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Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium


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#41 Tyrian

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:00 PM

It just doesn't make sense


It makes perfect sense. On fights where Living Bomb increases in value (Either heavy AOE fights, or where you are applying LB to multiple mobs) - you have less mana to cast Fireball or Burn Rotations. It doesn't matter whether you want to use Fireball the most. We're governed by what our mana will allow us to do, within the unique needs and constraints of encounter requirements, not what we'd personally ideally like. The more we need to AOE or apply multiple LB, the less mana we'll have available for Fireball. One might assume this means we'll see less Hot Streaks. But given that less mana means we'll be Scorching more in Hover Rotations, we ironically could be actually seeing more.

Astute readers might be thinking "Just Impact LB". While that might seem true at first glance, Blastwave is the only super-efficient way to do it. If you're fishing for Impact procs with Flamestrike, you'll be expending a lot of mana. If you're fishing for Procs with Scorch, then you'll be getting more Hot Streaks (And Pyroblasts). And finally, some fights need to have mobs tanked separated - where Impact isn't an option anyway.

#42 Zaldinar

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:19 PM

It just doesn't make sense that the spell you want to use the most would be one of the glyphs you would drop. 5% crit on fireball results in better use of combustion - more pyros. I would love to see one theorycrafting behind this as you've said. Hopefully someone will chime in soon.


Makes perfect sense. MA glyph gives you crit on everything, so it contributes to your DPS and HS proc rate regardless of what spell you're casting.

LB can potentially make up a large amount of your damage potential, or a small amount, depending on how many targets are available to you at the time. Thus it situationally can trump other spells and thus the glyph may trump others depending on the situation.

Depending on how many Fireballs you're able to cast, it may make sense to use Pyroblast over Fireball for glyphs. It isn't necessarily the spell you use the most, that is highly dependent on your mana situation and what priority list you are executing depending on fight specific mechanics. If your damage done list looks something along the lines of Scorch > Pyroblast > Fireball > LB, then your glyphs should be MA / Pyro / FB. If it looks like Scorch > LB > Pyroblast > Fireball, then MA / LB / Pyro may be the right answer. What proportions would make those selections optimal are a bit complicated to describe however.


The long and short of it is that a TC tool can tell you whether the math works out in a theoretical setting, or log parses can tell you in a practical one whether or not the proportions would seem to support it in a given scenario. The base concept is perfectly sound however, and makes perfect sense.
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#43 Krovvy

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:32 PM

When should you use Combustion? Use it when Living Bomb and Ignite are on your target at the very least. The ideal Combustion however will have Living Bomb, Pyroblast (Dot), Frostfire Bolt DOT (only if FFB is your primary nuke) and a big Ignite from Pyroblast. However, at level 85 with lower crit ratings, it's much more difficult than level 80 to get this ideal scenario to occur. Sometimes it just won't happen for a long time, and you might not have the luxory of being able to wait.


Has anyone considered replacing Fireball with Pyroblast as the main nuke in your rotation when Combustion is up? I'm not going to attempt the math but it's much more likely to score a single, large Pyroblast crit than attempting to crit 3 times consecutively with Hot Streak (2x to trigger Hot Streak, 1x for the Pyroblast! Ignite).

If not for Hot Streak, it seems like Pyroblast would be a better choice as a main nuke with higher dps. I'm not taking mana into account, but 1291 - 1631 damage in a 3.5 second cast comes out to [(1291+1639)/2]/3.5 = 418.6 dps, compared to Fireball's 405.6 dps and that isn't even including Pyroblast's DoT component (which has an added bonus by providing more fire for Combustion). It seems then, that waiting to use Combustion until you score a crit Pyroblast! by spamming Fireball is a waste of Combustion's uptime when you could just spam Pyroblast with it's normal cast time until it crits.



