running a raid, I would say not. Chain Heal still has a place in raid healing. For the heroics, I found that the routine given by prim0c has saved the day. I no longer spec into Telluric Currents. Many thanks.

#39 Levva

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:23 PM

Same here, obligatory combat log snip:

"Lotiel","0x511",73685,"Unleash Life","0x8",4322,4322,0,"nil"


What was your spellpower with that? The heal was 4322, the base is average 1995 so it looks like you are getting 2327 heal which assuming you have around 5.5k SP gives co-efficient in the range of 42% are you able to do more testing with different SP and get some more logs to narrow down the SP vs heal range so we can establish the co-efficent.


I did some numbers on Telluric Currents which suggests that due to lack of hit it is NOT reliable and on average will cost you mana. Edit: Note that due to the far lower miss rate you WILL gain mana in heroics but this calc is for Raiding as Heroics aren't really important.

LB cost 6% base mana. Base mana at lvl 85 is 23430. Therefore LB costs 1406 mana. With Teluric Currents the return is 20% of the damage dealt per point I'll assume 2 pts spent.

Base av LB damage is 770 and the co-efficient is 0.713999987 * sp. Miss rate assuming no +hit is 17% (hit rate is therefore 83%).

Total damage done is therefore hitrate * ((1 - crit) * (770 + 0.713999987 * sp) + crit * 1.5 * (770 + 0.713999987 * sp))

The *1.5 is because spells do 50% more damage when crit. Now lets assume 20% crit and 5k spellpower obviously you can fill in your own numbers.

Total damage is 0.83 * ((1-.2) * (770 + 0.713999987 * 5000) + 0.2 * 1.5 * (770 + 0.713999987 * 5000)) = 0.83 * ((0.8 * 3570) + (0.3 * 3570)) = 3141.6 damage. Now if you are only getting 40% back you get back 40% of 3141.6 which is 1256.64 mana returned vs 1406 mana spent a net COST of 149 mana.

Now of course as you get more crit and more SP these figures will change. However the average is that due to the 17% miss rate TC is on average costing you 149 mana. At better gear or with a very small amount of hit (pointless for Resto though) you will have a net gain but at current gear levels its a net cost.

Since these numbers fly in the face of what was suggested by others I can't help but think I've missed something out. Is there something that lowers LB cost? You don't take convection and I can't see an obvious damage multiplier I'm missing.


On UE I did some numbers on MMO-Champion thread but forgot about the intial heal anyway in case it helps the calcs were...

Unleash Elements costs 7% base mana and boosts heal by 30% - 20% base * 50% boost from Elemental Weapons.

Its usual use as far as I can see is to boost GHW or CH. For a GHW the cost is 30% base mana. Since base mana at 85 is 23430 mana this is a 7029 mana cost. UE is a 1640 cost. This then means you can spend 1640/7029 = 23% more mana for a 30% healing boost if you prefix a GHW with a UE.

So UE+GHW = 8669 mana for 1.3 * GHW vs 14058 mana for 2 * GHW. However UE+GHW = 4.5 sec cast (reduced by haste) vs GHW+GHW 6 sec cast (reduced by haste). ie: UE is only boosting your heal by 5.4% over what casting two GHW back to back cost.

However since UE uses a GCD the difference is simply cast time. UE+GHW = 1.5sec+3sec hasted down to your level of haste. So it takes 4.5/6 = 75% of the time and is 5.4% better. So overall the boost seems to be 40.54% if you cast UE+GHW vs GHW+GHW

For Chain Heal its less as mana cost is 20% so the costs are 4686 mana vs 6326 ie: 35% more mana for 30% healing boost. The casts are UE+CH = 3.5 sec (reduced by haste) vs 4 sec (reduced by haste).

So the costs are 6326 mana for UE+CH vs 9372 for CH+CH for a 3.5sec vs 4 sec cast thus by the same calcs above we get only a 10.05% boost by using UE+CH. Still that's decent.

All this assumes 2 points in Elemental Weapons.


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#40 Pewpewfurie

Pewpewfurie

    Glass Joe

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:15 PM

I am about to do my first raid tonight. I have found, that in 5man heroics, Telluric Currents is almost a necessity, but i am going to drop it for raiding. I am oom just as the boss dies in good groups, so I am going to try the routine listed by prim0c (below). Chain Heal appears to be useless. I don't even have it on a top priority bind anymore. It is a ctrl-left or right ... I forget. Greater Healing Wave is all I have to really heal, and since I have over used it, I will try to use the routine by prim0c below. I like Healing Rain, and will get much more use of it in raids. Healing surge is quick, but not very effective and I am oom as we are wiping because of it. All I can think of doing at this point is piling on the haste, but there doesn't seem to be room with current level of gear. I don't see spirit as priority, even though it is our only regen tool, which won't help if we're dead because I was too slow. I will not reforge out of it, but I will use tools like food buffs and flasks and trinkets to boost it.

The Spi, Mastery, and Crit are difficult for me to determine. Haste seems to be a pie in the sky at this gear level.

What has the math told us about HEP? I am using:
Haste 2.5
Int 2.4
Crit 1.6
SP 1
Spi 1.3
Matery 0.6

I'll look at it again in the raid tonight, but my main question is this:

Is Chain Heal dead?



My guild is currently 5/12(10man) 4/12(25man) and we are pushing for 7/12(10man) tonight. The only fight I have used Chain Heal on so far is Magmaw, and I have used it heavily.

However, I do not think that you should drop TC at all, for me it has been an integral part of almost every raid encounter thus far.

Omnitron Defense System - I use it during Arcanotron's pool, deals extra damage while regening mana.
Mag'maw - Exposed head phase, 10%-100% mana every phase.
Conclave of Winds - Both on the Anshal and Rohash platform, you have windows of 10+ seconds where you can LB spam.
Halfus Wyrmrest - 150% damage bonus, a lot of time to regen mana prior to Furious Roar.
Double Dragon - Used much less here, but I have used this occationally during HR CD when raid damage isn't high.
Argaloth - UE+HR every Meteor Slash, LB spam in between.

Having TC allowed me to be very liberal with my mana and I have to say so far from my raiding experience in Cataclysm, it's the best 2 point investment in the resto tree.

Originally posted by Levva.
I did some numbers on Telluric Currents which suggests that due to lack of hit it is NOT reliable and on average will cost you mana. Edit: Note that due to the far lower miss rate you WILL gain mana in heroics but this calc is for Raiding as Heroics aren't really important.


Having around 6400 SP in raid, my LB is averaging 5500 a hit, that's returning 800mana assuming the LB hits. Even discounting encounters where you have damage bonus, I have always experienced mana gain spamming LB. For example on Argaloth, if you only use UE+HR for Meteor Slash and exclusively LB in between the CDs, you can almost stay full mana.




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