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EnhSim for Cataclysm


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#41 ziff

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:53 AM

What information do we need for the feral spirits?


It's mainly going to be about stats, since the feral spirits don't get effected by buffs anymore. So here's some items:

1) What are the feral spirits base stats at level 85?
2) How do the feral spirits inherit our stats? Do they get 30% of our agility, for example? What about haste, melee crit, etc.
3) How is attack power calculated for feral spirits? Is it 2 x Agility, or based on strength like in LK, or is it something more involved?
4) Do the feral spirits get effected by debuffs on the boss still?
5) I assume this is a no, but do the feral spirits get any effect from mastery at all?
6) What is the attack speed of the feral spirits?
7) Do the feral spirits get effected dynamically by our stats or do they lock them in on cast? Is it only partially like just totems/raid buffs but not trinket effects?

This should be a good start.

#42 Rouncer

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:15 AM

AP values change dynamically.

They receive WF totem buff and blood lust but do not benefit from SoE except through the increase in AP we get from the totem. They do not benefit from our haste and do not benefit from mastery.

From what I can tell they only seem to inherit our AP, they do inherit our spellpower as well but don't do anything with it.

Following stats are without the glyph

Naked I have 669 AP
Wolves have 1152 AP, 572.7 dps, 1.5 attack speed

Normal gear - 9253 AP
Wolves have 3982 AP, 784.9 dps, 1.5 attack speed

Normal gear + SoE - 11127 AP
Wolves have 4599 AP, 831.3 dps, 1.5 attack speed

With WF Totem attack speed drops to 1.36 and with Bloodlust drops to 1.05. Both buffs show on the wolves. Seems like they are affected by all buffs/debuffs that don't deal with attack power.

Edit:

With Glyph
Normal Gear + SoE Totem = 10929
Wolves have 8020 AP

#43 kurai01

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:09 PM

Don't use Hurricane yet in the Sim. Ziff has it working properly for the procs from spells but hasn't sorted out how to get the spell procs to play properly with the melee procs.


Does this warning still stand for EnhSim 2.2.6, considering the changes in 2.2.5? I'm still seeing double Avalanche consistently sim higher than single or double Hurricane. This is more noticeable as my Mastery has increased, which seems to makes sense.

#44 Rouncer

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:14 PM

Does this warning still stand for EnhSim 2.2.6, considering the changes in 2.2.5? I'm still seeing double Avalanche consistently sim higher than single or double Hurricane. This is more noticeable as my Mastery has increased, which seems to makes sense.


Nope, warning was for builds prior to 2.2.6. Ziff's changes should give a reasonable approximation of the value of a hurricane enchant on a weapon. His actually might be a little better since he set it up as two separate buffs while in the game you only get a double stack when a spell procs a stack and there isn't already a melee stack active. If there is a melee stack then it just gets refreshed. Still should be close enough for our purposes of evaluating the enchant.

Anecdotally, I stuck hurricane on a weapon and tried it for a few heroics. I felt I did better with Avalanche so I swapped back at the end of the night.

#45 Morelis

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:17 PM

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere so forgive me if this is old information, but Avalanche can proc off of nearly all of our non-pet damage sources, including spells. I did some testing a few days ago and found that the only attack that didn't appear to proc it is Flametongue Weapon. It did proc from all of our direct attacks as well as Flame Shock dot ticks and even Lightning Shield. The testing I did was fairly limited with each spell but rough proc rates seemed to be around 25% for Shocks and 20% for LB. I also observed that dual-wielding two Avalanche enchants did not increase the proc chance for spells. The rest of my observations were in line with Rouncer's findings.

Playing around with 2.2.6-alpha showed that this behavior isn't currently modeled. It makes me wonder if the best choice might end up being using Hurricane and Avalanche on one weapon each since they both gain additional benefits with spell procs.

#46 Rouncer

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:56 PM

Only issue is that I'm not seeing that behavior reflected in the WoL combat parses. For melee attacks it definitely does not have a cooldown since I observed it proccing from each hit of a windfury proc. If that is also the case for spells and especially for DoT ticks then something else is going on since there just aren't enough procs showing to account for that many attacks.

Hurricane also has no ICD off melee attacks but a 45 second one off spells. Is Avalanche following the same sort of behavior for spells?

I'll try to test it more thoroughly when I get home later.

#47 Morelis

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:14 PM

Just looking at Chimaeron for last reset I count 700 valid attacks and 149 Avalanche procs, ~21.2% proc rate, which seems fairly reasonable. I don't believe there's an ICD for spell procs, when I was testing it(by just standing at range and casting) the procs were quite frequent.

