Jump to content


Photo

Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
783 replies to this topic

#21 Kolenzo

Kolenzo

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:15 AM

Pretty sure yes. I haven't paid a ton of attention to how that works but assuming you just add together the damage of Flamestrike and Blast Wave that would easily annihilate our single target dps rotation, timers and all. Assuming you get the dot ticks, anyway. Might even be one target, although there's some additional "cast time" to consider from the targeting reticule so probably not. I don't have Blast Wave in magegraf for some reason but I'll add it.


Keep in mind that you need two mobs to actually activate the free flamestrike, unless you were referring to proccing it on two and then having one die straight away and only getting the dot on a single target.

#22 Mcpepsi

Mcpepsi

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:46 PM

The new technique Fire mages employ is Scorch Weaving, whilst using Molten Armor, in conjunction with the Improved Scorch talent. Scorch Weaving refers to casting Scorch frequently in your rotation with Fireball. Scorch is free to cast. Think of Fireball as a high damage, yet unsustainable nuke. Scorch is a lower damage, yet infinetely sustainable nuke. If you get Scorch Weaving balance right - you'll make your mana last a long time and avoid going OOM - and still be able to deliver competitive DPS. If you get the balance wrong, by casting too many Fireballs, you'll go OOM too early - and need to cast excessive Scorches afterwards while you regain mana, reducing DPS.



This is completly false.

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.

I suggest that the statment is rewritten.

#23 nostie

nostie

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

This is completly false.

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.

I suggest that the statment is rewritten.


The idea is that you should hover at the amount of mana that you would burn through from 35% boss health to zero.

Whether you scorch every other fireball or fireball five times, then scorch five times doesn't make a difference, but it does make a difference that you have enough mana to continually cast fireball while you have buffs such as Molten Fury up.

I agree that it should be rewritten, but only to include why that's desirable, and explaining that you don't need to weave scorches, you just need to hover at a certain % mana (that you know you'll burn through by the end of the boss by spamming fireball)

#24 Naqaj

Naqaj

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:08 PM

This is completly false.

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.

I suggest that the statment is rewritten.


If you oom at the beginning of the fight, you won't have the mana to spam your main nuke during execute phase, trinket procs, or boss vulnerability phases. For those times, it is advisable to keep your mana up to some degree so you can switch to short term nuke spam.

The statement is fine, if a bit short.

#25 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:24 PM

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.


It's different because, simply put, the latter is better in the grand scheme of things.

Now's a good time to really talk about why, so thankyou for the feedback and we'll try to make it clearer to everyone as a result.

It's the way the comment is being interpreted, but the intent behind it is correct. Perhaps "Scorch Weaving" isn't really the best word to describe it. Scorch weaving (in the OP context) simply refers to casting Scorch (with Fireball) during a fight, and not mindlessly spamming Fireball like in WOTLK. The snapshot is a raid encounter. Whether you cast 50 fireball in succession, then 50 scorches - or 1 fireball and 2 scorch repeating - you're still weaving Scorch into what you do.

The notion that you should just cast 50 fireballs then 50 scorches in this style, however, is inaccurate - and dare I say it, a bad behaviour trap to fall into.

Many raid fights simply won't let you stay stationary enough to attempt this. Some have heavy AOE periods (magmaw) where you're forced to spend your mana to AOE heavily, and won't have the luxory of something like this. Some have constant, extensive movement - where casting still to Firebal till OOM is simply not a practical option. Some have 'boss weakened phases' where you dont want to be OOM and casting Scorch, just after a 50 fireball spam phase. Some bosses (Omnitron Council) have +% damage void zones, which spawn at times beyond your control - and you want to be able to cast Fireball ideally while in them.

In short, specific encounters will force you using a ratio to various degrees, whether people like it or not.

You could indeed try the 50 cast thing on "Patchwerk style fights" like Argaloth, though their an exception, many other encounters will prohibit it to various degrees. While it's possible to play like this, it most likely will come back to bite players if that's all they know how to do - because there are simply too many encounters where a ratio style is needed (enforced by encounter mechanics) and people will need to be familiar with it.

I'll try to reword that section to better include the aforementioned points later tonight.

Edit - here's the reworded version.

Fire Mages in Cataclysm need to manage their mana carefully. Gone are the level 80 days where mana was irrelevant. Attempting to cast chain cast Fireballs will result in you running OOM around ~3-4 minutes into an encounter. You simply can't do it anymore.

