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Frost DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, This Is My Life


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#21 Theodos

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:19 PM

The presence of three or more mobs makes AoE optimal.

But the vast majority of the time on trash you won't be AoEing, because in heroics all but one or two mobs will be CC'd, and there are a VERY small number of bosses that require AoE in Cata.


Considering this a forum geared towards endgame theorycrafting, I think the question about AoEing makes more sense if you put it in the raid setting. Unlike heroics, the first four easiest raid bosses (Omnitron, Magmaw, Maloriak, and Conclave) all require significant AoE. In most of these cases, you will have more than 3 mobs and need to execute your AoE rotation there.

Magmaw, you will likely be aggroing the adds with DnD and Howling Blast in Blood Presence.
Omnitron, you will likely be using HB and DnD on Toxitron's adds.
Maloriak, you will be using heavy AoE on adds in green phase.
Conclave, you will likely be DnD/HB on adds for Anhash.

Setting up your AoE rotation is just as important as executing it. Have all your death runes converted and up if possible. If you do still have a blood rune up still, DnD> Outbreak (on targeted add) + Pest > HB spam is most likely optimal for adds that have alot of HP (Maloriak, Magmaw). If you have an on-use STR or Mastery trinket, be sure to use it here, as well as keeping up ERW --- unless you are planning on saving it for burn phases or can use it twice throughout the fight.

#22 Flin

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:24 PM

'VERY small number of bosses' is meant to include both raids and heroics. From the heroic standpoint, virtually none, and from the raid standpoint:
BWD:
Magmaw
Omnitron
Maloriak

BoT:
Wyrmbreaker
(unknown on Sinestra)

TotFW:
Conclave

5/12 isn't all that significant. I'm not questioning the usefulness of AoE. I'm just saying that knowing what you're doing on single target is more important. Also, the original question was questioning when it is appropriate to AoE, to which I was (correctly) replying that it is almost never really used, whether inside or outside a raid.

#23 zagor

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:44 AM

When 41,66% raid bosses require aoe, I wouldn't say it's not all that significant. We want do be delivering max dps possible.

In a week or two heroics will be old news and putting heroics and raids in same bucket should be avoided.

#24 Nev

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:35 PM

I am aware how basic this question is, but having played a mage for all six years of my WoW experience I am slightly confused about what the hit/expertise caps are. You say these stats are second only to strength in added dps "until cap." For expertise, is the cap 0% chance to dodge, or 0% chance to parry?(Yes, I know bosses cannot parry when attacked from behind; from this, I would guess that it is only to 0% dodge) And for hit, is the cap 0% on specials or on white hits? (Yes, I realize it is basically impossible to be fully hit-capped on white attacks, but I wonder if I should still be stacking hit after I am capped for specials).
Additionally, I noticed a couple of discrepancies in your guide. In your rotation section, you say

If Rime is up, then you obviously want to use it. There's no need to worry about KM: Rime neither benefits from nor consumes the buff any longer. You never want to Obliterate back to back without having used a Rime procced by the first – and if you’re following this priority, that won’t occur anyways, so not a worry.

However, this is simply not true. If you have both rime and killing machine procced, according to your priority you would obliterate (as long as diseases are still up) regardless of the fact that this essentially wastes a rime proc. Is this intended? I have mentally moved rime up to the front of the list in terms of priority, but I haven't seen a significant dps change (outside the std dev, I mean). Which is the correct priority?

And, as Charybdis recently posted,

Make sure you're not Frost Striking when you don't actually have all six rune on cooldown, as if you only have three, they'll be recharging, and thus RE takes a hit.

is also slightly misleading. Only one type of rune needs to be completely on cooldown in order for FSing to be useful; RE procs always pick the least-regenerated rune, so if both frost runes are on CD it will regen the completely-empty frost rune and you will not lose any regen time.

Finally, I had a question about priority. It often happens that both my blood runes (and blood tap) are on cd, and I have just enough runes to obliterate. I cast ob, it procs KM, but I would have a 2-3 second wait till I can cast obliterate again. I tend to frost strike in this situation, because I have an aversion to doing nothing. Is this a bad idea? I realize it doesn't utilize the proc as effectively because of its lower damage but it seems wrong to be waiting for runes to come up when I have fairly high RP.

#25 LKratos

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 07:53 AM

Additionally, I noticed a couple of discrepancies in your guide. In your rotation section, you say
However, this is simply not true. If you have both rime and killing machine procced, according to your priority you would obliterate (as long as diseases are still up) regardless of the fact that this essentially wastes a rime proc. Is this intended? I have mentally moved rime up to the front of the list in terms of priority, but I haven't seen a significant dps change (outside the std dev, I mean). Which is the correct priority?


