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Frost DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, This Is My Life


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#41 NEloi

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:57 AM

^ that's what I used, but i used the default frost priority and results were the same. Gonna talk to Afabar and see if he can take a look at FC and RI and see if we can figure it out.


If I was to point my finger at something I would say the sim is bugged, either FC is not being applied at all or our melee strikes aren't getting the benefit of it.

When you change from FC to RI, the only damage that changes is frost damage and that shouldn't be the case, all our strikes/diseases should change, because RI only benefits our frost strikes while FC is good for every thing.

#42 Guest_Afabar_*

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:33 AM

From testing with Kahorie's, I believe it should be noted to use Razorice as 2h before you have 4piece t11 because it is performing better in-game and on the sim than Fallen Crusader without 4piece by about 5%


It's a sim bug. I just have checked, and Fallen crusader buff only affect ghoul strength. Don't ask me why, I don't have yet investigate.
edit:
I have found the issue and uploaded the correction. The issue was that the sim didn't update the AP value of the character only on pure AP proc and not on Strength proc. This was a recent issue since I did made a change in that part of the code few days ago when I did include the 4 piece T11 proc.

#43 Lindwurm

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 02:16 PM

Regarding Spellhit: I used the sim to check what should be possible with my current gearsetup and noticed a very high EP value of 0.9 for spellhit, wich is even higher than hit to melee cap. I redid the sim with Considers BIS list for dw-Frost and noticed the same high value for spellhit. Is this some kind of bug with the simulator? Seems like shifting points between imp. Bloodtap and Virulence doesn't seem to change anything, as dps and EP-Values stay exactly the same. Yet skipping some hit to crit reforging does result in higher dps.

#44 Tphirey

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:56 PM

Night Elf
Hands down the worst Alliance race for PvE dps , for Frost DKs or any other class/spec! All Night Elves have going for them is a temporary aggro dump on a two minute cooldown. Even if we had threat issues, which we don’t, this would still be quite horrendous, considering all the threat is returned to us the second you break Shadowmeld. There’s no passive which provides any sort of dps in any sort of scenario. If you’re truly looking to min-max, this is the last race you want as a dps.


I've bolded the section I'm interested in (since as an orc I don't have shadowmeld). Previous to 4.0.1 the Blood talent to reduce threat made threat problems non-existent as dps. However, since then I've been experiencing huge issues with threat, first in normal dungeons and now in heroics (where it can mean death). Is the bolded section above out of date or is there something else I'm missing that still makes threat problems non-existent? If it is out of date (I noticed the unholy thread has the exact same text which doesn't seem to have changed since 3.3), what are other DKs doing to combat the threat issues in heroics, especially in aoe situations where even a single howling blast can pull aggro?

#45 Consider

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:15 PM

It's not outdated, it's simply talking specifically in raids (which, unless specifically noted otherwise, applies to the whole thread; although I understand heroics are, of course, where people are likely spending the majority of their PvE time in at the moment, it's temporary, they're not terribly challenging to begin with, and it's impossible to min-max in them due to all the additional variables - group composition being a huge one. Raids are ultimately what matter, even for the more casual out there). If you're having threat issues in raids, something is up with your tank (or you're accidentally in Blood Presence!). In heroics, however, with Howling Blast being what it is, pulling aggro is a definite possibility (if not a certain reality).

As to how to deal with it, there's not really any tools you have aside from Hungering Cold (which, glyphed, is pretty solid in such situations) or CoI (which is going to kill your dps, but better than killing you). Otherwise, just up to the tank.

#46 Tphirey

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:31 PM

Thanks. I guess I'm just missing the the blood talent to reduce threat more than I expected. I'm just working on gearing up my alt DK to raid 10 mans with friends and am regularly pulling off our tank which had me concerned.

#47 Wayward

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:06 AM

I seem to be experiencing a strange issue while in frost spec which became very noticeable last night on Magmaw:

My rune cooldowns seemed to be going over 10" for each rune (like it seems to be happening when several mobs apply some haste debuff) and at irregular intervals they seemed to "jump" several seconds to a lower cooldown. The same thing stayed with me on trash and on Omnitron at which point I switched to UH and things went back to normal.