Edit: corrected # of times to proc Hot Streak

#44 Zaldinar

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:31 PM

Has anyone considered replacing Fireball with Pyroblast as the main nuke in your rotation when Combustion is up? I'm not going to attempt the math but it's much more likely to score a single, large Pyroblast crit than attempting to crit 4 times consecutively with Hot Streak (3x to trigger Hot Streak, 1x for the Pyroblast! Ignite).


It has been considered yes, and can be done, it's just a gamble to do. You didn't show your work on your calculation for Fireballs DPS, but what you are neglecting is spell power coefficients and that you get more per cast time letting the Pyro DoT run than refreshing its duration over and over again.
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#45 Krovvy

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:42 PM

It has been considered yes, and can be done, it's just a gamble to do. You didn't show your work on your calculation for Fireballs DPS, but what you are neglecting is spell power coefficients and that you get more per cast time letting the Pyro DoT run than refreshing its duration over and over again.


I was calculating fireball the same as I did the pyroblast dps [(892+1136)/2]/2.5.

I purposely left out the Dot portion of Pyroblast since, if youre spamming it, youre not making much use of it (although I guess you would get at least 1 tick during the cast time of your next Pyro if the first one did not crit.). Even without the DoT portion, the dps is higher.

I did not realize spell power scaled differently for different spells, but either way, according to WoWWiki, Fireball has a 100% coefficient while Pyro's is 115%. This page may be out of date though...

#46 ripcurlksm

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:02 PM

With the crit nerf in Cata, HS procs are less frequent. I have begun pre-casting Pyroblast as the tank is about to pull for boss fights. That gives me Critical Mass, Pyroblast DOT from the start. Next I do a Living Bomb and by that time the GCD is ready, Pyroblast's DOT started its first tick and Ignite starts rolling. From here I pop Combustion, Mirror Images and start my FB nuke to 40%, evocate, etc.

I haven't experienced any threat issues because I am conservative and by the time the tank pulls, I have 2 seconds left on my cast. I am not trying to time my cast so I hit the same time as the tank pulls. But I see this method as if I am casting a Fire Ball, because I have already casted ~1-1.5 seconds off my Pyro. I also run with my guild which includes competent, aggressive tanks.

This method could also work well for multiple target pulls where AOE is appropriate and you want to DOT up a single target, Combustion, Blast Wave, Impact.

Has this been considered before to get your Combustion rolling asap?

#47 Axiothea

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:54 AM

Has anyone calculated what is the value of ”Impact” in boss encounters? The guide says that it is “Highly recommended. Impact (DOT spreading) is a strength of the Fire tree.” but in my experience this is vastly overrated. In latest SimulationCraft there isn’t any damage done via Fire Blast, which may be simulation limitation, but causes me to wonder should I skip the points there and put them instead into “Arcane Concentration” since currently mana is real problem for optimal dps. (I am aware that this may change when we get better gear and mana shortage is lesser concern)

PS: First post from long time forum lurker.

#48 Tyrian

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:01 AM

latest SimulationCraft there isn’t any damage done via Fire Blast,


It's modelling a single target rotation, where Fire Blast isn't used at all. For any fight with dot-spreading or AOE potential, Impact is very strong, but can be incredible when used in conjunction with Combustion.

You might be thinking, "But AOE / Multitarget is situational". True from one point of view. But pure single-target DPS encounters are situational now as well from another. It really depends on what you want to optimise the spec for, and whether you're prepared to respec between variants for a very minimal potential DPS gain. A gain well within the (large) variance Fire currently has.

Players have thought about having a mainspec "Single target Fire Spec" and an offspec "AOE Fire Spec". It's certainly something one can do, but many players will just recommend to have a Fire spec and a Frost OS for control when needed, given that the difference between the two Fire specs is almost trivial. Again, it comes back to player choices.

The value of Arcane Concentration was concluded to indeed be a single target DPS gain, but a very minor one at that. Around or less than 1%. Furthermore, the first point maje concluded was the most valuable - with the second and third being worth an even smaller fraction of that.