#48 Rouncer

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:54 AM

808 valid in that parse from what I can tell. Glancing blows should be able to proc the trinket too since they are still melee attacks that are doing damage.

Did some quick testing and definitely seeing the proc on spell behavior. Chain casting LBs while using FS on cooldown I wasn't able to get two procs inside of 10 seconds. Could be that the spells have a short ICD while the melee do not. Did you get two procs tightly together off just spells in your testing?

#49 Morelis

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 02:39 AM

Woops, I forgot about glancings. During the was testing I wasn't looking for an ICD so I wasn't watching the frequency that closely and I didn't record a log. I can't say with any certainty if there were or weren't any under 10 seconds, just that they were 'frequent'.

#50 Delsin

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:45 AM

I was doing some testing in EnhSim, and it looks like double Mongoose is the best enchant if you don't have access to Landslide, or if you are looking for something temporary. It was simming higher than both double Berserking, and all combinations of Berserking, Hurricane, and Avalanche. I am assuming that mongoose is modeled correctly, but I realize this might be a bug with the Sim. I can also post my config file if anyone is would like to see it. I'm not sure what I could have messed up to give me these results, but I realize it could be an error on my part.

I also plan to test out the enchants tomorrow, so I will report back with any findings.

#51 Delsin

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 12:58 AM

I think I may have found a bug with the Sim. I tested two setups that were both nearly identical except for that one had 50 more haste, and the other had 50 more mastery. For some reason the setup with the 50 haste instead of mastery resulted in ~800 more DPS. It would appear that the haste is giving significantly more Flametongue procs which is giving it the extra DPS.

Looking at the outputs with Mongoose it would seem that perhaps the haste component of it is what may have been causing the increased DPS.

EDIT:
I added my config files for my tests. Also, I tested double mongoose and my performance was definitely down from my previous setup which was Berserking/Hurricane.

Output with 50 more mastery
EnhSim version 2.2.6

................................................................................

MH:
miss                636753         6.31%
dodge               2026           0.02%
glancing            2421970        23.99%
hit                 3188736        31.58%
crit                3846404        38.10%
average ap          14309.85       
clip                0              0.00%

MH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 4845447        79.13%
crit                1278165        20.87%
average sp          10429.78       

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               392            0.02%
hit                 1080911        59.32%
crit                740942         40.66%
average ap          14225.95       

MH Unleashed Weapon Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 876036         79.11%
crit                231370         20.89%
average sp          10452.34       

OH:
miss                636048         6.30%
dodge               2035           0.02%
glancing            2425251        24.02%
hit                 3195323        31.65%
crit                3837238        38.01%
average ap          14264.51       
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 7862725        79.17%
crit                2068417        20.83%
average sp          10419.75       

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               370            0.02%
hit                 1073617        58.93%
crit                747866         41.05%
average ap          14292.87       

OH Unleashed Weapon Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 876583         79.16%
crit                230823         20.84%
average sp          10452.34       

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 698751         44.17%
crit                883146         55.83%
average sp          10417.63       

Flame Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 671567         79.12%
crit                177265         20.88%
average sp          10482.75       
dots hit            4193950        79.14%
dots crit           1105760        20.86%
average dot sp      10525.98       

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               329            0.02%
hit                 978370         59.12%
crit                676094         40.86%
average ap          14194.58       

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 836250         44.56%
crit                1040339        55.44%
average sp          10458.76       

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1054750        44.24%
crit                1329208        55.76%
average sp          10456.69       

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            1699562        24.03%
hit                 4457464        63.03%
crit                914792         12.94%
average ap          14583.83       

Searing Totem:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 8499722        79.15%
crit                2239640        20.85%
average sp          10420.98       

Searing Flames:
hit                 3740429        79.12%
crit                987266         20.88%
average sp          10406.41       