Fire mages now manage their mana by extensively using Scorch during encounters. Molten Armor is used, and the Improved Scorch talent is essential. Think of Fireball as a high damage, yet unsustainable nuke. Scorch is a lower damage, yet infinetely sustainable nuke. If you cast too many Fireballs, you'll go OOM early. If you cast too many Scorches, you'll be doing less DPS (Fireball is superior DPS).

Somewhere between these two extremes you need to find the balance for a given encounter. If you get the balance right - you'll make your mana the necessary duration and avoid going OOM - and still deliver maximum DPS.

Player instincts might initially be to "Cast chain Fireball until OOM" then "Cast chain Scorch to regen". Then alternate nicely between the two. While this might be possible in specific scenarios, it's not practical (nor possible) for many others. Encounter mechanics will enforce you to adopt a mix-and-match casting Scorch and Fireball more frequently. You might need to move a lot, and simply can't stand still for long periods. You might have adds which spawn suddenly, which need to be nuked down immediately with your best DPS rotation. A boss might put put up a buff, at unpredictable times, and you'll need to be ready to spend ~4k mana to Spellsteal it at any moment. You simply cant plan around having the perfect rotation, so the solution is to mix Fireball and Scorch together when casting.

Mixing Fireball and Scorch together frequently can result in a rotation such as 2 Fireballs to every 5 Scorches cast, or similar. This style of play is referred to as "Scorch Weaving".

Scorch Weaving is optimal because it allows your mana to hover at a specific %. This is known as your Mana Reserve. You can then use your Mana Reserve to cast heavy (unsustainable) Fireball rotations for key periods. Examples where you'll want a Mana Reserve available for use at a specific time are:

- Boss Weakened Phases.
- Powerful On-Use or passive Trinket procs. Engineering Glove Tinker.
- Molten Fury range on bosses
- When you spellsteal a powerful buff ability from Bosses
- Encounter Specific +% damage mechanics. Example: Void Zones and Acid Clouds on Omnitron Council spawn and give you increased damage / damage done. When they spawn will vary between attempts, so you can't plan your rotation out perfectly in advance. You need to have a Mana Reserve on standby, ready for use on demand.

For the above reasons, many Mages will use Scorch Weaving on every encounter, once they have enough experience and practise at doing it. They are attempting to ensure their mana reserves always hover at a healthy percentage, ready for periods when Fire spam is optimal.

Remember that any leftover mana at the end of an encounter is effectively wasted DPS. Like an Arcane mage, you want to try to time your mana (with Fireball as your burn throttle) to run out just as an encounter ends.

There are two other ways you can attempt to approach mana at 85. Neither of these are optimal from a DPS standpoint, but we'll note them here for the sake of thoroughness:

1 - Don't use Fireball at all. Only cast Scorch in rotation. Despite sounding like a ridiculous thing to do, it could actually provide up to ~90% of the DPS your normal Fireball/Scorch rotation would ordinarily deliver. Surprised at how strong it is? The big reason is Hot Streak: Scorch is a fast casting spell, and casting it more often means you get many more opportunities for Hot Streak Procs. Those Pyroblasts are big DPS. Ultimately, attempting this style of play will be a DPS loss, even if not quite as big as you might initially suspect.

2 - Use Mage Armor. Using Mage Armor makes mana largely trivial again. However it comes with two key problems. Firstly, you lose DPS mobility. Firestarter allows Scorch to be cast while moving, when Molten Armor is active. There are many Cataclysm encounters where you need to move, and move often. Using Mage Armor will prevent you from DPS'ing effectively during these periods. Second: It's lower DPS. Simulations show that using Molten Armor (With Scorch Weaving) is simply put, the better thing to do. You can attempt to use Mage Armor, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.


While this ended up being longer than I expected, it's important we be thorough in this area: Mana Management is absolutely crucial for Fire Mages, and it needs to be explained such that everyone can understand the points easily and correctly.

#26 angayelle

angayelle

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 117 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:42 PM

I noticed this new feature last night, and it's pretty cool, but when there is actual AoE to do, then it tells me I'm refreshing even though I'm doing the LBs on different mobs. The Scorchio2 addon it's able to track separate LBs, maybe you can see how they do that and adjust CombustionHelper?