At first I thought it was maybe a graphical glitch with my rune addon (even though I could clearly feel the extremely long rune cooldowns) so I tried 3 different addons and even completely disabled them, I relogged, left the instance and went back in and nothing seemed to work. As long as I stayed in UH spec runes were normally affected by haste as expected.

I have seen a few reports of people experiencing this but no clear answer.

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas with this.

#48 sixaxis

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 12:28 PM

Hey,

I've searched through the forums but couldn't find an answer to something i've been wondering about.

For dw frost dps first post suggests to put some points in blood tap. What makes this superior to putting points in scarlet fever? Obviously the damage reduction is meant for tanking but SF applies a 3rd disease that should be beneficial to some of our attacks like Obliterate. Speccing into BT only gives you a rune benefit once every 30 seconds.

Could someone enlighten me on what i'm missing here?

edit: tnx for the answer. didn't realise it wasn't a disease.

#49 Zibi

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 02:26 PM

Hey,

I've searched through the forums but couldn't find an answer to something i've been wondering about.

For dw frost dps first post suggests to put some points in blood tap. What makes this superior to putting points in scarlet fever? Obviously the damage reduction is meant for tanking but SF applies a 3rd disease that should be beneficial to some of our attacks like Obliterate. Speccing into BT only gives you a rune benefit once every 30 seconds.

Could someone enlighten me on what i'm missing here?


The simple fact of this is that Scarlet Fever is not a disease, therefore not in any way a beneficial talent for frost DPS.

#50 Cabal

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 05:50 PM

Assuming an average iLvl of 359 (normal t11), the order goes something like: 2H Unholy > DW Frost = DW Unholy > 2H Frost, with 2H Unholy being ~1.5% ahead


Im going to dispute this, there is ample evidence (WoL, as well as many players experience) that there is a good 3k dps difference between UH and DW frost. And thats in mostly "tank and spank fights", that gap only grows the more movement there is in a fight, as UH has a pet that sticks to target and keeps hitting it while players have to move around. I dont know if there is a problem with the sim, or something wrong/too strong with UH (especially the pet), but the fact remains that the gap is much more than the claimed 1.5% (more like 15%), and this creates problems, as raid leaders/officers frequent these forums and usually will only skimm stuff like that, and then hold players to such figures.

#51 LKratos

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:25 PM

Im going to dispute this, there is ample evidence (WoL, as well as many players experience) that there is a good 3k dps difference between UH and DW frost. And thats in mostly "tank and spank fights", that gap only grows the more movement there is in a fight, as UH has a pet that sticks to target and keeps hitting it while players have to move around. I dont know if there is a problem with the sim, or something wrong/too strong with UH (especially the pet), but the fact remains that the gap is much more than the claimed 1.5% (more like 15%), and this creates problems, as raid leaders/officers frequent these forums and usually will only skimm stuff like that, and then hold players to such figures.


Perhaps then link the WoL. If it is the same fight (and is a tank and spank), the DK's are similarly geared, and the difference is that great, and stats are itemized properly, then I'm sure he'll take a look at it. But there are so many variables that personal experience rarely matters, when the comparisons made in the OP are generally with sims.

Just the fact alone that unholy/frosts stat weights are completely different after str/hit to cap means that even with similar ilvl, dps differences are going to be more attuned to differences in stat priorities than in just the gear level itself

#52 Theodos

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 07:20 PM

Perhaps then link the WoL. If it is the same fight (and is a tank and spank), the DK's are similarly geared, and the difference is that great, and stats are itemized properly, then I'm sure he'll take a look at it. But there are so many variables that personal experience rarely matters, when the comparisons made in the OP are generally with sims.

Just the fact alone that unholy/frosts stat weights are completely different after str/hit to cap means that even with similar ilvl, dps differences are going to be more attuned to differences in stat priorities than in just the gear level itself


There really are no fights in the first raid tier where you can "objectively" compare the two specs on WoL. The only tank and spank encounter per se, would probably be Chimaeron, and in this fight there are several random variables that could explain any DPS disparity between the two specs. For instance, the splash mechanic which is partially negated by AMS provides significant RP for unholy while providing none to Frost. Several top unholy parses from WoL are showing up to 600 extra RP from AMS. That mechanic alone can explain the 1-2k DPS disparity reported between the two specs on this fight. Same with a fight such as Pit Lord Argaloth, where unholy can get max RP for extended durations of this fight.

