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Rogue Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition


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#41 Mutevole

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:17 PM

Yes, thank you for the answers on the weapons. After browsing the Cataclysm guide at Best Buy and reading that for Assassination, they recommended two fast daggers, I was questioning their accuracy as I know EJ does extensive testing and was hoping someone would touch on it.

#42 zafro

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:20 PM

So here is my noob question. It is pvp related.

I want to know what poisons i should be using as an assassanation rogue. To me, it seems like i should use Instant and wound poison. The reason being that if i use deadly poison, I will knock the opponent out of gouge every time. This is something i do not see as effecient, since I need to keep the person stunned for as long as possible.

I know that the blind glyph will remove all dots everytime i use it on someone, but if i try to gouge after the blind is almsot up then they will get the deadly poison dot.

If i am to not use deadly poison, then i will be using eviscerate. Maybe the reason I see a lot of people using deadly poison and envenom instead is because it is worth the damage? and gouge would more of less be used as an interupt ?

#43 silentscream

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:52 PM

pvp mutilate spec without the use of deadly poison will drop your dmg to your target considerably. instant poison mh deadly oh for sure, wound poison (at least for pvp mutilate) is pretty much zero'd out with the nerf to the ms it applies, now being 10% down from 20%. in regard to gouges being broken because of the deadly poison dmg, it will happen. will it be game breaking? probably not. the massive envenoms will put more pressure than most teams can withstand. mind you, assasination pvp spec is supposed to be a "train" spec, so removing deadly poison, as i first stated, will nerf your dmg output. use gouge as an interrupt and a peel for your teammates.

#44 zafro

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:40 AM

Ty for making that clear.
If anything i should just put wound on my throwing and use FoK.
And what did you mean by "assasination pvp spec is supposed to be a "train" spec, "

by train do you mean, like the locomotive machine, implying this spec hurts?
or train spec as in, you use this spec to train yourself, possibly for the use of another spec?
I dont know why this doesnt make sense to me, sorry o.o

#45 Kireiray

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:05 PM

I'm wondering how useful hurricane is currently: it seems to be bugged. With it on two weapons I have seen it proc 3 stacks on me of 450 haste. Also, there is no ICD and just simply a 15% proc chance. It seems to be pretty amazing unless i'm missing something.

#46 Crosshairs

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:46 PM

I'll be in a ten man with two tanks that doesn't provide the Armor debuff. For my own dps should I always be applying this if a tank does not? In addition if I am applying this should I spec into the Improved Expose Armor talents to save my combo points?

Improved Expose Armor
Generally, this is not a recommended talent as this particular debuff is easily provided by two tank classes and 50% chance can lead to disruptions in your rotation and DPS.



#47 Feist-Mok

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:33 PM

I'll be in a ten man with two tanks that doesn't provide the Armor debuff. For my own dps should I always be applying this if a tank does not? In addition if I am applying this should I spec into the Improved Expose Armor talents to save my combo points?


Do you have a Hunter, Moonkin, Feral DPS, DPS Warrior, or even a Resto Druid that can cover it (The latter is not really a good option on all fights, but on many, tossing up 3 stacks at the pull is pretty easy for them)? If so, don't bother with EA, but make sure that whichever of those individuals is aware that they'll need to use an armor debuff pet/cast Faerie Fire/Sunder. If not, you should be running EA for your own personal DPS. Speccing into 1/2 Imp. EA only costs you Deadly Brew, and is a no brainer, going for 2/2 at the expense of Quickening is going to be your call.

You're still up for First Degree Slaughter of English Spelling, so sit the fuck down, defendant.


#48 Crosshairs

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:10 PM

Thank you. I have a more embarrassing question that I cannot find the answer to yet. What does it mean by 4+ combo finisher?

My understanding is that if I mutilate twice and up with 4 combo points, I should use my finisher instead of mutilating again. As it would be a dps loss to mutilate to get to 5 combo points then to just use a 4 point finsher.

#49 Soulvex

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:22 PM

Thank you. I have a more embarrassing question that I cannot find the answer to yet. What does it mean by 4+ combo finisher?

My understanding is that if I mutilate twice and up with 4 combo points, I should use my finisher instead of mutilating again. As it would be a dps loss to mutilate to get to 5 combo points then to just use a 4 point finsher.


As far as I know, it's do a finisher when you reach at least 4 combo points. So 3 or less combo points then you should mutilate.

#50 Sarvius

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:39 PM

My understanding is that if I mutilate twice and up with 4 combo points, I should use my finisher instead of mutilating again. As it would be a dps loss to mutilate to get to 5 combo points then to just use a 4 point finsher.


As far as I know, it's do a finisher when you reach at least 4 combo points. So 3 or less combo points then you should mutilate.


You are both correct. If you hit 4 cp, use whatever finisher. There's too much waste otherwise. If you're at 3 cp the risk of wasting a seal fate proc is still a better solution than a significantly suboptimal finisher.

With lower crit numbers at the beginning of the expansion and (apparently) throughout the rest of it, cp generation should be much more predictable. It will again be the exception to get a seal fate proc instead of being the norm.

