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[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior


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#21 Pinnick

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:30 PM

I'm a little confused. What is your recommended rotation for engaging a group of trash mobs?

Let's assume we can charge in. I'm assuming you don't suggest rending first, before even a shield slam?

What I've been doing is:

Charge --> Shield Slam --> Rend --> Thunderclap --> Shockwave --> Revenge and other stuff

Is that right?

In randoms, I've been having trouble with that rotation because it seems the DPS have started in and AOEing before I get to my first AOE (third global cooldown, thunderclap). [which may be an adjustment all DPS are going to have to make...]


I don't think starting with SS is a bad idea. I prefer working this rotation so the DPS can focus on the first kill target. Opening w/ SS instead of just rend on the first kill target allows you to have a bit higher lead on that first target. Specifically on the trash mobs and such, I too had the same issues.

Regardless of our rotation in heroics especially, DPS has to get out of the AOE mindset. It's sucking healer mana and just making things a bit tough for us to do our job.

#22 MADMark

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:58 PM

Yes, that's the obvious problem, but I think part of the problem might be our own, how WE now define an AoE pull. I think what you're talking about, in regard to the viability of SS, is a small group (3 to 4 elites) not true AoE. Yes, it contains more than one mob, but they should be single targeted down. In that case, I totally agree with you, but in case of something with 10-20 non-elites, I don't think SS is appropriate. In other words, if the DPS SHOULD be using Blizzard/RoF, skip it, but if they should be focusing on one at a time, the only thing you should have to overcome on the other targets is the healer hate and the splash damage (living bomb and what not), which shouldn't be a problem with fairly stand standard ST rotation (TC, Revenge, etc. but Cleave instead of HS)

... it just begs to be repeatedly reported, over and over, as though reporting a post could somehow be analogous to stabbing someone in the face with a knife forged out of their own concentrated stupid.


#23 Deathwing

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 05:26 PM

I don't see SS in the OP for AoE, probably because it effects only one target. If you don't have 2 GCDs, its a DPS problem, not a tanking problem.

Remember, Cleave is a GCD now too, not a on-next-swing, so I wouldn't put it that high on the list of priorities.


Cleave is NOT a GCD now.

I usually open Charge&Heroic Throw -> TClap&Cleave -> Shockwave -> Demo Shout -> Rend -> TClap.

If the dps can't stay on the target I marked/threw my weapon at, that's their fault, they get agro. Stuff hits too hard to wait two GCD to start applying AE threat. They'll be going after the healer very quickly.

#24 cidninja

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:32 PM

I'm a little confused. What is your recommended rotation for engaging a group of trash mobs?

Let's assume we can charge in. I'm assuming you don't suggest rending first, before even a shield slam?

What I've been doing is:

Charge --> Shield Slam --> Rend --> Thunderclap --> Shockwave --> Revenge and other stuff

Is that right?

In randoms, I've been having trouble with that rotation because it seems the DPS have started in and AOEing before I get to my first AOE (third global cooldown, thunderclap). [which may be an adjustment all DPS are going to have to make...]


Since we're throwing in opinions, here's how I've been doing it.

Charge > Shockwave > Rend > Thunderclap > cleave, thunderclap, revenge, etc liberally

The Shockwave keeps them stunned so they don't get pulled away before your Blood and Thunder, and then the next Shockwave cooldown just about lines up with your 3 stacks of Thunderstruck, if you use it. That's what I was doing for all the normal 5mans, but now that I'm doing heroics CC is more useful and AoEing everything is less useful of course.

#25 ComMcNeil

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 10:34 AM

I am not quite sure I agree with the sentiment that mastery is better than dodge or parry.

Basically, ~179 mastery rating is required for 1 point of mastery ( = 1.5% block, 1.5% crit block), ~176 dodge/parry rating is required for 1% of dodge or parry respectivly. Dodge/Parry do negate the complete damage, mastery only reduces it by either 30% or 60%. I did some napkin math about this, but even if mastery would grant you 1.5% increase on a block which would theoretically yield 60% dmg reduce (instead of a CHANCE to get you 60% instead of 30%), it still would not be more of a dmg reduce than straight avoidance. And since many many fights now stress the mana bar of the healers, I think not getting any damage (and maybe giving the healers more time to top of the raid) is better there.

