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The Blue Post Thread: Cataclysm Edition


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#1 Aldriana

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:45 PM

In the interest of keeping the forums organized, any blue post regarding rogues that is being copied to these forums should be posted only in this thread. Before copying such a post into this thread, please make sure it hasn't already been posted. Please do not copy/paste blue threads anywhere else unless you are also providing significant additional analysis relevant to the thread's content.

Feel free to also use this thread for basic discussion of changes, but please try to be constructive about it. Whining about nerfs, asking for specific gear advice in light of the changes, and any other behavior that would get you an infraction anywhere else of the forums will still get you an infraction here.

#2 Anubseran

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 06:30 AM

From GC's blog post at Upcoming Class Changes - World of Warcraft. I've edited out the parts that are not relevant for rogues.

On PvE damage

PvE

We’re happy with damage overall. We have very few traditional tank and spank fights (even Argaloth likes to parry melee) so it’s hard to get consistent numbers without very large data sets..(snip).....We aren’t seeing a lot of Subtlety rogues in PvE yet, so that sample size is still small.


On underused stats

We’ll make a pass to make stats that aren’t attractive (but are supposed to be) more attractive. For example, we don’t want Assassination rogues to dismiss crit or Feral tanks to dismiss haste.


On Combat Mastery

Mastery is a new stat for us, and there are a few specs that don’t value it enough. In some cases (e.g. Combat rogues), the design for mastery is fine and we just need to buff the effects to make it more desirable.



On Combat weapon itemization and upcoming changes for next pass

We want to make it clear that Combat is intended to use fast off-hand weapons. We also want to polish Revealing Strike a bit.


Edit:
My thoughts on the changes: Its good to see that combat is possibly getting some love through buffs to our mastery as well as Revealing Strike. Perhaps it might lead to some cycle changes depending on the extent of the buff to Revealing strike. Even Assassination might be slightly buffed, depending on the changes the spec to make better use of the crit on gear. However in its current state, I see no talents that are directly affected by crit rating apart from Seal Fate, so its hard to speculate where the changes might occur (if they do).

#3 Aldriana

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 07:55 AM

I find the comment about crit for Assassination rogues sort of odd - its not like crit is any worse for assassination than it is for Combat. Its certainly our worst stat, but not by a completely ludicrous margin. So it seems sort of odd to single it out like that.

That said, there is a reasonably obvious way for them to address it. If they gave us - either as a rogue baseline ability or as part of Assassin's Resolve - 200% spell crits like most DPS casters (and DKs) have, that'd boost Assassination's crit EP to be more competitive with the other stats (ahead of Expertise but behind Haste). Whether this is the change they actually intend to make I couldn't say, but given that Assassination rogues get close to half their damage from spells (as in, effects that crit using spell crit mechanics), I'd be shocked if they hadn't at least considered giving us some caster-DPS style talents for it.

The other interesting/slightly contradictory part of that is how they're going to buff Main Gauche while also increasing the importance of a fast OH, as currently those goals sort of work at cross purposes. It will be interesting to see what they come up with to achieve both of those at the same time - it seems like they're almost going to have to rework the Combat mastery in a fairly fundamental sort of way to make that work, which doesn't really align with the claim that they like the mechanic and just want to buff the efficacy.

#4 Onodrim

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:37 PM

It seems contradictory, granted. I suppose their interest in stressing the importance of fast off-hand weapons is a desire to maintain both Combat Potency and poison damage as integral parts of Combat damage. Being fundamentally opposed, they'd have to tinker with either Combat Potency and poison damage on one side, or Main Gauche on the other.

It's purely conjecture at this point, of course, but right off the bat, I'd think it unlikely for them to alter poison mechanics or Combat Potency too much. That leaves getting Main Gauche to hit harder or more often. I reckon one way could be to regulate the damage of Main Gauche based on attack speed of the off-hand weapon. A bit like the alteration Fan of Knives went trough to make it a more appealing ability to dagger wielders. Either that, or simply increase the proc chance of Main Gauche. I admit, though, I haven't done any math to outline the ramifications of such changes; for one thing, increasing proc chance might increase energy regen too much.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

#5 Gorathra

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 06:13 PM

What if they made MG more like a shiv effect? That everytime it hit it would add a combo point. How much value would it add to the mastery then?

They also really need to add some fast OH weapons, I miss having matching weapons. :)

#6 Raconzor

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 09:14 PM

Making the MG attack normalized would let combat potency push combat into a fast off hand, while allowing them to buff proc rate/damage bonus as needed for balance.

#7 Onodrim

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 10:04 AM

The Cataclysm Mechanics Testing Thread already confirmed Main Gauche to be a normalized, special attack. In that sense, simply increasing proc chance could see Combat's energy regen becoming even more disproportionate compared to that of the other trees than it already is. To this end, I suppose the simple way to balance Main Gauche is to increase its damage. However simple, it doesn't really go any lengths to make Combat Mastery more interesting.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

#8 Bryt

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 03:49 PM

Patch 4.0.6 deployed on PTRs

Combat

* Combat Readiness now lasts 20 sec, down from 30 sec. Now expires after 10 sec, up from 6 sec.
* Main Gauche (Mastery) now provides a chance to deal an attack for 75% of main-hand damage. This attack can trigger Combat Potency.
* Revealing Strike now increases effectiveness of your next offensive finishing move on the target by 35%, up from 20%.