If you have the warning message then you are refreshing, my addon doesn't check guid of the mob because there is no need to do so :


if (spellId 
44457) and (event
"SPELL_AURA_REFRESH") and (comburefreshmode == true) then combulbrefresh = combulbrefresh + 1 print(format("|cffff0000 -- You refreshed your Living bomb on |cffffffff%s |cffff0000too early. --|r",destName)) end

the event SPELL_AURA_REFRESH only happens when there is an actual refresh, if there was no LB on the mob then SPELL_AURA_APPLIED would occur. Are you sure you're not seeing a refresh upon using impact ? Because then with no more than 3 targets, the previous LB would be reapplied by impact...

About showing which spell caused the ignite, it's just impossible to know that from ignite debuff. We can show if a spell have caused ignite but this is only but recording criticals, then calculating expected ignite damage. Note that i said "expected" because with ignite munching we have no way to know if the expected ignite is acutal ignite...

#27 Sinless

Sinless

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 201 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:37 AM

How does evocation fit in this picture? Is it better to burn through your mana, evocate and make sure you don't run out of mana until the next evocate ? Or shall we weave scorhes that we never have to evocate? This is a simple question for arcane but probably not so much for fire.

#28 Ektoplasme

Ektoplasme

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:18 AM

Based on the latest simulations from SimCraft, Evocation is a DPS gain.

With the priority list currently implemented in SimCraft, here is the timeline you get for a 5 minute Patchwerk fight:
1 - burn your mana until 38% (approx 1 minute)
2 - use Evocation to go back to 100%
3 - burn your mana again until around 40% (approx 1 minute)
4 - weave scorch and FB to stay around 40% mana
5 - when the time left before the kill is below 1 minute, you burn all your mana with FB
6 - you should be at 0% mana when the boss dies

Here is the output of SimCraft I used to write the above timeline. This was done using a BiS ilvl 372 Fire mage profile.

Simulationcraft Results

Pay attention to the mana timeline and actions priority list especially.

DO NOT pay attention to the numbers (DPS etc.). This output was done on a single iteration (this is the best if you want to analyse what happens during one kill), so is heavily RNG influenced.

If you are interested in DPS, DPET, uptime numbers, here is a version averaged on 10 000 runs:

Simulationcraft Results


I also did the computation with a blue geared mage (BiS pre-raid). The basic idea doesn't change much, but the burn phases are shorter (because less crits = less mana returned), so in step 5, you should replace "1 minute" by 40 seconds.

1 iteration fight: Simulationcraft Results
10 000 iterations fight: Simulationcraft Results

#29 elluminea

elluminea

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:59 AM

Since they changed Clearcasting to not consume free scorch and hot streak it allows us to react to the proc and use a fireball/living bomb/fire blast instead, remaining at a zero mana rotation while upping DPS. It used to amount to a flavorful 10% reduction in mana costs, subject to RNG, because you would never ever cancel a cast to care about casting a more expensive cast. Now, however, it can be an integral reactionary part of the conserve rotation; if you are in such a phase I suggest watching Clearcasting very carefully, setting up a power aura to let you know to weave your rotation a certain way. I have noticed a tremendous increase in mana efficiency over how it was on beta because I was eating my free spell proc using free spells.

#30 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:30 AM

timeline you get for a 5 minute Patchwerk fight:
1 - burn your mana until 38% (approx 1 minute)
2 - use Evocation to go back to 100%
3 - burn your mana again until around 40% (approx 1 minute)
4 - weave scorch and FB to stay around 40% mana
5 - when the time left before the kill is below 1 minute, you burn all your mana with FB
6 - you should be at 0% mana when the boss dies


That's a good timeline. People can learn to tweak that generic suggestion to suit the unique needs of each encounter. Some encounters will let you follow this like clockwork, while others will (by design) force you into hover rotations for various reasons.

Ill rewrite the Mana Management Section (again) to include all of this, but i'll name and note the different types of rotations as: 'Burn rotation' and 'Hover rotation' and 'OOM/Movement rotation'. The "Hover Rotation" is the one which involves Scorch Weaving to stabilise mana. "Burn Rotation" is Fireball spam, for maximum DPS during key periods (outlined several posts back). "OOM/Movement rotation" is cast whenever you're either out of mana - or forced into periods of unavoidable, extensive movement as dictated by unique encounter needs.

