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[Resto] Cataclysm Raiding and Discussion


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#41 Hamano

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:59 PM

Having TC allowed me to be very liberal with my mana and I have to say so far from my raiding experience in Cataclysm, it's the best 2 point investment in the resto tree.
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Isn't the reason that you can be very liberal with your mana also that (it seems like) you are actually spending more time dps'ing than healing. It's not even close to the best two points either, because you have to give up some other really good talents for it (Either at least 2% crit, or the 10% damage reduction)

This is purely theoretical, but I also highly doubt there will be alot of time to spent on dps'ing during the heroic versions of the bosses

#42 dgkiller

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:09 PM

if you only use UE+HR for Meteor Slash and exclusively LB in between the CDs, you can almost stay full mana.


UE currently does not increase HR value, if you use HR after UE, it will not consume the UE effect waiting for the next healing spell, probably intended.

#43 initium

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:25 PM

Having around 6400 SP in raid, my LB is averaging 5500 a hit, that's returning 800mana assuming the LB hits. Even discounting encounters where you have damage bonus, I have always experienced mana gain spamming LB. For example on Argaloth, if you only use UE+HR for Meteor Slash and exclusively LB in between the CDs, you can almost stay full mana.



I did some math using these numbers, and here's what it shows. Please correct any math on this, it's my first time doing anything like this for wow.

800 mana per hit would work out to 1900 mana per crit. (5500 * 1.5 = 8250 * .4 = 3300 - 1400 cost of LB)

Assuming a 17% miss rate on raid bosses (I don't think anyone is wearing hit gear), and a 17.11% crit chance (based on my armory) I come up with a net gain of 820.2143 mana for 2/2 TC

here was my formula in excel:

(800 * .83) + (1100 * .1711 * .83 )


Edit: had wrong math on mana from crits
This look right to everyone?


Seeing as we won't be adding hit as gear improves, but we will be adding spell power and crit, i figured i would graph out how TC would scale.

here is what it looks like as crit chance improves, very linear. Every point of crit (at this amount of spell power) is worth 9 mana per LB, more as spell power increases

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#44 Sardaukar

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:24 PM

I think a lot of people are looking at regen stats vs haste and thinking about it in an outdated WotLK way. Haste increases your HPS a lot, just like in WotLK, but spirit and mana regen focused gear doesn't just increase your regen at the expense of throughput - it also increases your throughput greatly. Why is that? Because unlike in WotLK when we always used our highest HPS heals, regardless of mana, having high regen now lets a healer more freely use their more expensive, faster heals like surge and greater healing wave. Spirit doesn't increase your throughput in any easily measurable way, but in an intangible 'Its ok to chain a few healing surges when I need high HPS because I can regen' kind of way.

As far as TC goes, I've done 5 bosses so far and I just have not really felt comfortable nuking all that much other than the Magmaw fight.

#45 mersenne

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:12 PM

GHW can fill the role of heavy tank damage phases when mana restraints will kick in. In HPS terms we have HS>GHW>HW and in HPM terms HW>GHW>HS. GHW is the middle ground. And there is also no reason to heal the target of a random single target boss effect with HS, if it is not in intermediate danger of dying. Also, GHW can be precasted to end with the impact of casted special boss attacks. To use all the healing tools we have in the right circumstances and keeping an eye out for these opportunities will seperate the excellent Resto-Shaman from acceptable, in my eyes. But we will see after the first HM kills, if such skill will be rewarded.


Calculations I've done indicate that HS actually has better HPM than GHW when you have TW. This is because of the increased HS crit chance from TW granting more mana from IWS, and is the case despite the lower IWS proc chance from HS. Of course, HS also has better HPS than GHW with this crit chance increase, due to AA, and also increases AH uptime (albeit perhaps by a negligible amount in a raid). HS is also just plain faster, which means more time for Lightning Bolts, repositioning, etc. So unless I've erred in my calculations, it may be time to move GHW to an out-of-the-way keybind.

The base healing amounts I used in my calculations are estimations of the average - I wasn't able to find the actual values. Corrected values would be great but these should be close enough to tell us which spell is better.

