Jump to content


Photo

[Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
352 replies to this topic

#41 diospadre

diospadre

    Hero of the Horde

  • Guild Members
  • 7,465 posts

Posted 27 December 2010 - 01:34 AM

I might not be understanding you, but UE only applies to your next fire spell, so you would only get the bonus on flame shock in your scenario, not both FS and LvB.

#42 Suno

Suno

    Never challenge the throne.

  • Guild Members
  • 665 posts

Posted 27 December 2010 - 02:04 AM

Nidhoggr's post indicates that, much like Unleash Life and Riptide, UE can affect both FS and LvB with a single cast.

#43 diospadre

diospadre

    Hero of the Horde

  • Guild Members
  • 7,465 posts

Posted 27 December 2010 - 03:31 AM

Yeah turns out I'm dumb and managed to skip some posts.

#44 masanbol

masanbol

    Space Goats Coast to Coast

  •  Patrons
  • 659 posts

Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:14 PM

There is one time when UE is useful beyond when on the move. If Flameshock is about to need to be refreshed, using UE on both the LvB and FS makes it worth it. Just using my numbers, UE does 3974 damage, LB does 7488 damage. I am going to ignore Lightning overload + Feedback here, assuming the .44 seconds saved (using my haste values without wrath of air 1550 haste rating, 12.1% haste) will equate the damage lost from not being able to proc those two. So the extra damage from FS + LvB needs to be greater than 3514.


My LvB crits for a min of 17.5k. My flameshock does 2073 + 12033 (glyphed) damage, so 31,606 damage total. Increased by 30% nets you 9,481.8 damage.

Obviously it is a small subset of the times when UE is up that it would be useful in a no-moving fight, but to say it isn't worth it ever I believe is incorrect.


After going over this I think I can safely say that it's still not all that practical to use UE in a "regular rotation" or spell priority, mainly because of the narrow circumstances under which this would actually work and be a DPS increase. Since you have to cast LvB before FS in order for both spells to benefit from Unleash Flame, the FS DoT would have to already be on the target when LvB is cast to guarantee an LvB crit (or the whole exercise is pointless, missing an LvB crit would negate any DPS gain and then some). That suggests that you're clipping FS, which reduces the amount of damage you're going to gain from the boosted spell by an amount equal to the number of ticks you clip.

This means that in order for it to be a DPS increase over an LB, you would need to take the 20% extra damage from LvB and FS, subtract the total damage from the number of ticks you clip when casting FS, and compare that to a single LB, taking into account things like Overloads and Rolling Thunder shield procs. I think it could be a slight DPS increase when used just as FS is ending (i.e. clipping only a single tick of the DoT), but it still wouldn't really fit in our spell priority.

#45 Kiklion

Kiklion

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 148 posts

Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:31 AM

After going over this I think I can safely say that it's still not all that practical to use UE in a "regular rotation" or spell priority, mainly because of the narrow circumstances under which this would actually work and be a DPS increase. Since you have to cast LvB before FS in order for both spells to benefit from Unleash Flame, the FS DoT would have to already be on the target when LvB is cast to guarantee an LvB crit (or the whole exercise is pointless, missing an LvB crit would negate any DPS gain and then some). That suggests that you're clipping FS, which reduces the amount of damage you're going to gain from the boosted spell by an amount equal to the number of ticks you clip.

This means that in order for it to be a DPS increase over an LB, you would need to take the 20% extra damage from LvB and FS, subtract the total damage from the number of ticks you clip when casting FS, and compare that to a single LB, taking into account things like Overloads and Rolling Thunder shield procs. I think it could be a slight DPS increase when used just as FS is ending (i.e. clipping only a single tick of the DoT), but it still wouldn't really fit in our spell priority.


It's 30%, not 20 if you have Elemental Weapons

I agree completely that it is not consistent enough to be part of a priority system, more of, "After you have the priority system down, if these stars happen to align you can pull out a bit more dps by doing x. If you are still learning the priority system, this could be a dps loss and should be avoided."