Another thing that also needs to be included in your list is Mana Gems on CD and Mana Pots. Fire Mages need to learn to think like an Arcane Mage: Mana is DPS.

Soak up as much mana as possible during a fight, never waste any (eg: not using max amount of mana gems every encounter, forgetting to use Evocation) - and use that mana to prolong "Burn Rotations" during key periods. And finally, make sure you burn all possible mana by the time the fight ends.

#31 Ektoplasme

Ektoplasme

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 12:23 PM

Yeah I didn't mention mana gems usage because after the first one, it's basically "use it on CD". But as you can see, mana gems are indeed included in the simulation.

So with mana gems included, the timeline you get for a 5 minutes fight is:
1 - burn your mana until you're 12500 mana short
2 - use first mana gem to go back to 100% mana
3 - burn phase until 38% mana (approx 1 minute)
4 - evocation to go back to 100% mana
5 - burn phase until around 40% (during this burn phase, you should be able to use your second mana gem when it comes off cooldown)
6 - hover around 40% mana with scorch and FB weaving. Use your 3rd mana gem when off cooldown.
7 - if the time to kill is lower than 1 minute, burn all the remaining mana with FB until the boss dies.

As you said, in a non patchwerk fight, the burn phase will last longer because you'll cast some scorches when you move. On a movement heavy fight, it's even possible you won't be able to burn all your mana (we're talking a LOT of movement here though, don't know if it's realistic).

#32 Baruk

Baruk

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 63 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

Based on the latest simulations from SimCraft, Evocation is a DPS gain.

Simulationcraft Results

Pay attention to the mana timeline and actions priority list especially.

DO NOT pay attention to the numbers (DPS etc.). This output was done on a single iteration (this is the best if you want to analyse what happens during one kill), so is heavily RNG influenced.

If you are interested in DPS, DPET, uptime numbers, here is a version averaged on 10 000 runs:

Simulationcraft Results


I also did the computation with a blue geared mage (BiS pre-raid). The basic idea doesn't change much, but the burn phases are shorter (because less crits = less mana returned), so in step 5, you should replace "1 minute" by 40 seconds.

1 iteration fight: Simulationcraft Results
10 000 iterations fight: Simulationcraft Results


Thanks for the results, they do however pose one question for me:
In the ilvl 372 results, the dmg breakdown from Pyro and LB are comparable, in the 346 results Lb has a larger dmg % than HS_Pyro. Moreover, the dmg of FB is larger as Pyro's in both cases. In light of these results, do we need to rethink the priority of the glyphs
MA>Pyro>FB>LB? I'm aware, that ignite is included separately, but this counts for LB as well as for Pyro. Especially when looking at the ilvl 346 results I wonder whether the LB glyph might actually be better than the Pyro glyph in entry lvl gear and we need to shift glyphs as gear progresses....
Per Aspera ad Astra

#33 takolin

takolin

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 01:31 PM

That's a good timeline. People can learn to tweak that generic suggestion to suit the unique needs of each encounter. Some encounters will let you follow this like clockwork, while others will (by design) force you into hover rotations for various reasons.

Ill rewrite the Mana Management Section (again) to include all of this, but i'll name and note the different types of rotations as: 'Burn rotation' and 'Hover rotation' and 'OOM/Movement rotation'. The "Hover Rotation" is the one which involves Scorch Weaving to stabilise mana. "Burn Rotation" is Fireball spam, for maximum DPS during key periods (outlined several posts back). "OOM/Movement rotation" is cast whenever you're either out of mana - or forced into periods of unavoidable, extensive movement as dictated by unique encounter needs.

Another thing that also needs to be included in your list is Mana Gems on CD and Mana Pots. Fire Mages need to learn to think like an Arcane Mage: Mana is DPS.

Soak up as much mana as possible during a fight, never waste any (eg: not using max amount of mana gems every encounter, forgetting to use Evocation) - and use that mana to prolong "Burn Rotations" during key periods. And finally, make sure you burn all possible mana by the time the fight ends.



What would be the best potion to use as we have 3 choices available?


-Mythical mana potion: 9250 - 10750 mana
-Volcanic potion: 1200 SP for 25 seconds
-Mysterious potion: 1-15000 mana and the minimum amount gained of mana scales with your alchemy skill.



