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Hunter Simple Questions / Simple Answers: Cataclysm Edition


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#341 Nooska

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:20 PM

And to follow up on Whitefysts repsonse, since you specifically mention BM, you want to do HM, then BW before KC and SrS.

#342 Fincher

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:04 PM

Are you sure?HM Tooltip says it gives Ranged attack power so I didn't think the pet also benefits of HM.

Also, it gives a Set amount of Attax Power while Serpent Sting gives 10% which i believe is very much for when close to BiS in all Items and fully epic Gemmed. Serpent Sting also starts ticking faster if I start with it.

But if you still say HM is better even after this I will change the Rotation.

#343 Whitefyst

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:49 PM

Are you sure?HM Tooltip says it gives Ranged attack power so I didn't think the pet also benefits of HM.

Also, it gives a Set amount of Attax Power while Serpent Sting gives 10% which i believe is very much for when close to BiS in all Items and fully epic Gemmed. Serpent Sting also starts ticking faster if I start with it.

But if you still say HM is better even after this I will change the Rotation.


Our pets inherit from our ranged AP for their AP.

If you can Serpent Sting instead of HM first, Serpent Sting does not start ticking faster, it only ticks 1 GCD sooner. Thus, the only thing you lose by the 1 GCD delay in Serpent Sting is a 33% change to lose the last tick of Serpent Sting depending on where in the 3s Serpent Sting cycle the fight stops.

If you cast HM first, then Serpent Sting does more damage right away due to that extra AP instead of waiting until it gets refreshed/recast to that higher AP if you reversed the order.

Regardless of whether you do HM-SrS-then start the rotation or SrS-HM-start the rotation, Serpent Sting is still on the target before you cast any other damage ability (except maybe one autoshot - but it may be hitting the target anyway before the SrS debuff is up for the extra damage). However, the Serpent Sting damage bonus only affects our ranged attacks; hence, if you do Serpent Sting first then HM, your pet's initial attacks will be at lower damage (unless it was in the process of running to the target).

Either way, in the grand scheme of things, it really does not matter which you cast first, but casting HM first works out slightly better from my math.

#344 Nooska

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:46 AM

Are you sure?HM Tooltip says it gives Ranged attack power so I didn't think the pet also benefits of HM.

Also, it gives a Set amount of Attax Power while Serpent Sting gives 10% which i believe is very much for when close to BiS in all Items and fully epic Gemmed. Serpent Sting also starts ticking faster if I start with it.

But if you still say HM is better even after this I will change the Rotation.


HM is better, Whitefyst has gone into it on SrS, though SrS should be pushed 2 gcds more as BM: [HM, BW, KC, SrS] for 4 reasons.
First is that you want BW up first to get the damage bonus to run for the entire duration (untill refresh) of your first SrS. Second you want to keep KC on as tight a cycle as you possibly can. Third SrS doesn't increase a BM's damage (apart from its own contribution), and fourthly, if you apply SrS before BW or KC, you will have to reapply it, since it runs out before you run out of focus for KC and AS and hitting a CoS - it does not if you keep it tight and push it those 2 gcds.

#345 Nevyr

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:19 PM

Is there a particular pet I should be leveling with or is it purely a personal preference pre-85.

#346 bookworm911

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:05 AM

Is there a particular pet I should be leveling with or is it purely a personal preference pre-85.

Personal preference, although I would suggest a Cat as their special buff is the Agi/Str buff like Battle Shout or Horn of Winter.

#347 Fincher

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:46 PM

Is there a particular pet I should be leveling with or is it purely a personal preference pre-85.


If you level over Quests purely Cat does indeed slightly more DPS but if you also use dungeon finder, there may be warriors and Deathknights who apply that buff and you may also have a Wolf or a Wind Serpent in addition to your Cat to gain more Buffs.
If you are Questing, you may want to have a Turtle or Beetle with you because then you can solo the quests where a Party is recommended.




Also I have a Question: Does Tailoring have a better Perk for BM Hunters than a random +80 Profession? Here is what I collected so far: Swordguard Embroidery procs 1300 AP for 15seconds with ICD of 55sec, and if we are generous we say that it takes 5sec to proc again after the ICD is over, thus it gives 1300 AP for 15sec every minute, or 325 permanent AP. So is 325 permanent AP better than permanent 80 Agility and 65 crit?
Apart from that, Shadowguard embroidery should do slightly more damage because, at least for the first proc, you can combine it with Rapid Fire and also it does more Damage than it's Average if the fight does not end exactly when it has cooled down.