If I am completely mistaken, please enlighten me on this, but so far, I reforge every bit of mastery on my gear to avoidance.

#26 illusive_2008

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 10:49 AM

Guess it depends on how you look at it because if you block you gain rage, with talents. If you avoid all damage expect spells would you have enough rage to be a solid tank with just weapon damage? Think we have always been meant to balance incoming damage and of course while dodge as well as parry are great to avoid damage. We still need to have a strong balance of all three stats I feel.

Honestly do not recall but is the hit table still working that it rolls for: Miss -> Block -> Dodge -> Parry? Overall dodge and parry are also avoidance and block is mitigation it is not really classified as avoidance for most people.

#27 Xav

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:51 PM

The idea behind having a very high amount of mastery (and thus block %) is to have full coverage, and guarantee you have a permanent 30% damage reduction, at minimum, vs melee swings (the bulk of all damage nearly all bosses do). The easiest tanks to heal are those that take steady damage, not those that take spiky damage. Even if the spiky damage tank is taking say less than half of the overall damage (compared to a 'steady' tank), it can be more difficult to heal because of the wide variance in swing damage.

#28 Deathwing

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:21 PM

Xav, I talked with my guildmate that works at Blizzard, he confirmed that taunt resist has been removed. Which is by far the best change of the expac. I wonder how much we have to care about threat stats now, beyond maybe soft capping expertise.

#29 Otori

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:38 PM

I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2
Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2
Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5
Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:
Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.

#30 Xav

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:12 PM

I disagree with you simply due to the fact that there are bosses in 25 player raids, normal difficulty, that can 3 shot a tank - and some bursts upwards of 100-150k damage.

#31 ComMcNeil

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:17 PM

Regarding lost rage on avoided swings instead of blocked ones, I for one can say, that threat wise, this does absolutely not matter in any way for a single target boss. After about 20 secs into the fight, there is no chance to loose aggro ever again if all goes well...and even then, one should focus more on direct aggro stats than on mastery for extra rage. (Expertise comes to mind as imho the best stat for aggro until softcap)

I would also agree that there must be some kind of threshold, where pure avoid stat ratings are getting weaker than mastery, simply because afaik mastery does not have any diminishing returns in comparison to the avoid stats dodge and parry.

#32 Deathwing

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:39 PM

I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.


Simply not true. I know they SAID that would happen, but it just didn't. And I'm sure healers are loving them for it.

Also, as Xav said, even if the tank isn't taking a lot of damage, a tank taking predictable damage allows the healer to heal elsewhere, or even move a healer off the tank. Spikey tank still might take two healers, even if lower damage overall.

I'll admit I haven't done the numbers either, and I don't know how much avoidance 5400 combined is. But the fact that mastery doesn't diminish should make it the clear best investment. Especially since once we max out regular block, we're already halfway to making everything critical block too.

EDIT: no one is saying completely eschew avoidance. In fact, you should specifically look for pieces with avoidance/mastery(especially now that we know taunt can't miss) on them to help fill out the table. I'd be willing to bet that in the course of maxing out mastery to fill the attack table, you incidentally reach that point in avoidance where mastery become better anyway.

#33 illusive_2008

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:02 PM

So for the total avoidance number should I be taking my percentage of the following (Dodge * 176.71)+(Parry * 176.71)+(Mastery * 179.3) to get my total avoidance number? When I got near 6400 score I only took mastery my armory showed that was over the base you start with and got roughly 4747, but not sure if that is correct so I am asking to double check my math on the matter.

#34 Xiaolinmonk

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:36 PM

I have a few quick questions about Tanking Stats.

What would be our Soft Cap and Hard Caps for Tanking Heroic's and the first set of T11 Dungeons?
Maybe another way to put it what should we be looking to shoot for anyways.

Hit Soft Cap:
Hit Hard Cap:

Expertise Soft Cap:
Expertise Hard Cap:

Block %:

Crit Block %:

For the two Blocks I understand here you pretty much just want the highest number possible though I was courious to see what everyone was looking to shoot for during Heroics and T11 Content (To start out with).