A small note for Blood Elf mages: Don't forget about arcane torrent as it's another 6% mana on a 2 minute cooldown. You can macro it with your gem as they're both off the GCD and share the same cooldown.

#34 Zaldinar

Zaldinar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 336 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:33 PM

I'm putting this out there so other folks can try to make sense of it as well, this is a table of Pyroblast values as compared to combustion values at variant gear levels (Basically, putting one piece of my level 80 gear on at a time).

Spec for the test was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft level 80 caster against a level 80 target dummy, process was to cast a Pyroblast, let it tick once, ensure neither the DD or DoT was a crit, cast combustion, record tick values, debuff durations (via a simple macro), number of ticks observed, and a summary of stats on the character sheet.

[TABLE]SP |HA |HI |CR |MA |Pyro Tick DMG |Pyro Dur |Pyro Ticks |Combustion Tick DMG |Combustion Dur |Combustion Ticks
180 |0 (0) |0 (0) |0 (2.05) |0 (20.0) |319 |12 |4 |127 |10 |10
332 |72 (2.2) |64 (2.44) |20(3.22) |0 (20.0) |339 |11.744 |4 |134 |9.79 |10
403 |117 (3.57) |64 (2.44) |65 (4.63) |0 (20.0) |348 |11.588 |4 |137 |9.66 |10
552 |180(5.49) |64 (2.44) |151 (7.25) |0 (20.0) |367 |11.376 |4 |144 |10.428 |11
622 |248 (7.56) |64 (2.44) |196 (8.66) |0 (20.0) |376 |11.156 |4 |148 |10.23 |11
785 |248 (7.56) |128 (4.88) |276 (11.38) |0 (20.0) |418 |11.156 |4 |155 |10.23 |11
902 |298 (9.09) |128 (4.88) |318 (12.79) |0 (20.0) |434 |11 |4 |161 |10.087 |11
1654 |350 (10.67) |167 (6.37) |318 (12.79) |0 (20.0) |537 |10.844 |4 |195 |9.944 |11
1724 |400 (12.20) |167 (6.37) |369 (14.32) |0 (20.0) |546 |10.696 |4 |199 |9.801 |11
1764 |400 (12.20) |194 (7.40) |391 (15.04) |0 (20.0) |552 |10.696 |4 |201 |9.801 |11
1864 |400 (12.20) |194 (7.40) |391 (15.04) |0 (20.0) |566 |10.696 |4 |205 |9.801 |11
1966 |450 (13.72) |194 (7.40) |391 (15.04) |0 (20.0) |579 |13.19 |5 |210 |9.669 |11
2069 |450 (13.72) |194 (7.40) |444 (17.75) |0 (20.0) |593 |13.19 |5 |215 |9.669 |11
2148 |450 (13.72) |237 (9.03) |499 (19.43) |0 (20.0) |605 |13.19 |5 |219 |9.669 |11
2400 |450 (13.72) |237 (9.03) |597 (22.74) |0 (20.0) |639 |13.19 |5 |230 |9.669 |11
2511 |450 (13.72) |237 (9.03) |637 (24.27) |0 (20.0) |655 |13.19 |5 |236 |9.669 |11
2678 |450 (13.72) |309 (11.78) |717 (26.85) |0 (20.0) |676 |13.19 |5 |244 |9.669 |11[/TABLE]


Neither the linear difference between the individual ticks damage, nor their ratio stays constant. Likewise when their hasted DPS is taken into account. Or if it is considered to be a damage per DoT calculation assuming their base durations, etc etc. I'm still poking at it to see if I can figure it out, but extra eyes are definitely welcome.


Edit: Crit percentage value for 637 was off.

Here is another table of values for LB for a comparison. The two behave similarly, but not exactly the same. Spec for the LB test is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[TABLE]LB Tick |LB Dur |LB Ticks |Combustion Tick |Combustion Dur |Combustion Ticks
604 |12 |4 |239 |10 |10
658 |11.744 |4 |258 |9.79 |10
682 |11.588 |4 |267 |9.66 |10
735 |11.376 |4 |286 |10.428 |11
759 |11.156 |4 |294 |10.23 |11
857 |11.156 |4 |314 |10.23 |11
900 |11 |4 |329 |10.087 |11
1176 |10.844 |4 |423 |9.944 |11
1201 |10.696 |4 |432 |9.801 |11
1216 |10.696 |4 |437 |9.801 |11
1253 |10.696 |4 |449 |9.801 |11
1290 |13.19 |5 |462 |9.669 |11
1328 |13.19 |5 |475 |9.669 |11
1357 |13.19 |5 |484 |9.669 |11
1449 |13.19 |5 |516 |9.669 |11
1490 |13.19 |5 |530 |9.669 |11
1552 |13.19 |5 |551 |9.669 |11[/TABLE]
To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://zaldinar.wordpress.com/
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

#35 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:09 PM

Fire Mages in Cataclysm need to manage their mana carefully.

