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[Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3


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#21 doogless

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 08:49 AM

In your approximation, you're missing that UE can't overload and doesn't gain Lightning Shield charges for Fulmination like LB.

#22 masanbol

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 03:12 PM

I don't find that I agree with your advice to omit Unleash Elements from the rotation.

Yes, it is a dps loss when purely compared to a LB cast. However, when using it immediately prior to a LvB, one has to compare BOTH the damage from the UE itself, plus the extra 20% gained on the LvB following it to the damage from a single LB alone.

Looking through my data for my fight on Argaloth a couple of days ago, I found that when I added the average damage from UE itself, plus the extra from the LvB, this came out as roughly 1000 more than an average LB cast (14500 vs 13500).

So, even without factoring the reduced casting time of the UE compared to the slightly longer LB, it seems that this is, in fact, bringing a definite dps boost.


This is incorrect because you're missing that UE consumes a GCD on it's own, as does LvB, so if you want to use the logic you just did, you would have to compare UE + LvB to two LB casts, not just one. It doesn't stack up, and it won't unless its single-target damage or damage bonus is increased.

Alternately you could do what we did, which is take only the bonus damage gained by buffing LvB or FS with UE (do not include the base damage of FS or LvB themselves, since that would be present anyways), add it to the single-target damage of Unleash Flame, and compare that to a LB cast. Even factoring things in like DPCT, a LB is better.

#23 Torrential

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:14 PM

If you're not hit capped, gem and enchant for it first, then follow the rules above. If you absolutely have to, reforge crit to Spirit to reach the hit cap.


Is this really a good idea? This tells people it would be better to use a 40 spirit gem in a blue slot rather than 20 Int/20 SPI instead of reforging crit to spirit. Trading INT away instead of trading crit away doesn't seem like a good idea. Or in the case of a wrist enchant trading away 65 Haste to get 50 hit. Enchants/Gems are just not the place to trade away stats to meet your hit requirements as far as I can tell. What you trade away out values what you get.

I have found that with the excel solver function it is almost always possible to land exactly on the spirit/hit mark you need to be at 17.00% when reforging. Much of the time by only letting it hack away at my crit to get there. It seems to me that gemming/enchanting following the stat rules then letting reforging hit the exact mark you need is a better way to go about things. By nailing the mark you're not wasting any budget on a 0-value stat (ie spirit/hit over the cap) and you're not trading away INT/SP to get your hit.

#24 masanbol

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 05:33 PM

You're absolutely right. That portion of the rules was intended for 4.0.1 when reforging was our only source of mastery, so it's out of date. I'll update it momentarily.

#25 WildWolfy

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 07:21 PM

I've read this article and there's a bunch of great topics and information.

The only thing I didn’t see mentioned was enchants.

So basically I would like to talk about our level 85 "raid worthy" enchants. Please note: This also assumes your hit capped.

This is how I see it, and please let me know your thoughts.

[TABLE]
Head:
Shoulders:
Cloak:
Chest:
Bracer:
Gloves:
Legs:
Boots:
Ring: Enchant Ring - Intellect
Weapon:
Shield:
[/TABLE]

Here’s a list of enchants to use on your greens/blues before you start getting epics worthy of “big money” enchants.

[TABLE]
Head:
Shoulders:
Cloak:
Chest:
Bracer:
Gloves:
Legs:
Boots:
Ring: Enchant Ring - Intellect
Weapon:
Shield:
[/TABLE]

#26 chill1

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 07:33 PM

The 100 int to offhand enchant works on shields.

#27 Torrential

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 07:48 PM

Might want to mention for reforging that as hybrids we get the nice ability to reforge to hit even if an item already has hit. If an item has spirit/crit we can reforge to hit and if it has hit/crit we can reforge to spirit. Opens up more options.

#28 Jessamy

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 08:08 PM

The greater and lesser shoulder enchants cost the same. So as soon as you're exalted with Therazane, there's no reason to ever use the lesser lodestone.

#29 Sharkweek

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:09 PM

I'm sure most people have figured this out by now, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyways. If you're freaking out about mana when you first start running 85 dungeons, don't worry too much. Lightning Bolt costs 6% of base mana (which stays constant), while Rolling Thunder procs return 2% of maximum mana (which is based on gear). This means that once 2% of your maximum mana exceeds 6% of base mana you'll start seeing a return on Rolling Thunder procs. You'll still see a net decrease in mana until 2% of your max mana makes up for non-Rolling Thunder procs, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, etc, but it gets a little better at that point.