#348 Whitefyst

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:13 PM

Does Tailoring have a better Perk for BM Hunters than a random +80 Profession? Here is what I collected so far: Swordguard Embroidery procs 1300 AP for 15seconds with ICD of 55sec, and if we are generous we say that it takes 5sec to proc again after the ICD is over, thus it gives 1300 AP for 15sec every minute, or 325 permanent AP. So is 325 permanent AP better than permanent 80 Agility and 65 crit?
Apart from that, Shadowguard embroidery should do slightly more damage because, at least for the first proc, you can combine it with Rapid Fire and also it does more Damage than it's Average if the fight does not end exactly when it has cooled down.


80 agility is 88 agility with the 10% buff from the mail bonus and the stat buff.

88 agility is 176 AP directly and 193.6 AP with the 10% AP buff. Hence, it is short about 131 AP.

However, the 88 agility is also worth 0.271% crit or the equivalent of about 49 crit rating.

Then you need to account for the 65 crit you lose by replacing the cloak enchant, which is 114 crit rating.

Since crit rating is valued much more for BM than AP, the tailoring enchant loses out on straight averages. FD shows it as an about 150 DPS loss for my character.

However, there are other factors, some of which you mentioned already, such as where the following line up with the tailor buff procs versus constant agi:
- Culling of the Herd
- Call of the Wild (since you can control when it occurs you can stack it on top of the tailor buff)
- Trinket procs

Hence, the tailor buff can be superior when it is lined up with other procs for huge bursts, especially at the start of fights with RF, CoW, trinket procs, etc. However, the gain is not much on average but does help on certain fights.

#349 Nooska

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:59 PM

2 things

1) BM get an additional 30% ap bonus, so the 80 agility is 251.5 AP for a BM.
2) Since you should be using the Agi cloak enchant, you won't be losing 65 crit rating, but 22 agi, or 69 AP
That means you loose a total of 320.5 constant RAP for 325 averaged AP (swordguard only procs 1k ap, not 1300 - and assuming that your assumed 1 minute ICD is correct) - remember that there is a difference between AP and RAP - swordguard increases your AP, not your RAP.

Also, AP is still worth more than crit for BM, its just not listed in the priority list as we don't have any options for enchanting AP, except on the legs, where there isn't an alternative.

Edit: changed the calculations as Fincher correctly pointed out I was using the old animal Handler value of 25%.

#350 Fincher

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:21 PM

2 things

1) BM get an additional 25% ap bonus, so the 80 agility is 242 AP for a BM.
2) (swordguard only procs 1k ap, not 1300 - and assuming that your assumed 1 minute ICD is correct) - remember that there is a difference between AP and RAP - swordguard increases your AP, not your RAP.

Also, AP is still worth more than crit for BM, its just not listed in the priority list as we don't have any options for enchanting AP, except on the legs, where there isn't an alternative.


1)The Animal Handler Grants 30% Bonus to Attack power.
2) amplified by the AP Bonus, Swordguard Embroidery pros for 130% * 1000 = 1300.

About what you Said tto AP, WoWWiki states: "1 AP = 1 Ranged Attack Power (RAP). Unless an item or effect specifically says "+__ to Melee Attack Power" or "+__ to Ranged Attack Power" then this is true." This makes Sense because the BM Perk, Animal Handler, increases Attack Power and would be absolutely useless if it wouldn't also affect Ranged Attack Power. I used to switch between BM and MM back in the Day and noticed that Arcane Shots hit harder in BM spec.





Anyways I think I'll level Tailor for the PErk instead Alchemy, because the Fights are either very Short so the Proc comes more into effect than it's average OR in the Long fights, Spine (Wduring rolls where you deterrence anyway) or Madness (Druing PLatform Jumps) there are phases where the Internal cooldown can work for you, and hence Tailoring is Superior in Terms of DPS. So my Simple Question of this Post is if there is a Flaw in any of what I said above ^^

When lv90 is Available in Beta, hopefully I can provide you all with more Answers rather than the heap of Questions you are undergoing currently

#351 Nooska

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:03 PM

As I was editing my above post I noticed that you listed the Swordguard AP as permanent, while it is decidedly not so - just a nota bene.
As to your latest question, yes there is a flaw in what you are saying about the ICD working for you - since its a proc you have no control over when it procs, and it is more likely to proc outside the burn phase than when you need it - while stops in dps will let you output more edps in the dps phases due to not triggering a proc during the stops and the ICD running during them regardless of when you last procced, that does not translate to useful damage.
I'll liken it to keeping dots rolling on mob A and B, where A is the focus target and B either heals to full when A is killed or outheals the damage from the few dots on it - it definately increases your dps, but the damage done is "fake".
Increased damage done to the tentacles or slimes on spine, for instance, doesnt actually help get the encounter down faster (if it does, the issue is most likely something else).