Assume Tidal Waves, with 30% additional chance to crit Healing Surge.
SP = your spellpower
CR = your crit chance
HST = your haste

HS_basehealing = 7697
HS_coeff = 0.604
HS_casttime = 1.5 / (HST + 1) sec

HS_truehealing = (1-CR-.3)*(SP*.604+7697) + (CR+.3)*(SP*.604+7697)*1.8
                     ^ non-crit heals          ^ crit heals w/ AA

HS_basecost = 5946 mana
HS_truecost = (1-CR-.3)*5946 + (CR+.3)*[ (.6*4201) + (.4*5946) ]
               ^non-crits        ^crits w/ Improved Water Shield's 60% proc


GHW_basehealing = 10255
GHW_coeff = .806
GHW_casttime = 2.5 / 1.3 / (HST + 1) = 1.923 / (HST + 1)
                      ^ Tidal Waves' 30% cast time reduction for GHW
GHW_truehealing = (1-CR)*(SP*.806+10255) + CR*(SP*.806+10255)*1.8
                     ^ non-crit heals        ^ crit heals w/ AA

GHW_basecost = 6607
GHW_truecost = (1-CR)*6607 + CR*4862
                ^non-crits    ^crits w/ Improved Water Shield's 100% proc

I've posted a very rudimentary spreadsheet with these formulas plus HPS formulas on Google Docs, linked below:
https://spreadsheets...MXc&hl=en#gid=0
The inputs given are my current self-buffed stats. (My Shaman is just barely in heroics...)
Playing around with the inputs reveals that HS will always have better HPM and HPS than GHW with all feasible values for SP and CR.
And in practice, it really does feel better on my mana to never use GHW under TW. (Choosing a heal when you don't have TW is another story...) I heard through the grapevine that top-level raiding Shaman are forgoing GHW altogether - while I haven't done any research into this trend, I wouldn't be surprised if they came to the same conclusion I did.

Of course, if I screwed this up somewhere I'd be more than happy to edit/redact as necessary. Thanks for reading.

#46 Draewind

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 02:00 AM

I travel too much to get down to the math. I would find it helpful if someone could do a breakdown on the mana return of Crit rating. Because of Improved Water Shield, the critical strikes of our heals will trigger a mana return. It seems quite sizable. The lower cast time of Healing Surge, coupled with its lower critical strike trigger on Improved Water Shield, will keep it and Greater Healing Wave at a fairly constant mana return. Play styles then will have very little effect on the mana returns we get from Improved Water Shield being triggered.

Critical strikes then return mana, Crit rating (and Intellect) will then affect mana return. How does that affect compare to the mana return gained through Spirit. What is the "In Combat" mana return we can expect from let's say:

100 Spirit = ? In combat mana return
100 Critical Strike = ? In combat mana return
100 Intellect = ? In combat mana return

Before we can evaluate the importance of Spirit to the Resto-Shaman, we must know exactly what we are sacrificing when we get Spirit instead of Crit or Intellect.

I think our first concern should be to evaluate mana return as product of critical strikes and find out if perhaps the critical strike is the key to mana regen. A shaman that concentrates on Crit return, may have better mana regen than one that concentrates on Spirit stacking to regen mana. I don't have the time to do the math, but would appreciate it if one of you could do the evaluation for me. We might have a "gold mine" right in front of us.

Mastery is something that will never be constant for any two Shamans. If you are in a group with borderline healing, Mastery may be very valuable (such as during progression). If you are in a well established group where your healing demands are seldom pushed to the limit, Mastery will not be as valuable. Evaluating Mastery will not be complete until the stable known quantities like Spirit, Crit, and Intellect are completely evaluated.

#47 Cyfir

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 02:57 AM

The spreadsheet here models crit vs. spirit. The data on the left models the mp5 equivalent of 1 Crit Rating. The data on the right models 1 Crit Rating as a fraction of a point of Spirit. As has been stated before, stacking crit is not a viable substitute for Spirit. Depending on the variables and the spell in question, 1 point of Crit Rating offers the same mana return as 1/6 to 1/3 a point of SPI for reasonable values of INT and haste.

