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Shaman: Simple Questions / Simple Answers -- Cataclysm Edition


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#41 Stelmaria

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:06 PM

In theory there is a point where it makes sense to abort a LB for a LvB, but in any practical situation, the time window is just too small. Never abort a started cast (unless you have to move from fire ofc).

Math:
Deciding what spell is better is usually based on DPET (damage per execution time): dpet = total expected damage / cast time
If you abort an LB, the time you already spent casting it is wasted and has to be added to LvB's casttime to get its effective execution time.
LB damge: (lb_basedmg + spellpower * lb_coeff) * (1 + 1.09 * crit) * (1 + 0.75 * overload) + 0.6 * (ls_basedmg + spellpower * ls_coeff) * (1 + 1.09 * crit)
LB casttime: 2 / (1 + haste)
LB DPET: LB damage / LB casttime

LvB damage: (lvb_basedmg + spellpower * lvb_coeff) * 2.8316 * (1 + 0.75 * overload)
LvB casttime: 1.5 / (1 + haste)
LvB DPET: LvB damage / (LvB casttime + aborttime)

If aborting LB for LvB is an dps gain, then we need to meet the following criteria:
LvB DPET > LB DPET

Put in your stats, solve for aborttime and you have the time window in which aborting LB is a dps increase. It's usually to small a window to bother with it though.

#42 Mephology

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 05:45 PM

Why would you swap SS for FT when you could swap Feral Spirits for FT and gain even more dps?


I am wondering if I am using EnhSim incorrectly because this does not reflect what I see when I look at the dps on my marginally geared shaman in our typical 10man raid setup. Could it also be a reflection of the fact that I am in mostly heroics gear and using only 10man buffs? I have attached the EnhSim config that I was using.

[TABLE]Glyph1 | Glyph2 | Glyph3 | DPS
FT | SS | LL | 15667
FS | SS | LL | 15443
FT | FS | LL | 15606
[/TABLE]


### Saved by v2.3.0 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  2.3.0
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         350
max_lag                         450
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  100
ep_hit_rating                   -100
ep_expertise_rating             -100
ep_haste_rating                 100
ep_mastery_rating               100
ep_spellpower                   115
ep_dps                          57
ep_mana                         1200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          100
ep_intellect                    100
ep_agility                      100
ep_strength                     100

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
use_bloodlust                   0
always_bloodlust_wolves         0
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       2
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   1
cast_searing_only_if_ticks_left 1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       0
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    1000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       -
weapon_set_proc                 -

rotation_priority_count         9
rotation_priority1              ST
rotation_priority2              LL
rotation_priority3              FS_UEF
rotation_priority4              MW5_LB
rotation_priority5              UE
rotation_priority6              SS
rotation_priority7              ES
rotation_priority8              SW
rotation_priority9              SR

aoe_rotation_priority_count     0

fight_name                      standard_single_target
miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        24.00
armor                           11977
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.00
additional_target_level         85

armor_debuff                    12.0/12.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                10.0/10.0
crit_chance_buff                0/5.0
attack_power_buff_multiplier    10.0/10.0
spell_haste_buff                0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             0/8.0
spellpower_buff                 10.0/10.0
percentage_damage_increase      0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 5.0/5.0
agi_and_strength_buff           549/549
mana_buff                       0/2126
mana_regen_buff                 326/326

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mixology                        1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_the_winds
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          -
food                            skewered_eel

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            orc
mh_speed                        2.3
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          50
oh_dps                          462.3
mh_crit                         22.39
oh_crit                         22.39
mh_hit                          19.62
oh_hit                          19.62
mh_expertise_rating             387
oh_expertise_rating             387
ap                              7202
melee_haste                     3.08
str                             134
agi                             3082
int                             265
spi                             244
mastery_rating                  1388
spellpower                      5585
spell_crit                      12.59
spell_hit                       16.24
spell_haste                     3.08
max_mana                        25190
mp5                             1171