Off the top of my head, here are examples of several fights which either have AOE or Multidot potential to various degrees where Impact sees strong use, stronger than the ~1% AC could offer: Halfus, Magmaw, Omnitron Council, Maloriak, Conclave (Depending how you handle adds),

I'll also note that readers might be thinking, "Drop Cauterize!". My experience with this weeks worth of Cataclysm raiding reminded me why I (personally) consider this an essential talent. There are multiple fights where this talent can save you from frequent mechanics which can easily kill you, even if you personally are playing well. Other players will be responsible for key interrupts, for topping you up before incoming heavy damage etc - and it'd be foolish to think everyone else will always do their job perfectly too. Maybe someday during farm status we'll think differently, but certainly not now - and especially not during Heroics soon.

#49 KTBA

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:40 PM


Runspeed Enchant Get Runspeed to Boots, even though the enchant only provides an additional 35 Mastery Rating when non-runspeed 50 Hit variants are available. Movement is necessary in many Cataclysm encounters.


So my point is:

From DPS (not surival) side: Runspeed was always superior to other enchants, when we take in account, we are not doing DPS (in sense minimal amount of DPS) when we are in move and taking new position. In case of fire mage, we are doing 90% od damage (scorch rotation) of static rotation (fireball rotation) when running. I suppose this enchant need deeper analisys (how much time u must be on the move to make mastery-runspeed enchant superior to hit enchant.) (if I'm right, the better equipment u have, the hit enchantment will be worse) For more, we can just use this time as mana efficent time. (I'm not smart enough to take up the challenge to calculate this on numbers)

And from survival side, whe always have blink, and now some other tools to get out from sticky situation (for example molten shield).

I can't put a statement that 50 hit enchant is always better, but it should be reasonable alternative for most fights.

#50 Naqaj

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

edit: Tyrians point about void zones and buff is valid. Disregard this post.

#51 Tyrian

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:16 PM

I updated the Runspeed enchant part of the OP to include these points.

What it's ultimately is going to come back to is: When a Runespeed enchant lets you move to location so you can resume casting Burn Rotations faster, it will prove superior. If you move around faster while casting Scorch, and keep moving (or even stop) while still casting Scorch, the benefits will drop. My experience on raids this week is the former is still super common: Runspeed lets you move to location faster, so you can resume Burn Rotations.

On a fight like Atromedes air phase, for example, you're moving continuously. On a fight like Omnitron council, you often want to immediately move to a Void Zone - the faster the better - so you can immediately begin casting your Burn Rotation while inside it. On Atromedes ground phase, you're moving so much you don't really get a chance to Burn Rotation for long periods. Therefore any time you perform the required movement, you want to get it done as fast as possible, then immediately want to start casting Fireball again afterwards with the excess mana you're having difficulty burning off.

The Blink spell throws a wrench in this ("Just blink instead, that should be sufficient?") but i'm still confident it's the best advice for now. On Atromedes, even with Blink, I find myself needing to move fast to location more often than Blink's cooldown anyway. Will wait for more feedback on raid encounters before we consider rewording the statement below:

Runspeed Enchant: Time spent moving is effectively lost or lower DPS. Although you can still cast Scorch while moving, it's still lower DPS then a Burn rotation. Runspeed enchants therefore can be considered a DPS enchant for many encounters, and a strong one at that, with the actual value varying depending on the unique movement requirements of each encounter. In a Patchwerk style fight, however, where there's no movement at all - there are 50 Hit / Mastery enchants available which would strictly be superior for DPS. Generally speaking however, the vast majority of encounters require sufficient movement to make Runspeed the best enchant for boots by far



#52 Intermission

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:51 PM

Has anyone calculated what is the value of ”Impact” in boss encounters? The guide says that it is “Highly recommended. Impact (DOT spreading) is a strength of the Fire tree.” but in my experience this is vastly overrated. In latest SimulationCraft there isn’t any damage done via Fire Blast, which may be simulation limitation, but causes me to wonder should I skip the points there and put them instead into “Arcane Concentration” since currently mana is real problem for optimal dps. (I am aware that this may change when we get better gear and mana shortage is lesser concern)

PS: First post from long time forum lurker.