Thank for the replies/help in advance!

#35 Aurarian

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:52 PM

I have a few quick questions about Tanking Stats.

What would be our Soft Cap and Hard Caps for Tanking Heroic's and the first set of T11 Dungeons?
Maybe another way to put it what should we be looking to shoot for anyways.

Hit Soft Cap:
Hit Hard Cap:

Expertise Soft Cap:
Expertise Hard Cap:

Block %:

Crit Block %:

For the two Blocks I understand here you pretty much just want the highest number possible though I was courious to see what everyone was looking to shoot for during Heroics and T11 Content (To start out with).

Thank for the replies/help in advance!


I have 25 expertise and according to the pane it says that against a raid boss I have a .25% chance to be dodged so I believe it's still 26 for the soft cap which would mean that I'm already capped for heroics I believe. As of this time I have almost 43% block however I still have a couple of items below 333(that aren't reforged or enchanted for mastery) so I'm imagining someone with 346 might have 46-47% or even more if you reforge for mastery mostly. For hit, I'd assume it'd be around 6-8%. My warrior has only 1.88% and it says I have a 4.12% chance to miss on 87 mobs so I guess around that. Hope that helps you.

#36 Riot

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:12 PM

I wanted to ask a few questions first is it worth reforging for threat stats such as expertise and hit . currently i reforged pretty much all my dodge and a lil bit of my parry to get expertise soft cap and pretty closeto the hit soft cap. the only thing about this is that my avoidance got kinda gimped 9.55% dodge 12.14% parry i havent reforged anything to mastery just yet because i wanted to get my threat stats up so my single target threat gem would just be monster. so my block chance is 41.69% only being 14.16 mastery. heres a link to my armoryCencen @ Frostwolf - World of Warcraft i wanna see if maybe i could get some insight from other sources. and dont judge my spec lol im gonna be using the single target threat deepwounds spec when the servers come up. thanx in advance for your help

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Don't sign your posts.

Expertise and hit are stats that help you maintain and smooth out your threat. They're really good for some encounters. Right now though in heroics, I'd make sure you focus on mitigation and survival as people continue getting geared. The longer you can survive/less damage you take can mitigate a lack of gear elsewhere somewhat. Same for raiding. Go in with a mindset of "I want to survive for as long as possible".

Edit: Also, has anyone noticed a rare item that's farmable for tanking? Wowhead lists a gun called Thundercall, but it looks like it's not enabled. There's also a BOE gun in raids, but it's a little disappointing that there's no ranged weapon to purchase via JP or such.
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#37 Garganchewin

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:36 PM

In regard to the Mastery/Parry/Dodge discussion. I think we can all agree that Dodge is the clear loser, since it doesn't really benefit from talents like Parry does. That being said, if we focus solely on maxing avoidance/mitigation, there will be a clear (but unknown as far as I know) balance between parry and dodge where the DR of a higher stacked parry stat will negate the crit block bonus from Hold The Line.

Comparing Mastery directly with Parry is a bit more interesting. I haven't been able to test this yet because of a lack of higher parry gear, but I think that all things being equal, an ideal stat distribution might involve softcapping Parry to get a high uptime of Hold the Line, and then reforging the surplus parry into mastery. It seems to me that the synergy of a near permanent 10% crit/crit-block with high mastery rating might be incredibly significant both for our TPS and mitigation.

I'll try to look into what kind of stats would require this uptime, or if parry chance + hold the line is just point for point not as good as mastery. If it is its clearly a moot point, but I think it will be an interesting dynamic for us as the gear gets better to have these 2 stats both contributing to critical block %.

I personally have reforged to mastery and expertise for the smoothing of burst and threat. That's one thing that I really like about mastery, not sure if it's been mentioned. Unlike dodge and parry, it will still build vengeance for you. It's very nice to be mitigating a large chunk of damage while still building your tps and dps.

#38 Booi

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:38 PM

I've been playing with Impending Victory a bit. The concession is that threat talents are lackluster with the current implementation of vengeance, and that the last 20% of a boss can often be the roughest.