#48 Morianna

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 04:50 AM

I've posted a very rudimentary spreadsheet with these formulas on Google Docs, linked below:
https://spreadsheets...MXc&hl=en#gid=0
The inputs given are my current self-buffed stats. (My Shaman is just barely in heroics...)
Playing around with the inputs reveals that HS will always have better HPM and HPS than GHW with all feasible values for SP and CR.
And in practice, it really does feel better on my mana to never use GHW under TW. (Choosing a heal when you don't have TW is another story...) I heard through the grapevine that top-level raiding Shaman are forgoing GHW altogether - while I haven't done any research into this trend, I wouldn't be surprised if they came to the same conclusion I did.

Of course, if I screwed this up somewhere I'd be more than happy to edit/redact as necessary. Thanks for reading.


My only concern on this - if you're factoring in the crit of tidal waves, shouldn't you use the reduced cast time of GHW with tidal waves?

#49 mkultra55

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 09:23 PM

Calculations I've done indicate that HS actually has better HPM than GHW when you have TW. This is because of the increased HS crit chance from TW granting more mana from IWS, and is the case despite the lower IWS proc chance from HS. Of course, HS also has better HPS than GHW with this crit chance increase, due to AA, and also increases AH uptime (albeit perhaps by a negligible amount in a raid). HS is also just plain faster, which means more time for Lightning Bolts, repositioning, etc. So unless I've erred in my calculations, it may be time to move GHW to an out-of-the-way keybind.



Hmm. I've been running some numbers myself (I want to give them a once over and compare my findings to a couple of logs before I post them).

My numbers took into account the added crit for HS as well as the added Haste for GHW and every time I run my Spreadsheet I get almost identical HPM and HPS for RT/HS/HS vs RT GHW/GHW. GHW worked out to have slightly more overall healing for a 6 minute fight but HS was way ahead in the number of AA procs.

#50 Clyo

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 03:37 AM

I've done some testing regarding our spells with mastery, unleash life, shock buff (focused insight), and earth shield buff (nature's blessing). Here's what i found out.

[TABLE]Spell | Mastery | Unleash | Shock | Earth Shield
Riptide Direct | X | X | X | X
Riptide HoT | o | X | o | X*
Chain Heal | X | X | X | X**
Healing Rain | X*** | o | o | o
Earthliving HoT | o | o | o | o
Earth Shield | o | o | o | o
[/TABLE]

* = Check occurs at the time RT is cast (not per tick)
** = Only the bounce that hits shielded target gets the buff
*** = Mastery bonus is re-calculated every tick.

Opinion: This is somewhat disappointing for mastery, since it doesn't apply to earth shield or the earthliving hot, which are both often applied to low-health targets. Also, unleash and shock buffs can't be used on our biggest single spell, healing rain. The per-tick mastery bonus on healing rain is nice, and makes it a good candidate to pre-cast before big aoe damage lands.

#51 mersenne

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 08:55 AM

My only concern on this - if you're factoring in the crit of tidal waves, shouldn't you use the reduced cast time of GHW with tidal waves?


Oh, it's actually accounted for in the spreadsheet (B14=B11/(2.5/1.3/(D4+1))), but I failed to write that in the post. Sorry - fixed now.

#52 Totemanic

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 01:03 PM

Although not specifically for shamans, and can currently both be used at the same time. I assume it will be fixed at some point.

Also, with regard to the Telluric Currents debate, I have found it invaluable on a few fights (Magmaw, Halfus) where you can easily regen your entire mana bar many times over the fight. But more importantly than that it is nice to be able to cast LB in burn phases knowing you don't have to save mana for it (Chimaeron < 20% for example). I'd definitely never raid without it.

#53 Rahdik

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:19 AM

Although a bit silly, it may still be decent to go back to as one of our trinkets. Time it with Mana Tide and you get some pretty crazy regen.

#54 WraithTwo

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:50 AM

I just bought a Blue Dragon to test, and yes, it does provide 100% of your Spirit based regen on a proc.

