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Unholy DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, The Missing Frame


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#41 optional22

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:22 AM

How are you seeing a hidden 11th tick on DnD? I tested it on dummies several times, and I only see 10. Was this a relic of Beta or 4.0? With 10 ticks, SS is better than DnD.

#42 Consider

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:53 AM

Looking at what data I have, I last tested it personally (and received confirmation from others) December 3rd; meaning it was post 4.0.3. Nothing has changed since then, unless there was a stealth fix... which a quick run to the dummies in Ebon Hold mere minutes ago rules out:

12/22 04:51:37.600  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,43265,"Death and Decay",0x20
12/22 04:51:37.600  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,43265,"Death and Decay",0x20,DEBUFF
12/22 04:51:37.963  SPELL_MISSED,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,MISS
12/22 04:51:39.150  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:39.979  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:40.830  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:42.229  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:42.763  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:44.073  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:45.146  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:45.942  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:46.913  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,853,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/22 04:51:47.445  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,43265,"Death and Decay",0x20,DEBUFF
12/22 04:51:47.445  SPELL_MISSED,0x0180000003C97C8D,"Consider",0x511,0xF1307F230000171F,"Highlord's Nemesis Trainer",0xa28,52212,"Death and Decay",0x20,MISS

Still happening! It's possible there's some random factor unintentionally granting the 11th tick, but if so, I certainly can't narrow it down. Whenever I specifically test it, I get 11 (or 16 glyphed). Who knows. I would be quite interested in any logs to the contrary.

#43 Moonpie

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 05:32 PM

I'll touch it up, but the profession is nowhere near what it was in Wrath, and below most of its competitors.

Although I briefly touch upon it, I see no reason to go in-depth on the helmet; it's a perk, to be sure, but it doesn't scale, and thus will lose its usefulness quickly. All of the 372 dps helmets are superior to it, and it's only slightly superior than the 359 tier helmets, which (as Unholy, anyways), you're still better off using for set-bonus purposes. For raiders, it holds minimal value beyond the initial couple raid resets of the expansion.

As to the Bolt Gun, it's quite iffy. It triggers the GCD and has a 0.5 second cast time.; both of which hugely lessen its value. If it resets the weapon swing timer (which, based on the GCD/cast time, I would assume it does, but haven't heard confirmation either which way), then it's likely even worse than Saronite Bombs. It's better than nothing, sure, but not by much.

Tazik and Hyperspeed are both just absurdly weak. Tazik comes out slightly ahead, but you're talking 40 dps instead of 30.

By comparison, the 80 strength of other professions is approximately 240 dps. The Bolt Gun, even if you have the GCD to spare, even if it doesn't affect the weapon swing timer, and even if it always hits for its maximum damage, doesn't cover the 200 dps gap the profession has left after you factor in the glove tinker.


A major issue you've ignored is that of Engineering specific gems - Cogwheels and Hydraulics unless I'm mistaken - which provide around 200 of a rating (cannot be the same rating twice, nor a primary stat like Strength) so for minmaxing sake, lets sake one Hit cogwheel and one Haste hydraulic. A i359 head with 2x 200 bonus stats vs. a i359 head with one strength gem is a clear profession boost in Engineerings favour (if only in this tier of raiding). Please include this, along with the glove enchant, as part of engineerings value.

#44 kc102

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:23 PM

Has anyone picked up Anti-Magic Zone? I pulled a point out of Imp BT to grab it since I was doing Bastion. I really can't eyeball it and say it helped for sure, but there's quite a lot of magic damage and healers not having to heal 80k worth of damage seems worthwhile.

#45 Consider

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:04 PM

A major issue you've ignored is that of Engineering specific gems - Cogwheels and Hydraulics unless I'm mistaken - which provide around 200 of a rating (cannot be the same rating twice, nor a primary stat like Strength) so for minmaxing sake, lets sake one Hit cogwheel and one Haste hydraulic. A i359 head with 2x 200 bonus stats vs. a i359 head with one strength gem is a clear profession boost in Engineerings favour (if only in this tier of raiding). Please include this, along with the glove enchant, as part of engineerings value.