If you obliterate and rime procs, look at blood runes. If both blood runes are up, blood strike. If KM has procced again, use up the rime before you OB again. As long as your first OB runes are on CD, you aren't wasting anything by using the rime first.

#26 Nev

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 05:10 PM

If you obliterate and rime procs, look at blood runes. If both blood runes are up, blood strike. If KM has procced again, use up the rime before you OB again. As long as your first OB runes are on CD, you aren't wasting anything by using the rime first.

That is essentially what I have been doing, but I was just pointing out that the current priority in the post does _not_ say that. If that is what is intended, perhaps the priority should be updated with a clause after the diseases that says something like "If both KM and Rime are procced, Rime."

#27 SwiftFox

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 10:57 PM

Runeforges

Dual wielding will use Rune of Razorice on their main hand, with Rune of the Fallen Crusader on their offhand, as they always have. 2H will simply use Rune of the Fallen Crusader.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was just wondering about this back in the 3.3.3 dps thread it was MH-Rune of fallen crusader and OH-Razorice but since the cataclysm threads its been reversed and says its always been this way. I was wondering is the most recent MH/OH correct or the older threads correct?

#28 Kaejin

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 11:45 PM

Razor MH has always been correct, the 3.x thread was just never updated to reflect that after it was discovered.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#29 jameasson

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:39 AM

Wouldn't heroic crushing weight be better than license to slay for DW frost? I know that haste isn't the best stat for DW frost, but 2178 haste for 15 seconds combined with the 363 strength makes it 2nd BIS for DW frost.

#30 Tyhma

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:40 AM

Hi everyone,

I noticed that i was reaching my expertise cap with only 790 expertise rating. Is this something that anyone else noticed?

It could come from the fact that i'm playing a gnome character, but i'm wearing a sword in my OH, and i'm seeing 29 expertise for this hand, while 26 with my MH (using a mace).

#31 phete

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:58 AM

Hi everyone,

I noticed that i was reaching my expertise cap with only 790 expertise rating. Is this something that anyone else noticed?

It could come from the fact that i'm playing a gnome character, but i'm wearing a sword in my OH, and i'm seeing 29 expertise for this hand, while 26 with my MH (using a mace).


By looking at this thread one can see that at 85 the exp rating needed per 1exp is 30.0272, which means the soft cap is 780.7072 rating or roughly 781 rating

#32 Tyhma

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:48 AM

By looking at this thread one can see that at 85 the exp rating needed per 1exp is 30.0272, which means the soft cap is 780.7072 rating or roughly 781 rating


This confirm that the value of 885 rating indicate in the thread we're talking in is actually wrong, witch was disturbing me.

Thanx for the info, and for the link.

#33 phete

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:56 AM

This confirm that the value of 885 rating indicate in the thread we're talking in is actually wrong, witch was disturbing me.

Thanx for the info, and for the link.


Np, at the bottom of the OP it now says 781 atleast :)

#34 damokt

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:23 AM

Is Mind Freeze still at spell hit cap? Or is it on melee hit cap but the 3% extra hit from DW Frost don't apply? Because I noticed that it misses sometimes.

My Guild downed/progressed so far on 7 Bosses in the new raiding content in 10-man and I noticed that interrupting is very important on some of the fights. In one Halfus Wyrmbreaker attempt I was assigned to interrupt his Shadow Nova. My Mind Freeze missed 3 times in this fight, which led to a wipe due to healers not keeping up. We then assigned a warrior to do the interrupting and downed him shortly after.

#35 Griefpb

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:49 AM

Is Mind Freeze still at spell hit cap? Or is it on melee hit cap but the 3% extra hit from DW Frost don't apply? Because I noticed that it misses sometimes.

My Guild downed/progressed so far on 7 Bosses in the new raiding content in 10-man and I noticed that interrupting is very important on some of the fights. In one Halfus Wyrmbreaker attempt I was assigned to interrupt his Shadow Nova. My Mind Freeze missed 3 times in this fight, which led to a wipe due to healers not keeping up. We then assigned a warrior to do the interrupting and downed him shortly after.


Yes, Mind Freeze is still on spell hit. Respeccing into Virulence and Endless Winter is basically a necessity on that fight.

Gear depending, you might also have to do some reforging, or eat some hit food.

#36 JMBattista

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:42 PM

That is essentially what I have been doing, but I was just pointing out that the current priority in the post does _not_ say that. If that is what is intended, perhaps the priority should be updated with a clause after the diseases that says something like "If both KM and Rime are procced, Rime."


I could be wrong but I suspect at least part of this is that Consider doen't want a 'priority' list that is a post in itself with lots of conditionals.