Also, in my testing, any time you refresh the Flame Shock debuff (clip it) it adds an extra tick on to the next one. Every time I cast Flame Shock on a blank target it would tick 11 times, if I clipped a previous Flame Shock it would tick 12 times. Now I am not sure of the exact mechanics at work here, if it adds the time between ticks to the new flame shocks duration, or if it adds the time remaining until next tick from the previous FS onto the front end of the next. If it's the latter then you don't lose anything assuming you let the UE FS tick to it's end. (also that extra tick hits for the UE'd amount, so the UE would affect the LvB + FS + 1 tick FS)

So, assuming the latter clipping effect, it would be

.3 LvB + .3 directFS + .3 * 1.09 tickFS + UE damage + (LB Cast time - instant cast time) * avgDPS
vs
(1 + (masteryProc * .75)) * LB + (.6 +(masteryProc * .6))*LScharge


Using my numbers w/ Flametongue weapon, no totems it nets me 450 dmg + (LB Cast time - instant cast time) * avgDPS

Parts to consider further:
1. UE uses up Clearcasting but cannot proc it, so the FS will never get the Clear Casting 10% bonus.
2. How do stats affect the comparison? (I was testing with 6494 spell damage, 14.28% haste, 17.96% crit, 15.1 mastery) Obviously mastery will skew it torwards not using UE, but due to the DPCT of FS I think int would skew it back. Haste/crit not sure.
3. Mastery Procs do not factor in the original damage at all. Not sure if this is documented, but I believe it simply fires off a second spell with a new number from it's damage range and a .75 modifier.

My main concern is how various stats affect this comparison. Say it only generates an extra 4k damage over 27 seconds; if you pull it off correctly now. Once you are in 359+ gear does it generate more of a dps increase?


Other thoughts about UE, say a boss silences, you use UE during the silence, afterwards LvB is available, do you refresh the FS with the UE as well? Only if less then x ticks left on FS? It should at least be mentioned that UE is usable while silenced.

#46 stuffrules

stuffrules

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 28 December 2010 - 08:27 AM

I don't think I read this on any of the above posts and haven't seen this discussed elsewhere.

On multi-target pulls, is it beneficial to flame shock alternate targets so you have multiple flame shocks up for increased lava surge proc chances? It's certainly fun to get lava surge spam, but the loss of globals makes me wonder if I'm gimping myself or not.

#47 PDXMarcos

PDXMarcos

    ME

  • Allied Members
  • 4,689 posts

Posted 28 December 2010 - 03:35 PM

I don't think I read this on any of the above posts and haven't seen this discussed elsewhere.

On multi-target pulls, is it beneficial to flame shock alternate targets so you have multiple flame shocks up for increased lava surge proc chances? It's certainly fun to get lava surge spam, but the loss of globals makes me wonder if I'm gimping myself or not.

This is a really a question of whether it's more important to have higher individual DPS versus lower single target damage. You are trading GCDs to put damage where it doesn't necessarily need to be instead of focusing on burning the primary target. It's the same situation as phase 1 DPS of warriors/rets/DKs on Heroic Lich King in Wrath if they went with their AOE heavy rotation instead of focusing on their single target. This would artificially inflate their DPS on damage meters but their individual damage on HLK would be much lower than their potential.

From the fights with adds I have seen in cataclysm so far, there hasn’t been a good situation where adding a flame shock DOT to another target is going to help the raid overall. Regardless, the viability of multi-target flame shock has been decreased with the removal of the talent Booming Echoes. Additionally, you may be hurting your DPS through the opportunity cost of using the shock cooldown for an additional flame shock instead of for a fulmination proc.

#48 Guest_Ammanas_*

Guest_Ammanas_*
  • Guests

Posted 28 December 2010 - 09:21 PM

I think its worth it to multi-flame shock but only in situations where the DPS on the second target isn't meaningless.