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      avalanche
oh_enchant                      avalanche

mh_weapon                       mace
oh_weapon                       fist

trinket1                        left_eye_of_rajh_heroic
trinket2                        tias_grace_heroic

set_bonus1                      -
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         chaotic_shadowspirit_diamond

glyph_prime1                    flametongue_weapon
glyph_prime2                    stormstrike
glyph_prime3                    lava_lash

glyph_major1                    chain_lightning
glyph_major2                    -
glyph_major3                    -

armor_type_bonus                1

primary_talent                  enhancement
elemental_weapons               2/2
focused_strikes                 3/3
improved_shields                0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
flurry                          3/3
static_shock                    3/3
improved_fire_nova              2/2
searing_flames                  3/3
frozen_power                    0/2
shamanistic_rage                1/1
unleashed_rage                  2/2
improved_lava_lash              2/2
maelstrom_weapon                3/3

convection                      0/2
concussion                      2/3
call_of_flame                   2/2
reverberation                   2/2
elemental_precision             1/3
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_oath                  0/2
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
elemental_mastery               0/1
feedback                        0/3
lava_surge                      0/2


#43 Rouncer

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:22 PM

The person I was responding to was planning on running FS - FT - LL which your graph is showing as 15606. I said that for a caster mainhand they should swap our FS instead of SS which would be running FT - SS - LL which your chart shows as 15667. 15667 > 15606

#44 ehakam

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 08:45 PM

In theory there is a point where it makes sense to abort a LB for a LvB, but in any practical situation, the time window is just too small. Never abort a started cast (unless you have to move from fire ofc).


I agree with your conclusion, but I don't necessarily agree with your explanation. There are too many variables to consider; you would need a simulator to accurately simulate it. Based on the above scenario, in most cases, if you cancel the LvB you would be casting a LB after it anyway. So in the 3s or so of time, you're casting LB -> LvB vs. LB (cancelled) -> LvB -> LB. Therefore, in the big picture of the entire fight, all this accomplishes is inserting a small period of no casting for a slightly reduced cooldown on your LvB. To accurately compare the two scenarios, you would have to calculate at the end of the fight, the extra # of LvB casts you were able to cast due to cancelling your LB, and divide that by the time wasted by cancelling your LB to see if it's an overall increase in dps.

Also, it looks like CL has a higher DPET than LB, shouldn't it be used in favour of LB provided you do not go OOM?

#45 Stelmaria

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 11:22 PM

Okay, looking at it from your point of view, what's the gain in canceling LB in the first place? Instead of doing a LB-LvB, we're doing a LvB-LB plus some waiting. If you're just moving casts around, you're not changing dps in any way.
If you use something like "Don't abort LB after more than 0.25 sec casting", you lose 10 seconds of casting time over a 6minute fight (~40 LvBs can be cast in that time window) or about 5-6 LB casts.

#46 ehakam

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 12:00 AM

I'm agreeing with you; I don't think stopping a cast of LB to cast LvB ever has any merit in an actual gameplay situation. It's the same question as "if I have X seconds left on cooldown for the LvB, what should I do?". If you don't have lava surge, then the dps gain/loss is easier to calculate.

Scenario 1: LB->LvB->LB (where the Lava surge procs or LvB comes off cooldown during the first LB)
Scenario 2: (delay) -> LvB->LB->LB

The penalty in Scenario 1 is that you won't actually get to use a LvB every 8s (+LvB cast time), where as in Scenario 2, you'll get a much tighter rotation. If you use Scenario 2 enough times (X ~= 9s/LB cast time-delay) you'll eventually have pushed your LvB CD forward enough times such that you'll get an extra cast at the cost of some amount of time (X delays). Approximately, the gain would be (LvB dmg - (3/4)LB dmg) and the loss would be (X delays/LB cast time) * LB dmg or (9s * delay / (LB cast time - delay) * LB cast time) * LB dmg. Given an expected 24k dmg LvB and a 13k dmg LB, and a LB cast time of 1.5s, the delay comes out to a little under 0.3s.