I could easily see this turning into:

FS (if mob can be 1 shot) > OB (if mob can be one shot and no rp) > Diseases (if you can safely apply dots) > Ob (if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up) > HB-Rime (if both Rime and KM are procced and you can aoe if you aren't gcd capping) > IT-Rime (if both Rime and KM are procced and you can't aoe if you aren't gcd capping) > OB (if KM is procc'd) >
BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > HB-Rime (if you can aoe safely) > IT-Rime (if you can't aoe safely) > Ob > BS > FS > HoW.

Or some other equally ridiculous priority system with 16-20 entries based on highly conditional things that should, at some point, just make sense. The whole comment about Rime being above KM oblit if both are proc'd, ect only holds true when you have the GCDs to cast both spells. If you don't its just like back in wrath... you skip it, since the KM-Oblit performs better when GCD capp'd.

Its just like how he pulled the BiS lists for pre-raid gear, there are far too many 'ifs' to please everyone and each persons opinion on what should and shouldn't be included will be different, just KISS and be sensible when playing.

#37 Theodos

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:52 PM

Everyone so far has contested the priorities given by Consider by saying you should be using Rime procs in lieu of KM Oblits. If that was the case, it would have been stated in the OP. He mentions that you should never Oblit back-to-back with a Rime proc, but this very situational.

The fact of the matter remains that, at current gear levels, KM Oblit does much, much more damage than any other abilities that can be used in the same GCD. Moreover, with lower levels of mastery, the impact of using a Rime HB is much lower.

There is also a key issue here where wasting a potential Rime proc is still less important than keeping your runes refreshing through using rune-based abilities. With higher Blood Tap uptime granted with talents, the value of Obliterate increases in your rotation. Sitting on death runes during Blood Tap is a potentially large DPS loss as it could prevent you from squeezing in an extra Obliterate during the window BT is up.

I think in the case of KM Oblit vs. Rime, it's entirely situational. If your diseases are about to fall off and Outbreak is down, Rime makes more sense. If you are nearing max RP, KM Oblit followed by FS > HB would be better since it moves your runes along without wasting significant RP. If diseases are at full duration with low RP and only UF runes up, Rime > KM Oblit. There is an endless bevy of situations you could create here.

If I were to create a generalized rotation for DW Frost, you would try to prioritize rune abilities (maximizing death rune uptime) while not capping RP and allowing Rime to bridge any gaps in disease uptime and open GCDs.

#38 Invaishir

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:12 AM

From testing with Kahorie's, I believe it should be noted to use Razorice as 2h before you have 4piece t11 because it is performing better in-game and on the sim than Fallen Crusader without 4piece by about 5%

#39 Consider

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:34 AM

No matter what gear set-up I use and no matter how much tweaking I do, I can't get the sim to show RI as superior, and without any proof on your part, there's no reason for anyone to trust your word, especially when simple napkin math and common sense shows that it's extremely unlikely RI wins:

About 55% of 2H Frost's damage is, well, Frost. Thus RI, at most, gives 5.5% dps (less, in reality, due to the stacking component of it in combination with target switching and what have you). The minor auto-attack damage boost is less than 0.5%, and hardly worth mentioning, but giving the rune as a whole the benefit of the doubt, let's just say it rounds it up to a 6% dps boost.

RotFC's uptime will vary but, for simplicity's sake, let's say it's 66%, meaning it gives approximately 10% strength. In a mix of 346 blues and 359 epics, you're going to have about 4.5k strength unbuffed. Horn of Winter, Mark, food, and flask will bring this up to about 5700. This means RotFC is giving you approximately 570 strength which, at about 2.3 dps per point, equals out to 1311 dps.

Thus, unless you're doing !22k unbuffed single-target dps in that so-so gear, FC wins out pretty clearly and the fact of the matter is that you're not going to be doing even close to that much on a single target as 2H frost at that gear level.

Besides, RI is only just barely above a 5% dps boost in itself... for it to be beating RotFC would mean the latter would have to be completely worthless! Even if RI were coming out ahead of FC, it definitely wouldn't be doing so by that large a margin.

Perhaps in greens or some such nonsense RI is superior, but this isn't the place to discuss such matters, and it's pointless to try to theorycraft at such low and meaningless gear levels.

#40 Invaishir

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:29 AM

I reset all the data and used the "No restrictions" gear set for 2h for these little tests. To not have 4piece i replaced t11.5 legs with . I used the 2h spec in the OP, and i was trying to figure out the best priority while i was cutting gems.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Priority>
<FrostStrikeMaxRp></FrostStrikeMaxRp>
<KMObliterate></KMObliterate>
<KMFrostStrike></KMFrostStrike>
<Rime></Rime>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<Obliterate></Obliterate>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
<HowlingBlast></HowlingBlast>
<EmpowerRuneWeapon></EmpowerRuneWeapon>
<Horn></Horn>
</Priority>


^ that's what I used, but i used the default frost priority and results were the same. Gonna talk to Afabar and see if he can take a look at FC and RI and see if we can figure it out.




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