#51 Reapzilla

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:00 PM

There are a couple fights where I get knocked out of stealth by aoe before I can get around to the back of the boss to open with garrote. What is the best way to open these fights? If I open with a mutilate and receive 2 CPs, I generally will not have enough time to get up a 4 CP rupture and then envenom to refresh SND. Is it better to open with a larger SND, better to envenom before rupture, or do a smaller rupture?

#52 Vaelaris

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:02 PM

it's not only this, but a 3 point finisher is suboptimal based on damage per CP as well as the reduced chance of a relentless strikes proc, causing a 3pt finisher to be much lower damage per energy.

#53 Riceylak

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:15 PM

The pocket guide is simple. Take the least valuable stat on an item and turn it into the most valuable stat you can. If the stats are equally bad, reforge whichever is numerically higher. When you approach them, figure out how to get expertise and hit capped with as little waste as possible. It's the exact same process as how you select what gear to use.


Well said, but be careful not to prioritise expertise capping as an Assassination Rogue, as was discussed in Aldriana's guide. My understanding is that it would never be optimum to reforge to expertise. Please correct me if I am wrong.

#54 Aldriana

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:24 PM

Specifically, there is no current spec that finds it worthwhile to both Expertise and Spell Hit cap based purely on the numbers. That said, I confess myself becoming slightly more sympathetic towards the notion of capping Expertise for Mutilate, as there are some fights where reasonable strategies may have melee attacking from the front for some portion of the fight. And while from a purely theoretical perspective you'd need to be doing so 20%+ of the time to make Expertise pass Mastery, the practical reality is that with a 20% parry+dodge rate it can be hard to maintain a cycle. So while I'll refrain from making a global recommendation for all rogues, I will say that those of you in guilds with strategies that involve nontrivial amounts of attacking from the front may find stacking expertise up to the dodge cap a reasonable option.

#55 Synek

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 10:26 PM

I'm going to bring up the Cloak of Shadows Chaos Bolt miss/resist question again.


3) Chaos Bolt cannot be resisted, and pierces through all absorption effects. Directly from the Chaos Bolt tooltip. As to the actual mechanic, according to Wowhead it is reducing any attacker's spell hit chance while it is active.


Quoted from the WotLK thread.

If Chaos Bolt is designed to pierce all Absorption/resist affects, and Cloak of Shadows affects miss chance, should Chaos Bolt not miss? From testing, I've found that Chaos Bolt never missed while Cloak was up. Would that mean that Chaos Bolt is not affected by '-hit chance' effects, although it is not stated in the tooltip? It appears that either that is the case, or Cloak of Shadows is a resist mechanic, but appears to be a miss mechanic, which people have claimed it is not. Can anyone clear this up?

note: I don't play Warlock very much so I know little about the mechanics of their abilities.

#56 Peeb

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:31 PM

Mainhand dps EP is mentioned in this thread, but something I'm interested in is quickly capping my Conquest points for the week (three rated BG wins will do it) and picking up a Viscious Gladiator's offhand. I'd be replacing the Throat Slasher, but I can't seem to find an EP value for offhand DPS.

What is a good estimate for offhand dps EP and would it be worth getting a quick epic until raid epics are more readily available?

#57 Aldriana

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:52 PM

Depends on whether you're talking Combat or Mutilate. For Mutilate, OH DPS is... pretty much irrelevant, honestly. With the loss of DW Spec for Assassination, the (very) high amount of damage we get from poison, and the transition to Backstab at low HP (which doesn't use OH damage at all), it turns out that the most important attributes of an OH are 1) speed and 2) stats, with DPS being a distant third. The EP value of 1 point of OH weapon DPS is typically just barely over 1 (~1.02 in BIS).

For Combat, it's stronger, but still only about 2.2 EP.

#58 Danzir

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:33 AM

I have a question regarding MH for combat. I am not sure how significant of an issue this would be, but there is a 2.7 speed sword (Cruel Barb): Heroic Deadmines) that drops. There is also a 2.6 speed sword that drops (Thiefs Blade). Previous wisdom held that slower MH meant harder hitting Sinister Strikes/white mh -- Yet, with the introduction of Main Gauche, does the benefit of a slower main hand (2.7 vs. 2.6) turn out to be a wash?

2.7 Harder hitting SS, less Main Gauch Procs
2.6 Less hard SS, but more Main Gauch Procs + potential poison procs.
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#59 Aldriana

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:36 AM

As a general rule, slower is better for combat MHs - not by as much as in Wrath, but still better. There are some interesting exceptions to this, but they don't become relevant until there exists fast nondagger rogue weapons, so for the moment its generally safe to assume that slower is better.

#60 Sylvira

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:48 AM

So I have some subtlety dps questions.

Ive been trying and trying to get the rotation working but it just doesnt. Im about 15-20% behind the damage I do with my mutilate spec.

The problem is that its all I can do to keep SnD AND Recuperate up, theres no way in all hell I can get rupture up and eviscerate in addition to keeping SnD and recuperate up. Problem with this is my 10 man group pretty often doesnt have a bleed which means I NEED to rupture. So since I want to be subtlety at least off and on, whats the optimal thing to do here? Should I get rupture up and keep it up? Is it better to let recuperate or SnD fall if needed? What about when I have someone else with a bleed, should I ignore rupture then and just rotate SnD and Recup with an occasional rupture thrown in when I can?




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