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 34.97
efficiency          89.43%

flurry uptime                  78.99%
elemental devastation uptime   90.62%
UW Flametongue uptime          28.14%

mh enchant uptime              33.33%
oh enchant uptime              37.20%
stormstrike debuff uptime      98.94%
flame shock uptime             79.81%
lightning shield uptime        100.00%
searing totem uptime           99.76%
searing flame uptime           91.85%

trinket1 uptime                    17.82%
gloves enchant uptime              21.14%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.49      0.13%
mp5                 134.05    36.09%
replenishment       31.13     8.38%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
primal wisdom       205.75    55.40%
shamanistic rage    0.00      0.00%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               3033.01   16.2%     67.31
flametongue         2569.08   13.72%    53.52
searing flames      720.62    3.85%     15.76
stormstrike         1117.49   5.97%     6.07      47.44     21.32%
lava lash           2560.38   13.68%    5.52      21.54     9.68%
searing totem       2284.00   12.2%     1.09      7.47      3.36%
earth shock         940.19    5.02%     5.27      92.66     41.64%
flame shock         1157.25   6.18%     2.83      46.96     21.10%
  direct damage     313.77    1.68%     2.83
  dot tick          843.48    4.51%     17.67
lightning bolt      1851.84   9.89%     6.26      0.00      0.00%
lightning shield    858.85    4.59%     0.14      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       434.62    2.32%     0.55      6.47      2.91%
unleashed elements  1191.56   6.37%     3.69      25.23     11.34%
  MH Flametongue    595.86    50.01%    3.69
  OH Flametongue    595.71    49.99%    3.69

DPS                 18718.91
MPS                 222.54
MP2min              26704.74
MRPS                1008.19
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 13.87s
simulation speed: 1297858x

Output with 50 more haste
EnhSim version 2.2.6

................................................................................

MH:
miss                635729         6.30%
dodge               1947           0.02%
glancing            2421489        24.00%
hit                 3189976        31.61%
crit                3841601        38.07%
average ap          14293.95       
clip                0              0.00%

MH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 8485443        79.16%
crit                2234356        20.84%
average sp          10442.00       

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               378            0.02%
hit                 1083200        59.37%
crit                741051         40.61%
average ap          14227.94       

MH Unleashed Weapon Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 877047         79.21%
crit                230221         20.79%
average sp          10453.24       

OH:
miss                635036         6.29%
dodge               2068           0.02%
glancing            2421299        24.00%
hit                 3188951        31.60%
crit                3843389        38.09%
average ap          14295.38       
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 8368066        79.16%
crit                2203610        20.84%
average sp          10440.33       

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               374            0.02%
hit                 1075215        58.94%
crit                748662         41.04%
average ap          14294.13       

OH Unleashed Weapon Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 876295         79.14%
crit                230973         20.86%
average sp          10453.24       

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 701097         44.11%
crit                888190         55.89%
average sp          10418.77       

Flame Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 669062         79.19%
crit                175836         20.81%
average sp          10484.03       
dots hit            4207295        79.16%
dots crit           1107905        20.84%
average dot sp      10525.51       

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               342            0.02%
hit                 979062         59.19%
crit                674608         40.79%
average ap          14195.53       

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 839258         44.48%
crit                1047762        55.52%
average sp          10457.32       

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1055770        44.23%
crit                1331214        55.77%
average sp          10458.21       

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            1697504        23.98%
hit                 4463940        63.06%
crit                917830         12.97%
average ap          14584.53       

Searing Totem:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 8501230        79.16%
crit                2237880        20.84%
average sp          10421.29       

Searing Flames:
hit                 3739318        79.15%
crit                985122         20.85%
average sp          10406.94       

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 34.96
efficiency          89.96%

flurry uptime                  77.52%
elemental devastation uptime   90.68%
UW Flametongue uptime          28.15%

mh enchant uptime              33.32%
oh enchant uptime              37.12%
stormstrike debuff uptime      98.94%
flame shock uptime             79.74%
lightning shield uptime        100.00%
searing totem uptime           99.76%
searing flame uptime           91.84%

trinket1 uptime                    17.82%
gloves enchant uptime              21.14%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.47      0.13%
mp5                 131.02    35.24%
replenishment       30.56     8.22%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
primal wisdom       209.69    56.41%
shamanistic rage    0.00      0.00%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               3031.76   15.54%    67.27
flametongue         3396.10   17.41%    70.97
searing flames      716.43    3.67%     15.75
stormstrike         1118.78   5.74%     6.08      47.50     21.32%
lava lash           2545.57   13.05%    5.51      21.53     9.66%
searing totem       2272.78   11.65%    1.09      7.47      3.35%
earth shock         940.34    4.82%     5.30      93.09     41.78%
flame shock         1152.48   5.91%     2.82      46.74     20.98%
  direct damage     310.74    1.59%     2.82
  dot tick          841.74    4.32%     17.72
lightning bolt      1853.58   9.5%      6.29      0.00      0.00%
lightning shield    855.93    4.39%     0.14      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       435.30    2.23%     0.55      6.47      2.91%
unleashed elements  1185.49   6.08%     3.69      25.22     11.32%
  MH Flametongue    592.65    49.99%    3.69
  OH Flametongue    592.84    50.01%    3.69

DPS                 19504.54
MPS                 222.81
MP2min              26737.30
MRPS                1007.62
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 14.36s
simulation speed: 1253569x


Both of these configs are with double Mongoose. I can switch the enchants to something else and repost my config if you would like.