There are a few other things that affect our mana regen, such as clearcasting or free Lightning Bolts from Elemental Overload proccing Rolling Thunder, but max mana seems to be the biggest factor. After I hit the point where I was getting back more from Rolling Thunder than my Lightning Bolt costs I stopped being perpetually out of mana in instances.

#30 Chandro

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 07:27 PM

So, am I to understand Chain Lightning is completely out of our single-target dps rotations? I always thought that its shorter cast time made it slightly better than LB, even despite that its chance to overload is a third of that of LB, and I thought the decrease to its cooldown would make it an even more advantageous tool.

#31 Drovix

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 03:24 AM

So, am I to understand Chain Lightning is completely out of our single-target dps rotations? I always thought that its shorter cast time made it slightly better than LB, even despite that its chance to overload is a third of that of LB, and I thought the decrease to its cooldown would make it an even more advantageous tool.


The LB coefficient is higher Chain Lightning's making it better for single target DPS. I find myself leaning toward Chain if there are more than 1 boss/mob side by side for any period of time, because the bounce damage and additional Fulmination charges are outright more damage than just LB on one mob.

#32 Rahdik

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 05:58 AM

In Wrath we used Chain Lightning on single targets earlier in the tiers because it was just plain better than Lightning Bolt but it scaled worse than Lightning Bolt so by the time we got to T10 (some T9) it was used less (removed completely when the cast time was below 1 sec). It was always used for the 2nd charge of Clearcast after a Lava Burst or when you knew you had to move and couldn't get off a Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst was on cooldown. It also fit in nicely with the Lava Burst cooldown, you didn't have to wait an extra .5 sec for your Lightning Bolt to finish so you could get off your next Lava Burst.

Lava Surge reduces the benefit CL had with fitting in between LvB cooldowns, and with the new queue system it may actually cost you DPS. The reduced cooldown on CL itself would mean more usage which means more mana spent and CL has always been less mana efficient than Lightning Bolt even under Clearcast. Spiritwalker's Grace and Fulmination make for better spells to cast while moving so CL is less useful in those situations.

Right now, CL only has it's place when there are multiple targets, not only because the damage itself outweighs the damage of Lightning Bolt and the mana cost, but also because of increased Rolling Thunder procs of the mana return and the LS charges.

#33 Corny22385

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 10:16 PM

If you only have 3 or 4 shield charges and you have a fresh glyphed flame shock on a target, is it better to earth shock or do another flame shock in the event you have to move?

#34 Nidhoggr

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 03:42 PM

After seeing posts in the Resto thread about following Unleash Life with a casted heal into a queued riptide and getting the bonus healing on the heal, the riptide and the riptide hot I was wondering if Unleash Flame would work the same way with UF -> LvB -> FS granting the damage bonus to the lava burst as well as the FS impact and dot.

Here's a couple short logs from casting at a dummy for a couple minutes.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The first one is just FS and LvB with FT on my MH to get base damage. The Second is UF -> LvB -> FS, nothing else changed.
LvB, FS and FS dot damage are all seeing the same % increase so it looks to be working.

#35 Jayded

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:17 AM

If you only have 3 or 4 shield charges and you have a fresh glyphed flame shock on a target, is it better to earth shock or do another flame shock in the event you have to move?


If your FS is fresh your shocks will be on cooldown anyway, cast UE. Else i'd say ES. Use the spreadsheet that was posted earlier in this thread.

#36 Kegsta

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:16 AM

What are peoples thoughts on the current meta situation, at first I went with chaotic using int in red, haste in yellow and spirit in blue, but looked up a few of the top dps shamans on world of logs and noticed them using the 54 int and 2% mana one so I gave it a go and re-gemmed everything to +40 int / 20 Int 20 Haste / 20 Int 20 hit and my damage seems a lot better as does my mana conservation.