Failure to do this will result in going OOM early, often - and poor DPS performance. This section will go into thorough details on Mana Management. This is one of the most important parts of this post that readers need to come away with an understanding of.

Fireball is the high DPS nuke, yet unsustainable to cast for long periods of time. You'll OOM yourself after several minutes if you try, long before the encounter ends. Scorch can be cast indefinetely due to its free mana cost, but it's lower DPS. So you can't just cast Scorch forever either. So what do you do? The answer is: Use both. Somewhere between these two extremes you need to find the balance for a given encounter. If you get the balance right - you'll make your mana the necessary duration and avoid going OOM - and still deliver maximum DPS possible.

This is the basic idea: Get used to casting Scorch and Fireball. But there's a few finer details on how best to actually go about this. The differing Fire Mage rotations can be described as the following:

[table=head]Name|Notes
Burn Rotation|The Burn rotation refers to chain casting Fireball. This is our highest DPS rotation for single target, but is not sustainable for long. You want to use this rotation during Boss Weakened PhasesDuring powerful on-use or passive effects (Trinket Procs, Engineering Gloves, Tailoring Capes)Molten Fury rangeAfter Spellstealing powerful BuffsDuring Encounter-specific +damage mechanics (Eg: While standing in a friendly void-zone which gives you +100% damage for the duration)To burn off excess mana before an encounter ends|
Hover Rotation|This refers to the rotation used to keep mana levels hovering at a constant value. We call this our Mana Reserve. We use the Mana Reserve to switch into the Burn Rotation at the opportune time. A Hover Rotation makes extensive use of "Scorch Weaving". Scorch is cast frequently in rotation alongside Fireball. For example: 2 Fireballs to every 5 Scorches.
|
OOM Rotation|This is the rotation you can cast while completely OOM. Scorch and Pyroblast! on Hot Streak procs.
Movement Rotation|This is the rotation you can cast 100% while moving. Scorch, Pyroblast!, Living Bomb, Flamestrike, Blastwave.

To play like a Fire Mage, some good advice is to start thinking like an Arcane Mage. Mana is DPS. More Mana means more DPS. Unused Mana means wasted DPS.

With more mana is available, you can cast your Burn Rotation for longer and more frequently. This means we should be using every mana resource available. Use Mana Gems on cooldown. Use Evocation. Accept innervates from any friendly Druids. Every ounce of mana you get will let you cast your Burn Rotation a bit longer.

Your goal is to end each fight with exactly zero mana. Unused mana is wasted DPS - you should have started casting Fireball earlier to burn it off.

Readers might be thinking, "Can I just cast my Burn Rotation until i'm OOM, then use Scorch to regen to full again - then alternate between the two?" The answer is you can most certainly try this, but it's not possible nor optimal in many situations. Here are several scenarios which won't allow you to do this:

- Myriads of Encounter specific mechanics. (Running a debuff out, AOE'ing adds, running to stack up or spread out, jumping between platforms, avoiding obstacles, Boss weakened phases)
- Movement
- Adds may spawn, requiring Burn Rotation immediately (You don't want to be stuck on the Scorch regen side at the time)
- A Boss might apply a powerful spellstealable buff at random times. You want to have a Mana Reserve ready to immediately switch to Fireball.