If you want a fight like Patchwerk to compare the specs, there simply is none at this point in the expansion. As mentioned before, Unholy is affected far less by movement fights as their diseases, pets and ranged ability (death coil spam) simply provide more dps during mobile phases. Additionally, the presence of magic damage on every single fight thus far compounds their mobile DPS (AMS granting more death coils to spam in many transition phases).

With no real way to realistically compare the specs in current PvE content, the only answer is to use a sim unfortunately. In doing so, I would probably add a modified figure for RP gain to reflect magic damage that can be soaked by AMS (Unholy only). However, using anecdotal evidence and parses from WoL now are pretty useless as DPS varies wildly between the two specs depending on the fight.

#53 Consider

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:46 PM

If a raid leader/guild leader is bad enough to use that one line blurb from this thread as a standard by which they judge their Death Knights, then they're not competitively raiding anyways (or they're not intelligent enough to last attempting to do so). That's not the purpose of that line, and if anyone (DK or otherwise!) believes it to be so, you are quite mistaken. As far as judging one's performance, comparing parses is always the best way, and what most top raid leaders/guild leaders know to do (or, at least, should know to do).

With no real way to realistically compare the specs in current PvE content, the only answer is to use a sim unfortunately. In doing so, I would probably add a modified figure for RP gain to reflect magic damage that can be soaked by AMS (Unholy only). However, using anecdotal evidence and parses from WoL now are pretty useless as DPS varies wildly between the two specs depending on the fight.

I do mimic AMS soaking for Unholy.

At any rate, Theodos is right. The fact is, each fight changes. Some fights have AoE; other's don't. Some fights have 100% uptime on the boss; others don't. Some have +damage modifiers, some have target switching, some have silences... other's don't. No two fights are identical, and thus when comparing two specs you're going to have to make assumptions which simply won't apply to every fight. It's unavoidable, unfortunately. Short of going through each individual boss and saying how the specs perform relative to one another (which, actually, is quite doable, if people wish), when using one set of numbers, a "Patchwerk-esqe" set of assumptions is how it has to be.

Besides, it's much easier for someone playing Unholy to reach their theoretical max dps than it is for someone playing Frost to reach theirs, and that's largely because of RE.

As to parses, comparing some of the top ones for BWD shows...
Omnitron: Unholy is ahead by ~18%.
Magmaw: Frost is ahead by ~21% (ignoring the 42k dps Frost outlier!).
Chimaeron: Unholy is ahead by ~5%.
Atramedes: Unholy is ahead by ~14%.
Maloriak: Frost is ahead by ~4%.
Nefarian: Unholy is ahead by ~18%.

On two of the six fights, Frost is ahead, and on four of them, Unholy is ahead. The smallest gap between either of the two specs on any one fight is about 5%, while the largest is near 20%, and said gaps (both the minimum and the maximum) go each way for each spec.

The only conclusion I would draw from those parses themselves is that it all depends on the specific fight (as it always has and likely always will). On some fights, Frost will steamroll Unholy by a ridiculous margin... while, on others, Unholy will blow past Frost by a similar number. On some fights, Frost will barely eke out a win... while, on others, Unholy will just barely manage to do the same. All depends on the fight.

Sure, one could argue that the fact that Unholy wins more fights ultimately makes it the better spec, but that's silly reasoning. If you're simply looking to do the best you can on every single fight, you're going to be dual-speccing and constantly switching, as always. And if you're not quite that min-maxing, then you're most likely just going to concern yourself with which fights are troubling your guild the most, and spec appropriately, not which spec will make you look the best on the meters on fights you've been farming.

#54 LKratos

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 11:08 PM

As to parses, comparing some of the top ones for BWD shows...
Omnitron: Unholy is ahead by ~18%.
Magmaw: Frost is ahead by ~21% (ignoring the 42k dps Frost outlier!).
Chimaeron: Unholy is ahead by ~5%.
Atramedes: Unholy is ahead by ~14%.
Maloriak: Frost is ahead by ~4%.
Nefarian: Unholy is ahead by ~18%.