On a slow hitting boss like Atramedes, Blood Craze ends up being pretty useless... we know that.
But look at VR spam sub 20%:
Posted Image

Self heals are not game-breaking, i only did 9.8% of the healing on myself over the course of the fight.
But VR was 51.2% of that healing.

Assuming that the last 20% of the boss lasted 20% of the fight. (Sounds redundant - it's not)
~5% of all incoming heals sub 20% are from non VR self-heals.

Now VR covering 51.2% of my heals is 5% of my total incoming heals over the course of the fight.
But, VR is 25.01% of all healing to me sub 20%

Which means when a boss is under 20% potentially 30% of all incoming heals are self heals.
Has anyone else been mucking around with this? When the other options are threat talents, can we justify not taking IV?

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#39 Pinnick

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:51 PM

I've been playing with Impending Victory a bit. The concession is that threat talents are lackluster with the current implementation of vengeance, and that the last 20% of a boss can often be the roughest.

On a slow hitting boss like Atramedes, Blood Craze ends up being pretty useless... we know that.
But look at VR spam sub 20%:
Posted Image

Self heals are not game-breaking, i only did 9.8% of the healing on myself over the course of the fight.
But VR was 51.2% of that healing.

Assuming that the last 20% of the boss lasted 20% of the fight. (Sounds redundant - it's not)
~5% of all incoming heals sub 20% are from non VR self-heals.

Now VR covering 51.2% of my heals is 5% of my total incoming heals over the course of the fight.
But, VR is 25.01% of all healing to me sub 20%

Which means when a boss is under 20% potentially 30% of all incoming heals are self heals.
Has anyone else been mucking around with this? When the other options are threat talents, can we justify not taking IV?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis


Very interesting stats regarding VR. I've found on numerous fights w/ adds that due to BnT and increase TC dmg I've had VR pop and I've used it to successfully keep myself alive.

Last night actually, on the first boss (rock worm) in Hero Stonecore, our healer went down while the boss was about 20%, so I used SW then LS/ER to heal myself once I was low to survive till next burrow phase. Once the burrow phase began I was actually able to self heal up to 75% via the trogs which spawn by using VR. Once the boss came back up I continued to heal from the additional adds and the extra time allowed for the DPS to finish him off.

The impressive thing about VR is that I did this and I'm not even specc'd for it. I can only imagine how awesome it is to use during that last 20% and/or this same type of situation. Considering that healers are learning to heal all over again while we're all gearing up I have to say it's very tempting to at least try out.

#40 Vistana

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 03:35 AM

Very interesting stats regarding VR. I've found on numerous fights w/ adds that due to BnT and increase TC dmg I've had VR pop and I've used it to successfully keep myself alive.

Last night actually, on the first boss (rock worm) in Hero Stonecore, our healer went down while the boss was about 20%, so I used SW then LS/ER to heal myself once I was low to survive till next burrow phase. Once the burrow phase began I was actually able to self heal up to 75% via the trogs which spawn by using VR. Once the boss came back up I continued to heal from the additional adds and the extra time allowed for the DPS to finish him off.

The impressive thing about VR is that I did this and I'm not even specc'd for it. I can only imagine how awesome it is to use during that last 20% and/or this same type of situation. Considering that healers are learning to heal all over again while we're all gearing up I have to say it's very tempting to at least try out.


The only real use I see for Impending Victory after testing a bit myself in raids/dungeons is only WHEN the healer goes down, which in a raid shouldn't be happening. So from my point of view, the talent is almost useless as I barely Devastate a target unless it's to refresh sunders. With an overflow of rage on raid bosses, Heroic Strike/Shield Slam/Revenge are my top priorities damage wise, + Rend ticks more than Devastate and by refreshing Rend with Thunderclap once every 15 seconds (with Blood and Thunder), means I can Shockwave for 10% more, which is higher than Devastate damage. (This is testing with 3 sunders. And for the purposes of my test, I wasn't testing threat values, purely damage on the Raiding Test Dummy. But again, Devastate is proving to be lower threat-wise than most of the above.)




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