Encounter mechanics will force you to constantly swap between Burn and Hover rotations. You cant plan around simply having the perfect rotation mapped out beforehand, which would only work on a "Patchwerk style fight". Lets walk through a Hypothetical 5 minute Patchwerk style fight. We'll try to map our Mana and Rotations out perfectly beforehand:

[table=head]Order|Notes
| Hypothetical example only: A 5 minute Patchwerk encounter with no adds, no movement, no trinkets worn, no glove/cape enchants, no weakened phases. Do not interpret the table below as anything other than a hyptothetical example for what would be an unrealistic set of conditions for an encounter.
|
1|Start the fight with a "Burn Rotation" until you're 12500 mana short
2|Use the first Mana Gem to go back to 100% mana
3|Continue the "Burn Rotation" until 35% mana (Approxinately 1.5 minutes)
4|Use Evocation to go back to 100% mana
5|Resume the "Burn Rotation" phase until around 35% again. Use the second Mana Gem as soon as off cooldown
6|Use the "Hover Rotation" via heavy Scorch Weaving to keep mana levels constant. Use your 3rd mana gem as soon as it's off cooldown to bring us up to 50% mana. (We're hovering at 50% mana to save up enough mana for the incoming Molten Fury Range, which we expect to last 1 minute).
7|As soon as the boss reaches Molten Fury range (35% health) switch back to the "Burn Rotation".
8|Boss dies exactly as we run OOM.

For our 5 minute fight, with all these unrealistic conditions attached, our strategy might work. But can we rely on doing this for the majority of encounters? No.

If this boss had a movement phase, adds that spawned, AOE that was required, a "Weakened Phase", and if we're using powerful On-use trinkets, glove/cape enchants - suddenly all our neat plans go out the window. Fire Mages need to react dynamically to the unique needs of each different encounter, and even to differing attempts on the same encounter. A static, pre-planned rotation must only be treated as a guide - be ready to deviate at any moment. Be ready to use the "Burn Rotation" for a specific opportune time, then ready to switch back to the "Hover Rotation" after. This will vary not only between different encounters, but even between different attempts on the same encounter.

There are two other ways you can attempt to approach mana at 85. Neither of these are optimal from a DPS standpoint, but we'll note them here for the sake of thoroughness:

[table=head]Technique|Notes
Don't use Fireball, only cast Scorch!|Despite sounding like a ridiculous thing to do, it could actually provide up to ~90% of the DPS your normal Fireball/Scorch rotation would ordinarily deliver. Surprised at how strong it is? The big reason is Hot Streak: Scorch is a fast casting spell, and casting it more often means you get many more opportunities for Hot Streak Procs. Those Pyroblasts are big DPS. Ultimately, attempting this style of play will be a DPS loss, even if not quite as big as you might initially suspect.
Use Mage Armor|Using Mage Armor makes mana issues largely trivial . However it comes with two key problems. Firstly, you lose DPS mobility. Firestarter allows Scorch to be cast while moving, when Molten Armor is active. There are many Cataclysm encounters where you need to move, and move often. Using Mage Armor will prevent you from DPS'ing effectively during these periods. Second: It's lower DPS. Simulations show that using Molten Armor (With Scorch Weaving) is simply put, the better thing to do. You can attempt to use Mage Armor, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.


Edit - Someone asked about using Mana Pot, Rejuv Pot and Volcanic potion. Which do we use? I don't know myself yet. Hopefully someone can chime in with more insight into the correct answer. I'll edit it in to this (which in turn will be edited back into the OP) as necessary.

I'm writing the aforementioned post in the style of a community resource which should be easily understood by everyone who visits EJ. Many players will come here with the very basic questions, "Im going OOM, help! What am I doing wrong?" and "How am I meant to be managing mana?" It sounds like a very noob question, but it needs to be answered carefully - as many Mages are essentially experiencing mana growing-pains currently. Controlling Mana like this was, for years, "an Arcane thing to do". And not really required for much of WOTLK at all anyway, even if you were Arcane. It's a very new concept to many players.

Let me know if there are any glaring ommissions - or inaccurate/wrong recommendations.

#36 Guest_afflic_*

Guest_afflic_*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:07 PM

After raiding last night and actually being in a raiding environment I have a few questions / comments.

Firstly, with glyphing. On almost every fight my Living Bomb was my 3rd or 2nd damaging spell, and it was even higher with any fight with adds. Therefore, why would I want to not glyph it. Pyroblast was only a ~10% of my damage throughout the night on different attempts where as Living Bomb was ~18%. I feel like buffing a spell by 3% damage that does 18% of my total damage is much better than buffing a spell's crit by 5% that's only ~10% of my damage. Yes, I can see how on a single target fight it's possible the Pyroblast is better, however there are only a few fight where you are really on one target at one time. I really, strongly feel like Living Bomb is a better choice, and thinking that it's a small part of our rotation is incorrect.