#9 Bane|Elune

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 05:19 PM

Also on PTR:

Subtlety

* now lasts 5 sec, down from 10 sec.

#10 wranor

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 06:34 PM

I didn't see this listed above about Main Gauche, from the 4.0.6 post in the PTR Forums:

Main Gauche (Mastery) now provides a chance to deal an attack for 75% of main-hand damage. This attack can trigger Combat Potency.

Please delete to consolidate as necessary.

#11 Galluf

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 02:03 AM

A new meta gem named Agile Shadowspirit Diamond (Agility/3% critical damage) will likely be added next patch. The recipe will be a random world drop from any cataclysm creature and will require 3 red gems to activate. Link to post here.

#12 Arbø

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:56 PM

Patch 4.0.6 - PTR Build 13482 MMO-Champion



Combat

* Vitality now increases your Attack Power by 25%, up from 20%.
* Restless Blades now also affects Redirect.


Subtlety

* Preparation no longer affects Evasion
* Sinister Calling now increases total Agility by 30%, up from 25%. Now increases the percentage damage bonus of Backstab and Hemorrhage by an additional 40%, up from 25%.
* Find Weakness now causes all your attacks to bypass 35/70% of that enemy's armor, up from 25/50%.
* Sanguinary Vein now also gives your Bleed effects a 50/100% chance to not break your Gouge.

#13 Feist-Mok

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 07:19 PM

Some additional datamined changes:


Enchanting
Enchant Bracer - Agility - Permanently enchant bracers to increase Agility by 50. Requires a level 300 or higher item.


The days of Leatherworkers Uber Alles are at an end it seems.

Combat
Mastery: Main Gauche now deals damage equal to 100% of a main hand attack, up from 75%.

Subtlety
Shadowstep now has a 24 sec cooldown, up from 20 sec.


And yet another buff for Combat. Between the Mastery changes and the addition of Redirect to Restless Blades, Combat is shaping up to be very strong in 4.0.6. Restless Blades should allow you to redirect anytime you have an insight level worth moving - 3 finishers brings the CD down by ~30 seconds - it takes about 20-25 seconds to get 3 finishers off, minimum, and that's about how long it takes to build to Deep Insight. If we're swapping targets more often than that, odds are we should be relying on Blade Flurry instead anyway.

You're still up for First Degree Slaughter of English Spelling, so sit the fuck down, defendant.


#14 lovingbenji

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 07:48 PM

Some additional datamined changes:

The days of Leatherworkers Uber Alles are at an end it seems.

And yet another buff for Combat. Between the Mastery changes and the addition of Redirect to Restless Blades, Combat is shaping up to be very strong in 4.0.6. Restless Blades should allow you to redirect anytime you have an insight level worth moving - 3 finishers brings the CD down by ~30 seconds - it takes about 20-25 seconds to get 3 finishers off, minimum, and that's about how long it takes to build to Deep Insight. If we're swapping targets more often than that, odds are we should be relying on Blade Flurry instead anyway.


Concerning the leatherworking part of your post, don't you think this could only be one new enchantement ?

For the buff on MG, are we sure the potency proc is kept along with the 100% MH damage ?

#15 Halbarad

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 08:13 PM

Concerning the leatherworking part of your post, don't you think this could only be one new enchantement ?

For the buff on MG, are we sure the potency proc is kept along with the 100% MH damage ?


I'm currently hitting a dummy on the PTR with my faithful wildflowers in offhand, have 35 MG procs and 0 CP procs seems they might of removed it.

#16 Aldriana

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 08:34 PM

Its possible that there's some weird interaction where you need to have an OH equipped for CP to proc. Can you try testing with an OH equipped, but turn to disable autoattacks and generate MG procs via SS (or equivalent) spam?

#17 Halbarad

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 08:44 PM

Its possible that there's some weird interaction where you need to have an OH equipped for CP to proc. Can you try testing with an OH equipped, but turn to disable autoattacks and generate MG procs via SS (or equivalent) spam?


Just did that now, same end result.

Posted Image

I would post the energy gained report but its 0.

#18 Andeh

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 10:55 PM

Oddly enough, the talent calculator linked by MMO-C (wowtal.com) shows that you should be receiving CP procs from your MG hits.

Combat Potency: Gives your off-hand melee attacks and Main Gauche attacks a 20% chance to generate 15 Energy.
Main Gauche: Your main hand attacks have a 16% chance to grant you an attack that deals damage equal to 100% of a main hand attack. Each point of Mastery increases the chance by an additional 2%.

So I think it's likely that it is still intended to proc CP, but just broken or NYI.

#19 Halbarad

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 12:07 AM

Seems to be bugged or NYI, the updated patch notes state

•Main Gauche (Mastery) now provides a chance to deal an attack for 100% of main-hand damage. This attack can trigger Combat Potency.

Public Test Realm Patch 4.0.6 Notes - Updated Jan. 11 - World of Warcraft

Edit, I also found this hidden down the bottom,

•Synapse Springs now increase Agility, Strength, or Intellect (whichever is highest for the character).

#20 Tinwhisker

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:45 AM

It hasn't been noted yet, but:

Alchemist's Stones for Agility, Strength, and Intellect have been added.

Which means there's a level 359 static Agi trinket being added. Stats should be similar to:

+ 380 Agiliy
+ Socket/Bonus
Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 213.
Equip: Increases the effect that healing and mana potions have on the wearer by 40%. This effect does not stack.

Also:

Left Eye of Rajh: Chance of triggering increased.




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