This is the config file with the 50 mastery
### Saved by v2.2.6 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  2.2.6
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         250
max_lag                         350
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           160
ep_crit_rating                  80
ep_hit_rating                   80
ep_expertise_rating             80
ep_haste_rating                 80
ep_mastery_rating               80
ep_spellpower                   92
ep_dps                          15.0
ep_mana                         1200
ep_spirit                       80
ep_mp5                          80
ep_intellect                    80
ep_agility                      80
ep_strength                     80

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
use_bloodlust                   1
always_bloodlust_wolves         0
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   2
cast_searing_only_if_ticks_left 1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       0
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    1000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

gloves_enchant                  synapse_springs
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       -

rotation_priority_count         8
rotation_priority1              ST
rotation_priority2              LL
rotation_priority3              FS_UEF
rotation_priority4              MW5_LB
rotation_priority5              UE
rotation_priority6              SS
rotation_priority7              ES
rotation_priority8              SW

aoe_rotation_priority_count     0

fight_name                      standard_single_target
miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        24.00
armor                           11977
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.00
additional_target_level         85

armor_debuff                    12.0/12.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                10.0/10.0
crit_chance_buff                5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_multiplier    10.0/10.0
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             8.0/8.0
spellpower_buff                 10.0/10.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 5.0/5.0
agi_and_strength_buff           549/549
mana_buff                       2126/2126
mana_regen_buff                 326/326

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    flask_of_the_winds
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_the_tolvir
food                            skewered_eel

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            draenei
mh_speed                        2.60
oh_speed                        2.60
mh_dps                          409.5
oh_dps                          409.5
mh_crit                         23.03
oh_crit                         23.03
mh_hit                          20.70
oh_hit                          20.70
mh_expertise_rating             542
oh_expertise_rating             542
ap                              8883
melee_haste                     2.55
str                             147
agi                             3799
int                             154
spi                             173
mastery_rating                  1742
spellpower                      4585
spell_crit                      10.85
spell_hit                       17.06
spell_haste                     2.55
max_mana                        25460
mp5                             1171

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      mongoose
oh_enchant                      mongoose

mh_weapon                       axe
oh_weapon                       axe

trinket1                        left_eye_of_rajh_heroic
trinket2                        fluid_death

set_bonus1                      -
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

glyph_prime1                    feral_spirit
glyph_prime2                    lava_lash
glyph_prime3                    stormstrike

glyph_major1                    -
glyph_major2                    -
glyph_major3                    -

armor_type_bonus                1

primary_talent                  enhancement
elemental_weapons               2/2
focused_strikes                 3/3
improved_shields                0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
flurry                          3/3
static_shock                    3/3
improved_fire_nova              2/2
searing_flames                  3/3
frozen_power                    0/2
shamanistic_rage                1/1
unleashed_rage                  2/2
improved_lava_lash              2/2
maelstrom_weapon                3/3

convection                      0/2
concussion                      3/3
call_of_flame                   2/2
reverberation                   2/2
elemental_precision             0/3
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_oath                  0/2
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
elemental_mastery               0/1
feedback                        0/3
lava_surge                      0/2

This is the config with 50 haste
### Saved by v2.2.6 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  2.2.6
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         250
max_lag                         350
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           160
ep_crit_rating                  80
ep_hit_rating                   80
ep_expertise_rating             80
ep_haste_rating                 80
ep_mastery_rating               80
ep_spellpower                   92
ep_dps                          15.0
ep_mana                         1200
ep_spirit                       80
ep_mp5                          80
ep_intellect                    80
ep_agility                      80
ep_strength                     80