Any thoughts / comments / clear math to back up Pyroblast etc...

Secondly, with spell weaving. Does anyone have a clear "rotation" that they go by during the "maintain" phase? LB - FB - FB - Scorch till LB again / repeat?

Thanks.

#37 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:18 PM

Living Bomb Glyph


It does look likely the Living Bomb Glyph may need to be more accurately re-classified as Situationally Recommended, instead of "Skip". Pending the fight(s) you're doing. The OP was written for Glyphs with a single target scenario in mind only, which probably wasn't a good way to go about it. Several fights have AOE or multi-DOT potential: Maloriak, Halfus, Tron Council, Ascendant Council etc. Control/DPS on Magmaw's Parasitic adds is also (arguably) more important than DPS on the boss itself, so I could understand an argument for it on that fight too.

I believe Vontre mentioned the Molten Armor was by far the strongest, and thus is never swapped out under any scenario. Pyroblast was next strongest by a margin, with Fireball therefore being the leftover you'd consider swapping out for LB. The recommendation on Vontre's thread was to do this if "Living Bomb damage was double that of Fireball".

After someone clarifies this, we'll update the Glyphs section into the OP to account for whether Glyph Choices may change for specific AOE/multi-dot encounters.

#38 Guest_afflic_*

Guest_afflic_*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:36 PM

It does look likely the Living Bomb Glyph may need to be more accurately re-classified as Situationally Recommended, instead of "Skip". Pending the fight(s) you're doing. The OP was written for Glyphs with a single target scenario in mind only, which probably wasn't a good way to go about it. Several fights have AOE or multi-DOT potential: Maloriak, Halfus, Tron Council, Ascendant Council etc. Control/DPS on Magmaw's Parasitic adds is also (arguably) more important than DPS on the boss itself, so I could understand an argument for it on that fight too.

I believe Vontre mentioned the Molten Armor was by far the strongest, and thus is never swapped out under any scenario. Pyroblast was next strongest by a margin, with Fireball therefore being the leftover you'd consider swapping out for LB.

After someone clarifies this, we'll update the Glyphs section into the OP to account for whether Glyph Choices may change for specific AOE/multi-dot encounters.



...... how in the hell can a pyroblast glyph be better than fireball. you need to get fireball crits to even proc pyroblast - so by increasing your fireball crit you are increasing how many pyroblasts you are getting, by lowering your fireball crit you are essentially lowering the amounts of pyroblasts you proc anyways. There is no logical reason I would ever use pyroblast over fireball glyph wise. It just doesn't make any sense. I would LOVE to see a good argument for that, if there is one.

#39 Tyrian

Tyrian

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,376 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:40 PM

You don't really need to adopt that tone. There's other factors as well you're not accounting for. For example, on a fight where you make heavy use AOE (or a fight where you'll be extensively applying multiple LB) - you won't have so much mana available to cast Fireball or Burn Rotations as much. Therefore, you'll be casting more Scorches. What happens when you start casting lots of Scorches, because an encounter's AOE Needs mean you dont have much mana to cast Fireball? Hot Streaks and Pyroblasts go up considerably. You might, ironically, end up with more Pyroblasts cast - not less.

Wait until some of the more experienced theorycrafters chime in. What might make no sense to me or you, could probably be pretty easily explained by them.

#40 Guest_afflic_*

Guest_afflic_*
  • Guests

Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:44 PM

You don't really need to adopt that tone. There's other factors as well you're not accounting for. For example, on a fight where you make heavy use AOE (or a fight where you'll be extensively applying multiple LB) - you won't have so much mana available to cast Fireball or Burn Rotations as much. Therefore, you'll be casting more Scorches. What happens when you start casting lots of Scorches, because an encounter's AOE Needs mean you dont have much mana to cast Fireball? Hot Streaks and Pyroblasts are a bigger part of the picture.

Wait until some of the more experienced theorcrafters chime in. What might make no sense to me or you, could probably be pretty easily explained by them. And if not, they'll look for problems in logic/simulations.


It just doesn't make sense that the spell you want to use the most would be one of the glyphs you would drop. 5% crit on fireball results in better use of combustion - more pyros. I would love to see one theorycrafting behind this as you've said. Hopefully someone will chime in soon.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users