As far as trinkets go, any with +int seem to be the best, while the hit ones look nice, you can easily reforge any crit items into hit, but you can't reforge into int.
and look to be a very nice combo for the next two weeks until

#37 biglew

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:04 PM

What is everyone thoughts towards using the spirit flask? I havent seen flasks mentioned yet, so i was wondering whether you guys thought keeping your gear at 300 rating (380 if your an alchemist) under the hit cap was a good idea? You also get the added benefit of reforging all your extra spirit on gear.

#38 diospadre

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 01:22 PM

That's not a benefit, you'd be trading intellect for haste or mastery.

#39 Cheesenips

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 06:54 PM

[quote name='masanbol']The choice of FS over Flametongue has to do with making it easier to deal with the shock 9cooldown. If the interaction of those spells isn't a problem for you, you can always use a different glyph.[/QUOTE]
*** Edited, for authoring while drinking too much eggnog. Thanks Binkenstein! ***

Hard coded timers scale dps in haste brakets, right?

The base timer on FS is 18 seconds, with glyph (+9) it is 27 seconds.

Example (drawing on) Riptide with glyph:
Flameshock duration with glyph: 27 sec
[Table]# of Ticks |Time between ticks needed |Haste needed |Rating needed |Haste needed assuming WoA |Rating needed assuming WoA
9 ticks|N/A|0% Haste|N/A|N/A|N/A
10 ticks|2.7963 sec|7.2846% Haste|239 Rating|2.1758% Haste|72 Rating
11 ticks|2.4677 sec|21.5707% Haste|708 Rating|15.7816% Haste|518 Rating
12 ticks|2.2082 sec|35.8573% Haste|1176 Rating|29.3879% Haste|964 Rating
13 ticks|1.9981 sec|50.1426% Haste|1645 Rating|42.993% Haste|1410 Rating
14 ticks|1.8245 sec|64.4286% Haste|2113 Rating|56.5987% Haste|1856 Rating
15 ticks|1.6787 sec|78.7097% Haste|2581 Rating|70.1997% Haste|2302 Rating[/Table]
Credit: Philondra, Resto Shaman Forums

When considering alternatives to the shock ticks, do we need to consider the break in the haste gap? That is, if we are in the middle of 1410 - 1855 haste rating do we compare the 2% crit to 13 ticks of flame shock?

The unglyphed version would appear similar to:
Flameshock duration: 18 sec
[Table]# of Ticks |Time between ticks needed |Haste needed |Rating needed |Haste needed assuming WoA |Rating needed assuming WoA
6 ticks|N/A|0% haste|N/A|N/A|N/A
7 ticks|2.6608 sec|12.748% Haste|418 Rating|7.3791% Haste|242 Rating
8 ticks|2.1779 sec|37.7474% Haste|1238 Rating|31.188% Haste|1023 Rating
9 ticks|1.8433 sec|62.7516% Haste|2058 Rating|55.0015% Haste|1804 Rating
10 ticks|1.5979 sec|87.7464% Haste|2878 Rating|78.8806% Haste|2587 Rating[/Table][/QUOTE]

#40 Kiklion

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 02:37 PM

This is incorrect because you're missing that UE consumes a GCD on it's own, as does LvB, so if you want to use the logic you just did, you would have to compare UE + LvB to two LB casts, not just one. It doesn't stack up, and it won't unless its single-target damage or damage bonus is increased.

Alternately you could do what we did, which is take only the bonus damage gained by buffing LvB or FS with UE (do not include the base damage of FS or LvB themselves, since that would be present anyways), add it to the single-target damage of Unleash Flame, and compare that to a LB cast. Even factoring things in like DPCT, a LB is better.


There is one time when UE is useful beyond when on the move. If Flameshock is about to need to be refreshed, using UE on both the LvB and FS makes it worth it. Just using my numbers, UE does 3974 damage, LB does 7488 damage. I am going to ignore Lightning overload + Feedback here, assuming the .44 seconds saved (using my haste values without wrath of air 1550 haste rating, 12.1% haste) will equate the damage lost from not being able to proc those two. So the extra damage from FS + LvB needs to be greater than 3514.


My LvB crits for a min of 17.5k. My flameshock does 2073 + 12033 (glyphed) damage, so 31,606 damage total. Increased by 30% nets you 9,481.8 damage.

Obviously it is a small subset of the times when UE is up that it would be useful in a no-moving fight, but to say it isn't worth it ever I believe is incorrect.




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