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
use_bloodlust                   1
always_bloodlust_wolves         0
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   2
cast_searing_only_if_ticks_left 1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       0
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    1000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

gloves_enchant                  synapse_springs
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       -

rotation_priority_count         8
rotation_priority1              ST
rotation_priority2              LL
rotation_priority3              FS_UEF
rotation_priority4              MW5_LB
rotation_priority5              UE
rotation_priority6              SS
rotation_priority7              ES
rotation_priority8              SW

aoe_rotation_priority_count     0

fight_name                      standard_single_target
miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        24.00
armor                           11977
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.00
additional_target_level         85

armor_debuff                    12.0/12.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                10.0/10.0
crit_chance_buff                5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_multiplier    10.0/10.0
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             8.0/8.0
spellpower_buff                 10.0/10.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 5.0/5.0
agi_and_strength_buff           549/549
mana_buff                       2126/2126
mana_regen_buff                 326/326

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    flask_of_the_winds
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_the_tolvir
food                            skewered_eel

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            draenei
mh_speed                        2.60
oh_speed                        2.60
mh_dps                          409.5
oh_dps                          409.5
mh_crit                         23.03
oh_crit                         23.03
mh_hit                          20.70
oh_hit                          20.70
mh_expertise_rating             542
oh_expertise_rating             542
ap                              8883
melee_haste                     2.94
str                             147
agi                             3799
int                             154
spi                             173
mastery_rating                  1692
spellpower                      4585
spell_crit                      10.85
spell_hit                       17.06
spell_haste                     2.94
max_mana                        25460
mp5                             1171

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      mongoose
oh_enchant                      mongoose

mh_weapon                       axe
oh_weapon                       axe

trinket1                        left_eye_of_rajh_heroic
trinket2                        fluid_death

set_bonus1                      -
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

glyph_prime1                    feral_spirit
glyph_prime2                    lava_lash
glyph_prime3                    stormstrike

glyph_major1                    -
glyph_major2                    -
glyph_major3                    -

armor_type_bonus                1

primary_talent                  enhancement
elemental_weapons               2/2
focused_strikes                 3/3
improved_shields                0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
flurry                          3/3
static_shock                    3/3
improved_fire_nova              2/2
searing_flames                  3/3
frozen_power                    0/2
shamanistic_rage                1/1
unleashed_rage                  2/2
improved_lava_lash              2/2
maelstrom_weapon                3/3

convection                      0/2
concussion                      3/3
call_of_flame                   2/2
reverberation                   2/2
elemental_precision             0/3
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_oath                  0/2
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
elemental_mastery               0/1
feedback                        0/3
lava_surge                      0/2


#52 kavselj

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:10 AM

According to my testing the most viable option at the moment seems to be Avalanche on MH and Hurricane on OH. Double Avalanche isn't that far behind (on average about 5-10 dps less) while double Hurricane shows considerably less than either of the previously mentioned combinations (up to 50 dps less).

#53 Rouncer

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:39 AM

Delsin, post your config.

EDIT - are you running matched weapons? When I change weapon speeds so they match I'm seeing a similar but opposite jump in dps. Guessing it is somehow related to how the sim is handling flametongue's 0.15 second ICD. Would still like to look at your config to see if it reacts similarly to what I am finding when I play with mine.

#54 ziff

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 02:15 AM

Delsin, post your config.

EDIT - are you running matched weapons? When I change weapon speeds so they match I'm seeing a similar but opposite jump in dps. Guessing it is somehow related to how the sim is handling flametongue's 0.15 second ICD. Would still like to look at your config to see if it reacts similarly to what I am finding when I play with mine.


Please post up your config that reproduces this. If you look at the two results you have posted, the real main difference is that the main hand Flametongue procs doubled when you added the 50 haste. It's interesting that the offhand flametongue didn't have any major jump. It's possible it's somehow related to the flametongue cooldown, but doing a quick scan on the code I don't see anything obvious. Unless I can repro it myself, I really need your config file to track this down.

EDIT: Thanks for the configs. I'll start to look into it.

EDIT2: OK, I think I see the problem, just not why it's happening. The problem isn't the dps increase adding the 50 haste. The problem is the lack of MH Flametongue procs when you had 2.55 % haste. My thinking is this is due to the MH getting locked out due to the 0.15 seconds cooldown added for flametongue attacks. Now currently implemented, this is a shared cooldown between both MH and OH. Maybe each hand should have it's own cooldown? Has anybody tested this on Live to see if the cooldown between flametongue attacks is linked or not?

#55 Rouncer

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:52 AM

It's linked. Really easy to see too. Just FT/FT and then Stormstrike and you will only see one FT proc even though there are two weapons hitting.