Every spec should have Impact unless you are specifically fighting a single target boss and have a custom made spec for that boss only. Impact's value is worth it even if you occasionally have a second target and want to spread dots to it. Then on fights such as Maloriak or Halfus, a single Impact'ed fully charged Combustion can do 15-20% of my total damage for the entire fight, let alone the Ignite/Pyro that was also spread via Impact.

#53 Power

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:04 PM

Despite sounding like a ridiculous thing to do, it could actually provide up to ~90% of the DPS your normal Fireball/Scorch rotation would ordinarily deliver. Surprised at how strong it is? The big reason is Hot Streak: Scorch is a fast casting spell, and casting it more often means you get many more opportunities for Hot Streak Procs. Those Pyroblasts are big DPS. Ultimately, attempting this style of play will be a DPS loss, even if not quite as big as you might initially suspect.


While you are trying to sound nice, you are still selling Fire-Scorch as completly unviable.
I think it would be good to add a few more facts:

In T11 ilevel 372 gear Fire-Fireball provides ~10% more DPS than Fire-Scorch for Patchwork Fights.

~3% of this is T11_4piece
~3% of this is Glyph of Fireball (vs. Glyph of Living Bomb)
Fights with (unexpected) movement or knockbacks will reduce the DPS difference.
Fights with adds will reduce the DPS difference.

#54 Tyrian

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:34 PM

While it wasn't intended to sound like that, I agree readers might draw that conclusion. Thanks for the feedback. With this in mind, that section in the OP was rewritten to sound a little less like Scorch Rotations are a dirty (or even wrong) thing to do when the situation calls for it. For easier reading, casting only Scorch in rotation is being referred to as a "Pure Scorch Rotation".

Pure Scorch Rotation|This refers to only casting Scorch in rotation, not casting Fireball at all. Doing this can still provide up to ~90% of the DPS of your Burn Rotation. Surprised at how strong it is? The reason is Hot Streak: Scorch is a fast casting spell, and casting it more often means you get many more opportunities for Hot Streak Procs. Pyroblasts are big DPS. For stationary Patchwerk style fights: A Burn Rotation is, in a vacuum, still higher DPS than a Pure Scorch rotation. Burn Rotations get further support from Glyph of Fireball and the 4-piece Tier 11 bonus, whereas Pure Scorch rotations do not. In practise, however, there are several factors which might prevent you from casting Burn Rotations:MovementKnockbacksAdds or AOE requiredIn many encounters you'll find yourself unavoidably casting Pure Scorch rotations during these periods. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, in fact it's the opposite: It's obviously much better DPS to continue to cast Pure Scorch rotations - instead of casting nothing at all!



#55 Naqaj

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:59 PM

As far as we know, this is accurate. T3 Hot Streak is not affected by debuffs such as Critical Mass, and thus the proc chance of T3 HS is not affected by debuffs. T4 Improved Hot Streak is, by it's very nature, affected by debuffs, thus the chance of T4 HS is increased by debuffs.

In short, Critical Mass increases the relative value of T4 vs T3 HS.

* note: this needs/will receive more testing to confirm.


I was just brought back to this topic. Does the Fireball glyph affect the proc chance of T3HS? It doesn't affect the paperdoll critrate, so it might not affect the talent as well. Might be a another factor in the FB vs FFB comparison.

#56 Shaewyn

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:38 PM

I was just brought back to this topic. Does the Fireball glyph affect the proc chance of T3HS? It doesn't affect the paperdoll critrate, so it might not affect the talent as well. Might be a another factor in the FB vs FFB comparison.