In the current tier some examples where I use it:
Council P1 and P2
Nef P2
Valiona and Theralon
Al'akir P2
Wyrmbreaker

In all of those situations you're flame shock is on something thats actually useful. As far as I know, a full duration flame shock is more damage per global than a lightning bolt. Plus you get the increased lava surge procs.

With FS glyph its not that hard to keep it up on two targets without interfering with fulmination as long as you pay attention to your shock CD and shield charges.

There are some other fights where you could do it but the second target is pretty much meaningless DPS so its not worth doing. Something like Maloriak's adds.

#49 base_o

base_o

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:33 AM

I can't find Ghostcrawler's post, but with Cataclysm and the DoT changes they made, you won't clip your DoTs anymore. Essentially if you recast a DoT before it runs out, the time you clipped will be added to the end of your new one. Obviously this doesn't work for full duration or even half duration DoTs, but if you have say one tick (maybe 2?) left on your FS it will be added on to the fresh one.

I did some brief testing on the dummies, and it is indeed true that you can cast FS right after a LvB and both will benefit from the UE. The UE buff is not removed from you until a spell lands, so it's entirely possible to cast FS while LvB travels.

How applicable is this? I don't really know, since I'm not sure how often that situation can be set up while turreting, but I just wanted to mention that it is indeed possible.

#50 Taurmenothe

Taurmenothe

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:15 AM

Is it going to be worth it to reach the melee hit cap with just hit, and then going to the spell hit cap with spirit? I was under the impression that this would be good for your GFE melee swings, similar to a moonkins treants.

#51 Grennan

Grennan

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 30 December 2010 - 08:37 PM

You leave out a few cases that you might want to cover:

For the rules of reforging, there are items (trinkets, pvp gear) that have only one secondary stat. This makes reforging mastery to haste a possibility.

For spell priority, searing totem expires in boss fights, so recasting it should probably be included in your FCFS priority list.

#52 chickalina

chickalina

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:12 AM

So in looking at our parse from the first five bosses in 25 man bastion of twilight, mastery contributed to 13.75 percent of my damage with 14 mastery rating. This equates to a little less than one percent per point of mastery. Compared to one percent of haste which scales with every attack we have except ES/Fulmination, which is only about 6-7 percent of our damage, mastery is 50 percent more expensive or worth roughly two-thirds of haste. In fact, more calc is necessary, but i am not convinced that mastery is that much more valuable than crit, particulalrly given the fact that mastery may have scaling issues.

#53 Finnober

Finnober

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 31 December 2010 - 02:11 AM

In BiS-gear :

spirit/hit:6++ dps/pp
int:2.83 dps/pp
haste:1.37 dps/pp
mastery:1.200 dps/pp
crit:0,93 dps/pp

According to my calculations with SimC, over a 500 seconds patchwerk fight.

priority list:
1. cds
2. searingtotem/fire elemental
3.Fs
4.Lvb
5.Fulmi
6.Lb
7.thunderstorm

I'm not 100% sure if its accurate, but you can see the tendencies.

It's the SimC-BiSgear and I'm not sure if it's really "BiS".
The heart of Ignacious seems to be pretty good compared to the others, I tested the non-heroversion for a while at cho'gall and came to the conclusion that it takes below 3 secs to stack it to 5. In addition you can stack it while the hastebuff is active ( not like the heal version ).

According to this mastery is more valueable than crit but not as good as haste.

#54 Taurmenothe

Taurmenothe

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 01 January 2011 - 04:47 AM

The thing you have to consider about crit, and why it is so weak, is that it doesn't affect the damage done by lava burst at all. (or lava burst overloads). On my parses, lava burst (and lava burst overloads) account from usually 20%-25% of my total damage done. Not affecting 25% of your total damage is what does crit in as a secondary stat.

Also someone mentioned that haste doesn't affect fulm, which i think isn't true. More haste = more lb casts per fight = more chances for lightning shield charges = more chances for effective fulminates. The same can be said about mastery.

#55 josemite

josemite

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 01 January 2011 - 10:14 PM

From my testing, as best I can tell overload procs can't proc anything, including clearcasting and fulminate. Not sure on trinkets though, but I imagine they wouldn't proc if the other things don't.