All they do is let you pick your secondary stats; it doesn't actually give you more stats total. It's simply a means of customization, nothing more.

The 359 tier helmet is still superior to the Engineering helmet. Yes, only because of the set bonus, but superior is superior. The engineering helmets have no place in this tier of raiding.

#46 Sulika

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:49 PM

Since Blizzard are dragging their feet over reverting the meta gem requirements on the Chaotic meta would we be better off using a different meta in the meantime? I am guessing Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond is the best since they all provide 54 crit and something else useless and this one requires only red gems to activate.

#47 kelben

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:49 PM

I actually ended up speccing AMZ for a nights worth of attempts on Nefarion to help with the Lightning Machine Blasts, we were testing the 75% magic dmg reduction. However, it really didn't seem worth it mainly because its a group only buff and it is almost pointless phase 1 and 2 as the random dmg instantly kills it. They really need to change it so its like power word barrier.
Haste is the devil...

#48 Lamperouqe

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:46 AM

The BiS lists on the OP suggest that Curshing Weight would be superior and BiS compared to Heart of Rage, but I did some simple math using what is written on the trinkets section and the OP stat values;

Crushing Weight: 321x3.08 + 1/5x1926x0.76 = 1281,432
Heart of Rage: 193x0.66 + 128x0.76 + 1/5x1926x3.08 = 1411,076

Heart of Rage has 128 expertise reforged into haste. Am I doing something wrong or is this indeed the case?

Oh, and the OP has placed heroic Crushing Weight on the pre-hardmode BiS list by mistake.

#49 Consider

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:58 AM

Corrected. Probably need to go doublecheck the Frost trinkets, too, which I'll do in a bit.

It was initially assumed/believed that level 85 proc trinkets had ICDs equal to 1/6th, not the 1/5th we now know they all are, which means you want the superior stat (strength, of course) to be the proc, not the passive, if you can help it... especially since you can reforge a secondary stat if it's the passive, not the proc. Thus, Heart of Rage takes the lead.

That said, just because the ICD is 5x the proc's duration, that does *not* make the uptime 1/5th. It won't go off the second the cooldown is up; both trinkets in question, for example, have a mere 10% chance to proc, which means it will take a solid 5-10 seconds for it to actually happen. This also helps boost trinkets such as HoR; because they both have the same chance to proc (and thus take the same amount of time to proc after coming off cooldown), you'll end up with a higher uptime for whichever one has a higher duration + cooldown if the duration/cooldown is identical (in theory, anyways; in reality, it only makes a difference if it lets you get an actual proc off during the course of the encounter). Of course, the fact that HoR's proc is strength while CW's is haste negates this advantage and actually lessens the gap, but if they were the same stat, it would do the opposite.

I still need to thing of a new way to tackle the trinket section. Something I'm tossing around in my head.

#50 Consider

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:23 AM

(This was in reference to a deleted post concerning )

From what reports I've heard, the trinket is currently horrible. It apparently has a 10s ICD on gaining a charge; and considering charges only have a 15s duration to begin with, that gives you a very small window in which to stack it up, making it incredibly unlikely you'll actually reach 5 charges as 2H, and only somewhat higher odds as DW.

As such, it's just plain bad. Even if the stacking mechanic didn't exist and you could simply activate the use effect whenever it was off cooldown, it would still be worse than, say, Heart of Rage. It would at least be somewhat decent... with the stacking buff being as it is, those blues are both easily superior.

#51 Complicated

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:35 AM

The BiS lists on the OP suggest that Curshing Weight would be superior and BiS compared to Heart of Rage, but I did some simple math using what is written on the trinkets section and the OP stat values;

Crushing Weight: 321x3.08 + 1/5x1926x0.76 = 1281,432
Heart of Rage: 193x0.66 + 128x0.76 + 1/5x1926x3.08 = 1411,076

Heart of Rage has 128 expertise reforged into haste. Am I doing something wrong or is this indeed the case?