As far as I've been able to tell, only the character sheet crit rate affects the chance of T3HS. This would seem to imply that the FB Glyph would not decrease the T3 HS per-crit chance, but I've not tested it, partly because testing it will be difficult due to the enormous number of casts required to test it correctly.

Assuming that the FB Glyph does not affect the T3 Per-crit chance, it would increase the value of both T3 and T4 HS, relative to the FFB rotation.

#57 Tyrian

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:09 PM

A few PM's from readers saying the "Use Scorch Rotation" section still wasn't written clearly enough. It was thus rewritten again for better clarity. We're trying to explain that both types of rotations (Pure Scorch and Burn Rotation) have a time and place. Players shouldn't feel dirty for "Resorting to using Scorch", but should embrace the rotation when the time calls for it. And also to be mindful that there are times where the Burn Rotation is strictly superior and preferable, too.

Pure Scorch Rotation|This refers to only casting Scorch in rotation, not casting Fireball at all. Doing this could still provide comparable DPS to the Burn rotation. Why? The reasons are movement and Hot Streak: Scorch is a fast casting spell, and casting it more often means you get many more opportunities for Hot Streak Procs. Pyroblasts are big DPS. The other big reason is you can cast the Pure Scorch rotation while 100% moving. For stationary Patchwerk style fights: A Burn Rotation is, in a vacuum, still higher DPS than a Pure Scorch rotation by a margin of up to 10%. However, in practise, the difference may end up being much less: Burn Rotations get boosted support from the Glyph of Fireball and the 4-piece Tier 11 bonus, whereas Pure Scorch rotations do not. You may not have 4 piece, nor use the Fireball Glyph (See the Glyph section for more info). Furthermore, there are several additional factors to consider which can reduce the theoretical DPS difference:Fight with frequent unexpected movement penalise a Scorch Rotation less (You keep casting while moving)Fights with knockbacks penalise a Scorch Rotation less (You keep casting while knocked back)Adds or AOE Fights may favour Scorch Rotations (Scorch produces more Impact procs than Fireball. Also means you will have more mana available to AOE instead)In many encounters you'll find yourself casting Pure Scorch rotations during these periods. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Players might know a theoretical "Patchwerk" fight places Burn Rotation as superior DPS - but need to to take all this into account - before blindly making the assumption that Burn Rotations are always superior. They aren't. Both rotations have a time and place to be preferable, and optimal. It comes back to, again, the unique needs of each encounter.


I'll try to convert all this into something more tangible (and practical) players can relate to.

Here's a log for my kill of Atramedes (10) earlier tonight: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The relevant information to look at is not my dps, but spell damage sources: Scorch and Fireball. Atramedes is a textbook example of a fight where players need to embrace Scorch - and shake off the idea that "I should always cast Fireball where possible". This is why the appropriate sections of the OP are being rewritten, to make this clearer.

There are some periods in the Atramedes fight (Air phases) where you are moving nonstop for an extended period, and stopping to ever cast Fireball is often not possible, nor worth the risk. Other sections of the fight you may squeeze in Fireballs occasionally, but again, the large amount of movement required (Discs, Sonic Breath) will often quickly force you into Pure Scorch Rotations.

For this fight, i'd recommend players initially treat it as a Scorch fight. Once you become intimately familiar with mechanics, and won't fail them due to trying to cast Fireballs more frequently (aka standing still more often), start shifting into Burn Rotations where possible. But if you try to do this in reverse, chances are you'll be failing sound mechanics more often - which is a much bigger problem in the grand scheme of things. As you could tell via the Scorch damage in my log, I simply wasn't able to burn enough mana due to the constant movement required and number of Scorches therefore cast. Ending the fight at 0 mana just wasn't really possible - and I even used Evocation either - despite this being a 8.5 minute fight. These are all things we know we should aim to do, but sometimes it just isn't possible due to the unique needs of each encounter. In hindsight, I probably Scorched too much and should try to squeeze more Fireballs in, instead of playing it safe by constantly moving. But, being the first raid on Live with him, we wanted to play it safe in general.