#56 Torcha

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:53 PM

Like Delsin above, I found about +760 dps adding 80 haste with FT/FT. Haste had very “oscillating” EP values (between 0,6 and 1,2) since Cata launch but here I got 0,04 with WF/FT (without all raid buffs) and changing to FT/FT I find now 12,4 EP for haste (15,3 with raids buffs!). There's something weird obviously.

There's something wrong too with the Unheeded Warning trinket that isn't in the trinkets lists.

#57 Gondlem

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:14 PM

There's something wrong too with the Unheeded Warning trinket that isn't in the trinkets lists.


Unheeded Warning is in the list for the first trinket slot but not the second, so just swap them around if you want to test the proc, until it's fixed.

#58 Rouncer

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

Like Delsin above, I found about +760 dps adding 80 haste with FT/FT. Haste had very “oscillating” EP values (between 0,6 and 1,2) since Cata launch but here I got 0,04 with WF/FT (without all raid buffs) and changing to FT/FT I find now 12,4 EP for haste (15,3 with raids buffs!). There's something weird obviously.

There's something wrong too with the Unheeded Warning trinket that isn't in the trinkets lists.


It's something to do with the ICD on flametongue when running matching speed weapons with FT/FT.

By the way, if you are running matching speed weapons with FT/FT you are doing it WRONG. NEVER run FT/FT with matching speed weapons.

There is a 0.15 second cooldown that is shared between the two weapons. When you run matched speed weapons if they sync up you can lose up to 50% of your FT procs. Keeping them unsynced is actually a lot of work and is not something you can rely on in a raid setting.

See if you start your attack outside of melee range then when you get into melee range both weapons will hit at the same time. If you start your attack inside melee range then your weapons will alternate strikes. When they are synced you lose half of your FT procs. Unsynced you only lose the ones from one weapon when you Stormstrike and when your instant attacks line up with your autoattacks. Problem is that if your weapons start unsynced and you end up outside of melee range for the duration of one swing timer then when you get back into range they will be synced up.

To try and demonstrate this better I just did two 500,000 damage runs with just autoattacks running FT/FT with 2x2.6 speed weapons on a level 70 dummy. One run I started inside melee range and just right clicked the dummy. The other one I right clicked the dummy while outside of melee range and then moved into melee range.

Started attacking inside of melee range (Unsynced)
506,119 damage - 3414.6 dps
128 melee attacks - 85 hits, 35 crits, 10 misses
118 FT procs - 109 hits and 9 crits
118 melee attacks that did damage -> 118 FT procs = 100%

Started attacking outside of melee range (Synced)
501,343 damage - 3019.0 dps
154 melee attacks - 104 hits, 41 crits, 9 misses
76 FT procs - 73 hits and 3 crits
145 melee attacks that did damage -> 76 FT procs = 52.4%

The sim may not perfectly match in-game conditions but there is no way for the sim to account for whether you managed to keep your weapons unsynced or not during an encounter.

I think what I will just ask Ziff to do is to add a warning for the info box that goes off whenever the weapons speeds are the same and the person has FT/FT selected that says "Running FT/FT with matched speed weapons is NOT recommended due to FT's shared ICD and the condition is not supported by EnhSim. Use the results obtained at your own risk."

EnhSim - EnhSim - View Issue #7735: FT/FT with matched speed weapons.

#59 ziff

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:40 PM

What I don't like right now is the weird stepping function of haste with FT/FT. In the sim currently, it always starts of the main hand and off hand sync'd at time 0.00. So if the sim is working correctly, you should be seeing a bunch of potential FT procs swallowed during the 0.15 cooldown no matter your configuration. But that's not what the sim is currently showing. Here's an example using the default config.txt file. I switched everything off except for auto-attacks on both hands. So no raid buffs, trinkets, enchants, bloodlust, etc. The only other changes are adding FT on the main hand and dropping melee haste down to 2.55%. So here's the config file:

### Saved by v2.2.6 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  2.2.6
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         250
max_lag                         350
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           160
ep_crit_rating                  80
ep_hit_rating                   80
ep_expertise_rating             80
ep_haste_rating                 80
ep_mastery_rating               80
ep_spellpower                   92
ep_dps                          15.0
ep_mana                         1200
ep_spirit                       80
ep_mp5                          80
ep_intellect                    80
ep_agility                      80
ep_strength                     80