#56 PDXMarcos

PDXMarcos

    ME

  • Allied Members
  • 4,689 posts

Posted 02 January 2011 - 02:27 AM

From my testing, as best I can tell overload procs can't proc anything, including clearcasting and fulminate. Not sure on trinkets though, but I imagine they wouldn't proc if the other things don't.


I have seen quite a few chain lightning overload (mastery and talent) take my lightning shield from three charges to fulmination 9 stacks as well as proc rolling thunder mama regen. What is your method of testing?

#57 josemite

josemite

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 02 January 2011 - 06:21 AM

I have seen quite a few chain lightning overload (mastery and talent) take my lightning shield from three charges to fulmination 9 stacks as well as proc rolling thunder mama regen. What is your method of testing?


That was based on casting lightning bolts on a target dummy (the level 85 one with 1 hp, which may have made a difference) for about 5 min, only saw fulmination procs off the first damage. Though it is possible the fulmination procs for overload trigger at the time of the cast, and I just didn't see any double procs, which would have been about a 15% chance? That being said, based on the simulator I whipped up, with my current gear and assuming overload can't proc anything I still had mastery being mildly worse than haste

#58 Taurmenothe

Taurmenothe

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 02 January 2011 - 08:02 PM

I can confirm this. I did a test of 50 lightning bolt overloads. Singular lvl 85 target dummy. Refreshing lightning shield back to 3 between casts. Max distance to observe each lightning bolt and lightning bolt overload individually. No fulminate or clearcast procs off of the overload. There is the possiblity that I just got really unlucky, but 0/50 does not seem like the stated 60% proc rate is likely. Tried also with chain lightning to confirm, however, due to it's instant travel time, it was much harder to determine what caused what. I did 50 overloads with that as well, and I never got up to 5 stacks on lightning shield. This isn't as conclusive, but still points towards overloads not procing charges or mana. Posting in bug forums as possible tooltip or proc issue.

#59 DomBomb1

DomBomb1

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 03 January 2011 - 06:53 AM

After going over this I think I can safely say that it's still not all that practical to use UE in a "regular rotation" or spell priority, mainly because of the narrow circumstances under which this would actually work and be a DPS increase. Since you have to cast LvB before FS in order for both spells to benefit from Unleash Flame, the FS DoT would have to already be on the target when LvB is cast to guarantee an LvB crit (or the whole exercise is pointless, missing an LvB crit would negate any DPS gain and then some). That suggests that you're clipping FS, which reduces the amount of damage you're going to gain from the boosted spell by an amount equal to the number of ticks you clip.

This means that in order for it to be a DPS increase over an LB, you would need to take the 20% extra damage from LvB and FS, subtract the total damage from the number of ticks you clip when casting FS, and compare that to a single LB, taking into account things like Overloads and Rolling Thunder shield procs. I think it could be a slight DPS increase when used just as FS is ending (i.e. clipping only a single tick of the DoT), but it still wouldn't really fit in our spell priority.


Recasting flame shock while the dot has less than one tick remaining does NOT clip the dot like it would have in the past. Instead, the new dot gets an extra tick from the one leftover tick. You only get to keep one extra tick though - if you recast it earlier you lose any additional "clipped" ticks.

However, this gives you a VERY narrow window to cast UE, cast lava burst + flame shock, and have the flame shock land with one tick remaining. It won't even happen often, and you might give up potential lava surge procs if you delay lava burst to try to cast UE with this kinda timing.

#60 dulche

dulche

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 04 January 2011 - 06:55 PM

All these discussions about UE are missing a pretty central point, there are practically no "stand still and dps" fights in raids right now. With that said, unless you have SWG up, which will often not be the case due to the long CD, UE is very effective while moving. So even if there are special circumstances under which it would be a dps gain in your rotation, you're risking having it on CD when you have to move, which over the course of most fights will be damage loss. Casting anything while moving beats the hell of having nothing to cast.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users