#55 Kraylessa

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:11 PM

I read in an earlier post that UE affects the healing of Riptide, but does not actually consume the UE buff, meaning you can essentially get the 30% bonus to Riptide and an additional spell. Because of this, I'm trying to come up with some sort of macro to cast UE before RT whenever it's off cooldown. Does anyone know how I can set something like that up? I'm guessing it could be done with a castsequence macro?

#56 seqo

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:20 PM

That is incorrect Krayleyna. What was mentioned in an earlier post was that the UnL buff lasts long enough that if you queue a Riptide after any heal, that heal, the subsequent RT direct heal and the RT HoT all benefit from the increased healing from UnL.

If a Riptide simply follows a UE, the buff is consumed.

#57 Vice

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:15 PM

I'm curious as to the interaction between CH, UE, and Riptide. What kind of direct healing can we see if we cast UE+CH into a target that has Riptide? Do the 25% from Riptide and the 30% (talented) from UE stack additively or multiplicatively (call Webster) or do they stack at all? If multiplicative we could see an increase of 1.25*1.3=1.625 or 62.5% increase for all jumps of Chain Heal making the spell quite useful.

#58 EnigmaZero

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 02:31 PM

I'm curious as to the interaction between CH, UE, and Riptide. What kind of direct healing can we see if we cast UE+CH into a target that has Riptide? Do the 25% from Riptide and the 30% (talented) from UE stack additively or multiplicatively (call Webster) or do they stack at all? If multiplicative we could see an increase of 1.25*1.3=1.625 or 62.5% increase for all jumps of Chain Heal making the spell quite useful.


This sounds tasty, but don't forget you're using 2 GCDs and you're completely losing the HOT component of the riptide, which causes you to actually do less overall HPM and HPS. I've been using UE before CH occasionally, but more often when I know group damage is about to come but hasn't yet (dispelling Valiona's blackout is a perfect example of this). For riptide it seems to me like it's usually better to just let the hots roll.

#59 Guest_alcapawn_*

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:03 AM

This sounds tasty, but don't forget you're using 2 GCDs and you're completely losing the HOT component of the riptide, which causes you to actually do less overall HPM and HPS. I've been using UE before CH occasionally, but more often when I know group damage is about to come but hasn't yet (dispelling Valiona's blackout is a perfect example of this). For riptide it seems to me like it's usually better to just let the hots roll.


Assuming that you roll glyphed riptides and not only track the target it's at but also the duration left on the hot you can target a player with as little as a single tick left on the riptide with the chain heal, thus losing pretty much none of the riptide hot. (Of course this can also be done with non-glyphed RT but you're less likely to have a proper target at any given time, positioning-wise at least). So in cases where these circumstances line up and your UE is off cooldown it should be a valid way to play. A bit hard to plan for though.

#60 Cheesenips

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

That is incorrect Krayleyna. What was mentioned in an earlier post was that the UnL buff lasts long enough that if you queue a Riptide after any heal, that heal, the subsequent RT direct heal and the RT HoT all benefit from the increased healing from UnL.

If a Riptide simply follows a UE, the buff is consumed.


1. I've noticed that Riptide and ES consume UE. I assume UE + ES won't benefit from the bonus, since ES is not a hot or direct heal. I ran H Deadmines using the UE + ES combo and didn't notice a big increase from ES healing (following percent). Are others having the same results?

2. I've seen a split in CH and spot healing (HW) in early raiding. I'm not seeing the crazy proc effect of HW we did in late wrath.
e.g. Completely Different: Inziladun, 10 man
Primary heal, by count: HW (91)
RT (56)
AA (37) % of total healing 4.2
EL % of total healing 6
Compared to Play: Stattix, 25 man. Stattix mostly CH'd off the tank, Inziladun spot healed 4 - 5.
Primary heal: CH (86)
RT (16)
AA (25????) % of total healing 4.5 (21 HW, 2 GHW total)
EL % of total healing 7.8
If AA only proc's off LHW and HW crits, how did Stattix proc 25 AA with 21% crit?
With the proc rate off HW being so low, is the best recovery rotation HR + RT, CH x 2? or HR + RT, spot heal with HW?
It seems as though HW would be best given the mana regen off crit and EL proc rate (only 21% for CL, 100% for HW on targets below 35%), but I'm not seeing it in the logs.




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