Now that assumes we don't have lava surge, which is where the math becomes tricky. In the above example, rearranging LB and LvB means that eventually you'll have push your LvB forward enough times such that you get an "extra" LvB relative to Scenario 1. However, with lava surge, if it proc's at a time where in both scenarios LvB is on cooldown, the entire rotation gets reset since your next cast is LvB. All the benefit of delaying your cast is now gone. Therefore, with lava surge, the only time you get this benefit is if it proc's at a time where in Scenario 1 LvB would already be off cooldown, but in Scenario 2 it's still on cooldown. This time period is the same time it takes to cast exactly 1 LB, and the overall time period of the rotation is 8s + 1 LvB cast. Approximately 15% depending on your haste value. So you'd have approximately a 15% chance of getting an extra LvB cast somewhere down the road if you cancel/delay your cast. The math is then similar to the above, which means the delay will have to be less than 0.2s.

I hope that explanation suffices. Either way, the value is so low that after factoring reaction time + latency, it's extremely unlikely you'll get any benefit from ever cancelling a cast.

#47 YenLoWang

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:22 PM

I was wondering how often resto shaman are using Nature's Swiftness in either raiding or Arena/Rated BGs. I started playing again in Cataclysm and have been healing normals and heroics, and I have found that I don't really use it at all. The scenario of I need GHW right now just doesn't seem to exist. Any scenario close to that can be solved with a Healing Surge cast instead. I was thinking of dropping NS from my spec and putting the point in either Cleansing Waters or another point in some off-spec talent.

#48 Akumasama

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 03:45 AM

I'm looking for an addon that will track the amount of seconds left on a riptide that i've thrown out and display this time left within grid without taking up the center icon as I use that for debuffs.

I use GridStatusHots.
Doesn't display seconds, but rather makes your normal square dot icon change color at 3 different threshold. You can set it all the way you like it. For example Make the icon of Riptide green at start, yellow after 10 seconds, and red when 3 seconds are left. I configured it to be Yellow at start, and red when 4 seconds are left.


( I'd also like to know an addon that can show me which targets on grid have power word shield through use of an icon rather then a box and the timeleft on it? Is this possible?

May be wrong here, but I don't know any grid module allowing you to do so. It's perfectly possible on Vuhdo though, so you might considered changing Grid for Vuhdo.

#49 Grookshank

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:33 AM

Could anyone please post the correct sprit/int to mp5 formula for Resto Shamans in 4.0.6? I find so many different values on the web.

Thanks.

#50 Cadiac

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:02 PM

I was playing with the gear I have and testing different spellpower weapons, when I noticed something strange.

When I equip my Biting Wind, the damage shown in the melee tab is 1739-1961, whereas when I use my Scepter of Power the damage shown is 1894-2107. Why is this? I see that dagger's DPS is higher, but shouldn't the dagger also have higher damage because mace's base damage is lower and AP stays the same?
Or is there different scaling with AP on different weapon types/weapon speeds?

I'm afraid this question is a bit more game mechanics than shaman related, but posting it here.

EDIT: in live Scepter of Power's damage is 2-214, not 51-95 as wowhead claims.
EDIT2: The further I think, I think i'm missing something important here. I guess I have thought that the damage formula is more simple than it actually is..

#51 iamajellydonut

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:28 PM

What exactly "buffs" the Fire Elemental? I've heard so many tales that at this point I'm just winging it.

#52 Ohgg

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:16 AM

With regards to weapon damage, Attack Power adds to weapon DPS, not to weapon damage directly. So a slower weapon gets more damage per swing than a faster weapon from the same amount of attack power, but the overall DPS increase is the same.

#53 Cadiac

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:07 AM

Ah, that makes sense Ohgg. I always thought for some reason that damage is calculated with formula like "(Weapon damage) + ((AP coefficient) x AP)", but obviously I was wrong. Thanks, you made me feel dumb now because even mouseover on attack power says it increases DPS!

#54 Sarvius

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:07 AM

I was wondering how often resto shaman are using Nature's Swiftness in either raiding or Arena/Rated BGs. I started playing again in Cataclysm and have been healing normals and heroics, and I have found that I don't really use it at all. The scenario of I need GHW right now just doesn't seem to exist. Any scenario close to that can be solved with a Healing Surge cast instead. I was thinking of dropping NS from my spec and putting the point in either Cleansing Waters or another point in some off-spec talent.