#352 rmlunsford

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:15 PM

I hope this is the right forum to post this in, most of the other class forums list WOL reviews under simple question simple answer so I'm going with that. I am working on the dps of my guild in general, but my toon is the hunter Senórita in this log link. Any advice as to things I'm doing wrong would be greatly appreciated.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#353 Nooska

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:37 PM

We haven't had a lot of WOL reviews, and I'm a bit rusty on using WOL, but I'll do my best from what I remember of how to work WOL. If WOL reviews become a thing I imaginge it would be better for us to make a WOL thread for it specifically.

I've decided to look at the Ultraxion kill, as that is the most reasonable fight to check whether you are doing what you should basically. The first thing I look at is HM, SrS and BA uptime. SrS is up 97.1% of the time - this is a bit on the low side with HM having a 99% uptime, a further check tells me that your start of the fight is; HM, ExS, BA, SrS. You want to switch your SrS up after HM, as it increases damage done by 10 % (Noxious Stings (Rank 2)).
Next, personally I would fire off BA before ExS, because BA has no CD reset, so the more delay at the start, the less ticks ou will have over the fight, and the fewer chances for LnL procs.
On the subject of BA, you have an uptime of 73.3 %, the best possible uptime would be 90.9 % with the pvp gloves, barring them the uptime target is 83.3 %, so you may need to pay more attention to getting BA off (and possibly saving focus for it) - however, the discrepancy (88% of target uptime) could be due to having to pop out of the twilight realm, and thus delaying your BA - however, checking up, this is not the case in this log, and the casts are delayed from 1.5 seconds (acceptable) and up to 6 seconds ("unacceptable") - this is assuming you do not use the pvp gloves.
Looking at the number of shots you fired of each, it looks reasonable (without going over every action in the fight), though CoS looks a bit low, while also looking at the delay of BA (I'm guessing focus is probably the issue, so a few too many AS, and a few too few CoS).

All in all, it doesn't look bad, with some areas of improvement (notably starting sequence and BA uptime)

#354 Rivkah

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:01 PM

I was going to note that it looks like the hunter's pet never cast rabid on Ultraxion. Then I looked at my own logs and realized my pet hasn't been casting it on Ultraxion either. This is especially odd as I've had a /cast rabid in my shot macros for a long time (since we realized there were issues with autocasting rabid early this expansion).

It looks like pets are casting it on other bosses just fine, but not Ultraxion for some reason. I even looked at a few top damage logs for Ultraxion and couldn't find it in any of them either. I'll try manually hitting the button when we do it this week to see if it'll cast that way but it looks pretty bugged. I expect it's too late in the expansion to see a fix to it, but I thought folks should be aware of the issue.

Also just a note, Ultraxion logs are some of the best to check for dps comparison, but are sometimes hard to analyze properly for shot frequencies and such as the popping in and out of the twilight realm will screw up the data you get in the log (unless the hunter themselves created the log).

#355 Nooska

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:44 AM

As Zeherah has an excellent point on the logging on ultraxion, I justw ant to ask rmlunsford whether I am correct in my assumption that you logged the fight yourself? I assumed so due to the uptimes of HM and SrS being where I would expect when looking at the starting sequence, if not, then some of my conclusions may be based on skewed data.

#356 pichuca

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

Today while talking with a friend about MoP and kill command range change, he told me about a "bug" which allows you to kill command from great dinstances in live servers. It works the following way: you have a target where you pet is in, and you target another enemy and KC, and the pet KC´s the new target even while being at 40+ yards.

I´ve tried to reproduce it myself but I simply couldn´t, the pet would act as expected and reach the minimun range before KC'ing. But duelling he could just attack my pet, which was like 40 yards away from me, and just target me and KC me from that distance.

Does anyone know something about this?




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