Oh, and the OP has placed heroic Crushing Weight on the pre-hardmode BiS list by mistake.


I believe Consider already posted most Cata trinkets have a 16.6667 uptime (1/6).

Making it 193*0.66 + 128*0.76 + 1/6*1926*3.08 = 949,133

And putting Crushing Weight on top.


Edit: Nevermind the above, seems uptime is 1/5 afterall

#52 Hinenuitepo

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:06 PM

From what reports I've heard, the trinket is currently horrible. It apparently has a 10s ICD on gaining a charge; and considering charges only have a 15s duration to begin with, that gives you a very small window in which to stack it up, making it incredibly unlikely you'll actually reach 5 charges as 2H, and only somewhat higher odds as DW.

As such, it's just plain bad. Even if the stacking mechanic didn't exist and you could simply activate the use effect whenever it was off cooldown, it would still be worse than, say, Heart of Rage. It would at least be somewhat decent... with the stacking buff being as it is, those blues are both easily superior.



Unfortunately, with several trinkets at this time, and epic budget + this type of proc does not equal a valuable trinket. I haven't been able to test Rage of Ages, but I was able to obtain the Fury of Angerforge, with a similar type of proc (need 5 stacks to use the str buff, timer on stacks usually falls off before getting to 5).

From this experience, I'd confirm that until it's easier to obtain stacks and/or stacks don't drop off, Rage of Ages and similar trinkets have dubious value over even ilevel 346 blue on-use trinkets.

Sorry, meant Heart of Rage instead of the neck.

#53 chronomagus

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 08:08 PM

I did not see this discussed, so I wanted to bring it up. I am a 2H unholy DK. Based on stat weights, I am seeing that pvp and tanking epics are > heroic items properly itemized.

I took and put it up against after crunching the numbers based on statweights, the pvp gloves came out ahead 61.48 dps (not to mention the slight increase if u ever had to snare during a pve fight)

I then took and put it against (reforging parry to hit) and taking into account a loss of 10str and 20hit from gems/bonuses, the Daybreaker helm still rocked the other helm by 108.6dps

Because of how strong strength is, are these numbers correct? or am I totally missing something?

#54 mcfancher

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 12:18 AM

My question is towards Reforging. I remember when I first looked at your Unholy thread for Cata and there was a simple little guide on how to reforge. Like if you were hit capped, reforge your hit to haste and if it already had haste, put it to crit. What happened to that little process? Was it not a very good means to reforge? I'm just trying to find the best way to reforge stuff at this moment. I'm at 8.09% hit so I've basically reforged to Hit, Haste, Crit, Expertise, but should we only take from Hit and Mastery into those stats or should we take for example Crit into Haste if we don't have Haste capped yet? This is how I reforged the other night and went into a heroic and saw a pretty good increase in my overall dps, but still trying to figure out if taking away from one stat is worth it, considering you'll have to bring it back up again, e.g. Crit into Haste, Haste caps, now work on Crit

#55 kc102

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:31 AM

No Chrono, you're correct. Str is just way beyond our other stats making previous unwanted PvE items, like PvP and Tanking items, desirable. I currently have three PvP items in my PvE set as they were ~40 str more then the items I had there before. I don't like it too much, but it makes gear switching between PvP and PvE less troublesome.

#56 Jonneh

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 11:57 AM

The value of the proc is hard to find out.

Would I be right in assuming that it is probably below both and ?

I have the former already, and the latter is mine as soon as it drops again (passed on it last reset cause I, like many others, assumed it was a 90sec ICD :rolleyes: )

But I also have the deck ready for next week. Thinking I should probably sell it now.

#57 Mr. Havoc

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:40 PM

Curious, are slow one handed weapons optimal for dual wield unholy? is weapon speed taken into consideration or is it not considered and just the stats themselves are important?. would the change slow weapons would make effecting the damage output of Scourge strike (hitting harder), more RotFC procs, but less count of auto attacks on the boss do better, or maybe these are insignificant?

possibly they weren't taken into consideration seeing as though 2.8 speed weapons were only available from heroics. question really boils down to is the slower the weapon more potential damage output? faster weapons? or just their inherent stats?