You can see Elluminae doing this fight as Fire also here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Notice that Fireball was the main contributor for him/her. The difference in results comes down to various factors such as: strat, positioning (very important), skill, natural spec DPS variance, raidcomp, practise and experience with the fight, familiarity with the spec in general - and so on.

This particular fight also solidifes why Fire is king when it comes to choosing a Mage spec which favours Mobility.

Edit - I could go on writing about the various problems of Fire being exposed in current raid fights. High DPS variance, dependancy on Crit, Combustion being frustrating and awkward to use. But i'll skip those (for now) and keep this post strictly about Scorch, until more people are doing said fights and can relate first hand. All these points were documented well before release, during beta, and can be found in threads such as this one: Fire Mage: Lvl 80 vs Lvl 85 Comparison - Forums - World of Warcraft

Edit 2 - To the below poster, that's true. I rewrote that line to be:

Your goal is to end each fight with exactly zero mana. However, it's not always possible to achieve this in practise. This doesn't necessarily mean you've failed or done something wrong: Unique encounter needs might mean the optimal way to end a fight is indeed with excess mana, simply because you had no other way to burn it off.



#58 Saruk

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:35 PM

This is a minor point, but the original posts says:

"Your goal is to end each fight with exactly zero mana. Unused mana is wasted DPS - you should have started casting Fireball earlier to burn it off."

To the point you just made, this is not entirely correct. On heavy movement fights when casting free scorches, you may indeed end up with mana remaining yet have put out the max dps given the mechanics.

#59 takolin

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:10 AM

I updated the Runspeed enchant part of the OP to include these points.

What it's ultimately is going to come back to is: When a Runespeed enchant lets you move to location so you can resume casting Burn Rotations faster, it will prove superior. If you move around faster while casting Scorch, and keep moving (or even stop) while still casting Scorch, the benefits will drop. My experience on raids this week is the former is still super common: Runspeed lets you move to location faster, so you can resume Burn Rotations.

On a fight like Atromedes air phase, for example, you're moving continuously. On a fight like Omnitron council, you often want to immediately move to a Void Zone - the faster the better - so you can immediately begin casting your Burn Rotation while inside it. On Atromedes ground phase, you're moving so much you don't really get a chance to Burn Rotation for long periods. Therefore any time you perform the required movement, you want to get it done as fast as possible, then immediately want to start casting Fireball again afterwards with the excess mana you're having difficulty burning off.

The Blink spell throws a wrench in this ("Just blink instead, that should be sufficient?") but i'm still confident it's the best advice for now. On Atromedes, even with Blink, I find myself needing to move fast to location more often than Blink's cooldown anyway. Will wait for more feedback on raid encounters before we consider rewording the statement below:




The problem I see with this is that, you can't always starts your burn rotation the moment you stop moving as you're tied to your scorch cast as well and you shouldn't ever stop casting. So getting there 1 second faster, doesn't matter if your cast still lasts 1.3 seconds.

Now I'm not arguing against the runspeed enchant, but your reasons aren't always true and incomplete.


Other valid arguments you can make for a runspeed enchant are:

*Getting faster out of the fire. This has nothing to do with doing more damage but rather from a survival point of view.
*Getting (back) in range because you had to be somewhere else or an add spawned on the other side of the room.

#60 Tyrian

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 01:13 AM

I tried Argaloth again this reset, and found it pretty easy to follow the "Ideal" mana plan outlined several posts back, and in the OP section. This is pretty good starting practise for raids. Just need to be mindful that Argaloth is certainly not the norm for encounters, and players will ultimately need to learn to deviate (to varying degrees) in pretty much every other encounter.

Just takes some practise with a couple attempts to gauge how long 35%->0% will actually last, which in turn will determine what size Mana Reserve you'll need to have on standby immediately prior to Molten Fury range. (Controlled via Hover Rotation + Scorch Weaving).




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