Healing surge is the same (roughly) HPS as GHW but is dramatically lower HPM. So no, the situation cannot simply be dealt with by healing surge. Unless you're only defining "dealt with" as having no one die rather than playing as optimally as possible. When that situation arises (as you said, it usually shouldn't), use NS. If it's on cooldown use a healing surge but, barring extreme circumstances, healing surge should never really be cast. The same is true for every other healing class - except for druid/priest clearcast procs. Fast heals are not meant for PVE, they're abysmal hpm. Spamming them is an old habit that should be broken as soon as possible or you won't be able to contribute very well in raids.

That said, if you can find a useful place to put the point and you feel like you never use it, more power to you. NS is certainly not a required talent. I don't advise passing it up, but it's a judgement call.

#55 crazygamer84

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:58 AM

Ah, that makes sense Ohgg. I always thought for some reason that damage is calculated with formula like "(Weapon damage) + ((AP coefficient) x AP)", but obviously I was wrong. Thanks, you made me feel dumb now because even mouseover on attack power says it increases DPS!


I've got a guild member that told me the caster MH for enhancement ft/ft for now (before the next patch) is higher dps on the mace (2.3 aspd) than biting wind (1.8 aspd), which shows a higher dps on white hits as shown on the tool tips. He's rationale is the weapon attack speed is slower. I assume he means the ft procs more damage each time on the mace, but don't the 1.8 asp biting wind proc more often to match the ft dmg?

#56 Kirion

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:41 PM

Healing surge is the same (roughly) HPS as GHW but is dramatically lower HPM. So no, the situation cannot simply be dealt with by healing surge. Unless you're only defining "dealt with" as having no one die rather than playing as optimally as possible. When that situation arises (as you said, it usually shouldn't), use NS. If it's on cooldown use a healing surge but, barring extreme circumstances, healing surge should never really be cast. The same is true for every other healing class - except for druid/priest clearcast procs. Fast heals are not meant for PVE, they're abysmal hpm. Spamming them is an old habit that should be broken as soon as possible or you won't be able to contribute very well in raids.

That said, if you can find a useful place to put the point and you feel like you never use it, more power to you. NS is certainly not a required talent. I don't advise passing it up, but it's a judgement call.


And that is not true. Tidal Waves make Healing Surge almost same HPM as GHW. Also count additional AA procs.
42.

#57 smalliam

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:55 PM

Let me apologize from the get go, if this wrong forum, wrong thread to post this question, but I spend hours looking at add-ons, installing a few and have not found exactly what I am looking for.

Is there an add-on to track the remaining ticks on FS, not the duration of FS

#58 Blayneburner

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:34 PM

Enhancement Question

I've been looking through the forums to figure out why caster MH weapons increase our dps. Can someone give me the basics so I can better figure out what to look for in the future?

#59 zuuz

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:01 PM

Enhancement Question

I've been looking through the forums to figure out why caster MH weapons increase our dps. Can someone give me the basics so I can better figure out what to look for in the future?


The reason is that main-hand spellpower items are the most heavily statted items in the game and Flametongue weapon currently scales from spellpower. This will change in 4.0.6 as Blizzard has changed Flametongue Weapon damage to now scales from attack power instead of spell power (for Enhancement shaman only).

Totem Talk: Enhancement and spellpower weapons, a problematic pair

#60 Seluna

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:31 AM

I'm looking for an addon that will track the amount of seconds left on a riptide that i've thrown out and display this time left within grid without taking up the center icon as I use that for debuffs. I'd also like to know an addon that can show me which targets on grid have power word shield through use of an icon rather then a box and the timeleft on it? Is this possible?

These all need to be grid friendly and displayed within the grid box! Thank you!


I can definitely recommend GridIndicatorIconBar. This allows you to use mutliple Icons and not only the center icon. I am currently using four icons, The first one for Earthshield, the second for Riptide, the third for Boss Debuffs and the last one for Dispellable Debuffs. Keep in mind that you have to make the icons big enough, or you won't see the timer in numbers. Adjusting the "ranking" of buffs/debuffs can also help.




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