If it is in fact the case is having 2.8 speed weapon and glyphing scourge strike glyph optimal? I'm still using heroic weapons the ones listed under pre-raid, and saw that they differed from the frost BiS being that 2.8 speed was optimal.

#58 Glimpse

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:49 PM

Specific Stat Weights
Preliminary stat weights are as follows:

[iLvl 359 - Normal Raids]
[table="head"]Stat | 2H | DW
Strength | 3.08 | 3.20
Hit | 0.76 | 1.64
Haste | 0.76 | 0.78
Crit | 0.62 | 0.62
Expertise | 0.66 | 0.58
Mastery | 0.24 | 0.24
Attack Power | 0.72 | 0.75


[iLvl 372 - Hardmode Raids]
[table="head"]Stat | 2H | DW
Strength | 3.14 | 3.29
Hit | 1.00 | 1.78
Haste | 0.82 | 0.86
Crit | 0.68 | 0.70
Expertise | 0.67 | 0.66
Mastery | 0.26 | 0.26
Attack Power | 0.73 | 0.75


How does raw weapon DPS weigh in?

On Tuesday the epic gladiator weapons will be available to just about everyone and while upgrading from a blue may be a no-brainer I'd be interested to see how wide the margin is considering the budget that is spent on resilience.

#59 Consider

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:26 PM

Weapon dps was something in the neighborhood of 6 dps for 2H.

The value of the proc is hard to find out.

Would I be right in assuming that it is probably below both and ?

I have the former already, and the latter is mine as soon as it drops again (passed on it last reset cause I, like many others, assumed it was a 90sec ICD :rolleyes: )

But I also have the deck ready for next week. Thinking I should probably sell it now.

Based on testing data from both Rogues and Warriors, they seem to net about 4PPM from the trinket, making it worth ~400 dps (the proc is effected by CoE/EP/EM, does crit, and so forth), which would place it solidly above all other 359 trinkets (aside from License to Slay). That said, assuming one isn't dual wielding, we won't get as many procs (although we do have the GCD advantage on Warriors)... but even if we only average 2.5 procs a minute, it's still superior to Heart of Rage et al.

So, yeah, it looks to be very, very good, and almost certainly better than almost all other 359 options (although, even at 4ppm, worse than the 372 ones). That said, it's entirely possible the warrior/rogue testing was somehow flawed or we end up with severely less procs. I don't wish to cost you thousands of gold by saying to keep it, but that would appear to be the smart move.

And, of course, if you do, provide testing!

#60 arison

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 11:41 PM

I raided a couple of weeks with DMC:Hurricane, but switched to Heart of Rage + Heart of Solace. It typically would be around 200-300 dps in my parses (many fights have downtime, though, of course). To be better than Heart of Rage, though, the proc dps needs to be higher than at least what I saw.

HoR = 1926 * 0.2 * 3.08 + 193 * 0.66 + 128 * 0.76 = 1411
DMC:H = 321 * 3.08 + X = 989 + X

To be even, it has to be 422 DPS; this is higher than I've seen in any in-raid parses. There is pretty high variation because of the low proc rate, but I'm not convinced it is even 400 from my own testing. simcraft thinks it is 1ppm (but seems broken with ppm procs; I'm looking into that separately).

Even Heart of Solace comes out pretty well:
HoS = 1710 * 0.2 * 3.08 + 285 * 0.76 = 1270

Meaning to even beat heroic HoS, it needs to 281dps which is ballpark what I tended to see in raids. It has no internal cooldown but with a relatively low proc rate, there can be a lot of variation in its damage contribution. It also offers no AOE or multi-target contribution, but strength procs may or may not either depending on timing.

I'm not sure it's such a slam dunk, at least from my experience.
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