The closest thing to a "tank and spank" in these figures if Chimaeron, which is essentially continuous dps from everyone throughout the fight, no breaks or adds. And as shown, this is the fight that most closely reflects the sims, which show unholy as slightly above frost (<=5%).

The other fights either have downtime/target switching (Unholy wins comfortably) or adds that need to be AoE'd down at various points (frost wins).

Either way in terms of pure dps output, spec isn't particularly an issue, and can be left up to either personal preference or determined by raid comp (if there's an enhancement shaman or boomkin in the group already).

Glad to see these parses though, thanks for posting them.

#55 Fraz

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 06:26 AM

Chimaeron also randomly (and constantly during Feud) puts a large hit debuff on you which unholy cares a lot less about due to large amounts of pet damage.

The closest thing to a tank/spank is actually .. the tank and spank fight in Baradin Hold! where the top Unholy parses are 2-3k above the top Frost parses. Perhaps most top guilds don't bother to parse that place though, much like VoA.

#56 Consider

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 06:33 AM

A lot of top guilds simply don't bother parsing Baradin's Hold and/or simply do it in 10 mans in their spare time due to the ease/speed/availability of it. Just looking at the top parses for the fight, I recognize very few names aside from Lamperouqe's, and there's almost no DK from any top 20 guild. I'm not sure how safe of a comparison it is to look at parses of that encounter although, yes, it's definitely the most tank-and-spank of them all.

But, yeah, I'll likely change that section to state what the simulator shows (with the disclaimer of that being under perfect play, tank-and-spank, and so forth), and then also include a table showing the average dps for each spec based off the top X (10? 20? 100? However many would be considered sufficient) parses, per boss, updated weekly. Or something along those lines. I'll figure it out after the holiday passes. The idea isn't to show the top dps of each spec; anyone can look at the rankings to see that, but rather to exhibit how the two specs (and four playstyles) relate to one another. Any suggestions on the subject are most welcome, ideally in my inbox as opposed to this thread so as to avoid clutter.

#57 Tyhma

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 06:53 PM

Spells have a 16% chance to miss against boss level mobs. At 102 hit rating per 1% spell hit, it takes 1632 hit rating to become spell hit capped. For those specced into it, Virulence reduces the chance to 7%, meaning you need 714 rating to then be spell capped.


I'll win the right to feel ridiculous if ever i'm wrong, but isn't this a little mistake that you've made while updating your op, Consider?

I haven't seen anywhere else anything saying that the cap was 1% less, so i'm guessing this is the drainei looking point-of-vue.

#58 Nazek

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 08:36 PM

Sure, one could argue that the fact that Unholy wins more fights ultimately makes it the better spec, but that's silly reasoning. If you're simply looking to do the best you can on every single fight, you're going to be dual-speccing and constantly switching, as always. And if you're not quite that min-maxing, then you're most likely just going to concern yourself with which fights are troubling your guild the most, and spec appropriately, not which spec will make you look the best on the meters on fights you've been farming.


This is exactly what it's all about. If single target dmg is important you want to go unholy and if aoe/chillblains is important you want to go frost. Frost just annihilates the adds on magmaw/maloriak/cho'gall while unholy gets way more single target dmg boosted nicely by AMS soaking.

#59 LKratos

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:59 PM

This is exactly what it's all about. If single target dmg is important you want to go unholy and if aoe/chillblains is important you want to go frost. Frost just annihilates the adds on magmaw/maloriak/cho'gall while unholy gets way more single target dmg boosted nicely by AMS soaking.


What about a single target fight with no breaks, and no AMS abuse?

You STILL can't make such black and white categorizations on the specs until we actually see a fight where neither fight gets a specific spec based advantage.

#60 deandrez

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:54 AM

Consider, don't you think haste vs. crit values changed in frost due to DKs natural low crit rating and haste boosting the proc rate of KM? A few top parsers gear has been shifted towards 7-10% haste and reforging haste>crit. Will your EP values change, or is crit rating (even at such a low percentage at the moment) still better then haste?




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