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
use_bloodlust                   0
always_bloodlust_wolves         0
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   2
cast_searing_only_if_ticks_left 1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       0
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    1000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       -

rotation_priority_count         0

aoe_rotation_priority_count     0

fight_name                      standard_single_target
miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        24.00
armor                           11977
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.00
additional_target_level         85

armor_debuff                    0/12.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                0/10.0
crit_chance_buff                0/5.0
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/10.0
spell_haste_buff                0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             0/8.0
spellpower_buff                 0/10.0
percentage_damage_increase      0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 0/5.0
agi_and_strength_buff           0/549
mana_buff                       0/2126
mana_regen_buff                 0/326

replenishment                   0
water_shield                    0
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    -
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          -
food                            -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          362.8
oh_dps                          362.8
mh_crit                         17.75
oh_crit                         17.75
mh_hit                          11.86
oh_hit                          11.86
mh_expertise_rating             82
oh_expertise_rating             82
ap                              5708
melee_haste                     2.55
str                             251
agi                             2399
int                             138
spi                             155
mastery_rating                  1201
spellpower                      2982
spell_crit                      9.85
spell_hit                       6.87
spell_haste                     5.35
max_mana                        25520
mp5                             1201

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      -
oh_enchant                      -

mh_weapon                       axe
oh_weapon                       axe

trinket1                        -
trinket2                        -

set_bonus1                      -
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         -

glyph_prime1                    stormstrike
glyph_prime2                    feral_spirit
glyph_prime3                    lava_lash

glyph_major1                    -
glyph_major2                    -
glyph_major3                    -

armor_type_bonus                1

primary_talent                  enhancement
elemental_weapons               2/2
focused_strikes                 3/3
improved_shields                2/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
flurry                          3/3
static_shock                    3/3
improved_fire_nova              0/2
searing_flames                  3/3
frozen_power                    0/2
shamanistic_rage                1/1
unleashed_rage                  2/2
improved_lava_lash              2/2
maelstrom_weapon                3/3

convection                      0/2
concussion                      3/3
call_of_flame                   2/2
reverberation                   2/2
elemental_precision             0/3
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_oath                  0/2
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
elemental_mastery               0/1
feedback                        0/3
lava_surge                      0/2

And here's the output:

EnhSim version 2.2.6

................................................................................


MH:
miss                1167786        15.15%
dodge               294739         3.82%
glancing            1850454        24.01%
hit                 3398253        44.09%
crit                996928         12.93%
average ap          5534.31
clip                0              0.00%

MH Flametongue:
miss                631474         10.15%
hit                 5041783        81.00%
crit                551090         8.85%
average sp          4988.63

OH:
miss                1167400        15.14%
dodge               294435         3.82%
glancing            1849143        23.99%
hit                 3400295        44.11%
crit                996888         12.93%
average ap          5533.83
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                634131         10.15%
hit                 5058675        80.99%
crit                553517         8.86%
average sp          4988.39

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 18.04
efficiency          0.01%

flurry uptime                  28.29%
unleashed rage uptime          66.90%

lightning shield uptime        100.00%


                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 0.00      100.00%
replenishment       0.00      0.00%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
primal wisdom       0.00      0.00%
shamanistic rage    0.00      0.00%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               752.70    50.23%    51.39
flametongue         745.83    49.77%    41.57

DPS                 1498.52
MPS                 0.00
MP2min              0.00
MRPS                1736.48
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 3.71s
simulation speed: 4849137x

So boring as boring gets. Note that the number of FT procs between the main hand and off hand are roughly the same.

Now let me try to run the sim again, but just changing melee haste to 2.57%.

### Saved by v2.2.6 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  2.2.6
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         250
max_lag                         350
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           160
ep_crit_rating                  80
ep_hit_rating                   80
ep_expertise_rating             80
ep_haste_rating                 80
ep_mastery_rating               80
ep_spellpower                   92
ep_dps                          15.0
ep_mana                         1200
ep_spirit                       80
ep_mp5                          80
ep_intellect                    80
ep_agility                      80
ep_strength                     80

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
use_bloodlust                   0
always_bloodlust_wolves         0
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   2
cast_searing_only_if_ticks_left 1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       0
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    1000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       -

rotation_priority_count         0

aoe_rotation_priority_count     0

fight_name                      standard_single_target
miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        24.00
armor                           11977
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.00
additional_target_level         85

armor_debuff                    0/12.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                0/10.0
crit_chance_buff                0/5.0
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/10.0
spell_haste_buff                0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             0/8.0
spellpower_buff                 0/10.0
percentage_damage_increase      0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 0/5.0
agi_and_strength_buff           0/549
mana_buff                       0/2126
mana_regen_buff                 0/326

replenishment                   0
water_shield                    0
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    -
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          -
food                            -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          362.8
oh_dps                          362.8
mh_crit                         17.75
oh_crit                         17.75
mh_hit                          11.86
oh_hit                          11.86
mh_expertise_rating             82
oh_expertise_rating             82
ap                              5708
melee_haste                     2.57
str                             251
agi                             2399
int                             138
spi                             155
mastery_rating                  1201
spellpower                      2982
spell_crit                      9.85
spell_hit                       6.87
spell_haste                     5.35
max_mana                        25520
mp5                             1201

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      -
oh_enchant                      -

mh_weapon                       axe
oh_weapon                       axe

trinket1                        -
trinket2                        -

set_bonus1                      -
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         -

glyph_prime1                    stormstrike
glyph_prime2                    feral_spirit
glyph_prime3                    lava_lash

glyph_major1                    -
glyph_major2                    -
glyph_major3                    -

armor_type_bonus                1

primary_talent                  enhancement
elemental_weapons               2/2
focused_strikes                 3/3
improved_shields                2/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
flurry                          3/3
static_shock                    3/3
improved_fire_nova              0/2
searing_flames                  3/3
frozen_power                    0/2
shamanistic_rage                1/1
unleashed_rage                  2/2
improved_lava_lash              2/2
maelstrom_weapon                3/3

convection                      0/2
concussion                      3/3
call_of_flame                   2/2
reverberation                   2/2
elemental_precision             0/3
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_oath                  0/2
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
elemental_mastery               0/1
feedback                        0/3
lava_surge                      0/2

And here's the output with 2.57% melee haste.

EnhSim version 2.2.6

................................................................................


MH:
miss                1170304        15.16%
dodge               294115         3.81%
glancing            1852286        23.99%
hit                 3403859        44.08%
crit                1001038        12.96%
average ap          5556.29
clip                0              0.00%

MH Flametongue:
miss                175984         10.15%
hit                 1404695        81.01%
crit                153401         8.85%
average sp          4992.75

OH:
miss                1170521        15.16%
dodge               295673         3.83%
glancing            1852245        23.99%
hit                 3403572        44.08%
crit                999591         12.95%
average ap          5534.48
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                631949         10.15%
hit                 5041355        81.00%
crit                550551         8.85%
average sp          4988.65

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 18.08
efficiency          0.01%

flurry uptime                  28.37%
unleashed rage uptime          66.92%

lightning shield uptime        100.00%


                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 0.00      100.00%
replenishment       0.00      0.00%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
primal wisdom       0.00      0.00%
shamanistic rage    0.00      0.00%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               755.29    61.34%    51.48
flametongue         475.98    38.66%    26.53

DPS                 1231.27
MPS                 0.00
MP2min              0.00
MRPS                1736.96
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 3.48s
simulation speed: 5175388x

Note the massive drop in main hand FT procs. It went from roughly 6 million FT procs to less than 2 million. The number of white hits did jump up slightly as expected, so this isn't something generic with haste. And the number of off hand FT procs is inline between the two sims, which also indicates it's not something generic with haste. I did change the sim to keep track of FT procs eaten from the cooldown and that drop from the main hand is completely attributed to FT procs getting eaten during the cooldown.

I'm going to keep looking into this because this does still indicate that something is wrong. But this does beg the question, should the sim be expecting sync'd weapons? How does flurry interact with sync'd weapons? Does flurry unsync sync'd weapons? Or does it sync unsync'd weapons? I'm a little hesitant to dig into this, because I think this mechanic was worked out long ago with the sim. But right now, bumping up haste 0.02% should never have that large of an impact unless something on live backs up that mechanic.

#60 Rouncer

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 12:34 AM

Flurry doesn't unsync weapons. Neither will misses or parries. The sim shouldn't support FT/FT with matched weapons because it's going to be a dps loss since it's practically impossible to ensure that matched speed weapons won't end up synced. Start your attack only when in melee range and they will be unsynced but the moment you leave melee range for more then 2-3 seconds they are synced up again.

FT/FT being good is a caster mainhand thing not only because of the spellpower but also because the caster mainhands almost never run at the same speed as the melee ones.

If someone really thinks they are capable of making sure their same speed weapons will never sync up, what they can always do is just set one of the weapons to 2.61 and the other to 2.59 and that should give them the results from the sim that they are expecting. I really don't recommend it though since it's very hard to tell when they sync up with all of the combat effects and with how fast your combat log is going to be scrolling by.




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