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Paladin Simple Questions: Cataclysmic Mode


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#21 Iol

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 05:12 AM

Prot Meta gem: The one with 5% block value. Does it puts us at 45% or 41% with holy shield up? (has it been tested vs 2% increase armor?)
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#22 Zalinda

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 10:42 AM

Getting back to delukz' question

1) If you were to actually get gear to a point where you would have 102.4 pure avoidance, then you'd be a tank your healers love and your dps hates.
It's important that tanks are getting actual hits because a significant portion of their threat comes from this. The AP increase through Vengeance and abilities proccing on receiving hits are necessary for threat management. (warriors and druids get extra rage).
So even if you could get to a state of pure avoidance it's probably one you would want to avoid (pun!) and instead find a suitable balance between avoidance and mitigation.
In reality, diminishing returns are going to make being entirely avoidable impossible.

2) sixcore seemed to have missed the point on this one...
Mastery gives you a flat chance to block. X mastery is Y chance to block.
Both parry and dodge however are on a diminishing curve. So your first X parry rating will give you Y chance to parry. If you already have a chunk of parry, then adding X parry rating won't give you Y chance to parry, it'll give less than Y chance to parry.
As you get more parry%, you need increasingly larger amounts of parry rating to add another percent of parry. The same is true for dodge.
That also explains the motivation for the reforge. If your dodge% is higher than your parry% and you're not block capped, then reforging X dodge rating into mastery will (due to the Diminishing returns) will be the better choice. The amount of dodge rating you're removing will reduce your avoidance (parry+dodge) by less than it would if you took away the same amount of rating in parry.

3) There is no hard cap on block. It's similar to Hit or Expertise. It is 'capped' because at some point getting more doesn't have any effect at all.

Being over the cap in anything can sometimes be a good thing if a certain mob mechanic reduces your abilities.
A mob doing a stat reduction could change things, as you loose Str (parry) and agi (dodge).
There have also been mobs with a higher-than-normal chance to hit.
I'm not sure if either of the above occurs in Cata instances/raids.
In any case it has in the past sometimes been beneficial to be slightly over cap, I'm unsure if such cases exist in Cataclysm content.

#23 Coeus

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 01:27 PM

Prot Meta gem: The one with 5% block value. Does it puts us at 45% or 41% with holy shield up? (has it been tested vs 2% increase armor?)


Right now, it will put you at 41% just like the old 1% BV metas. This appears to be a bug.

#24 DeluksZ

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 02:20 PM

How does effective HP calculates now? I keep seeing higher ilvl paladins with lesser hp then mine, but with a bigger block %. I gemmed stamina till this point, but I'm not sure weather change them to masterity or sta/masterity gems. I'll defintely change some at least for socket bonuses what gives mastery, but still would be nice to know what is superior due to EHP values.

#25 NoValidTitle

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 04:15 PM

How does effective HP calculates now? I keep seeing higher ilvl paladins with lesser hp then mine, but with a bigger block %. I gemmed stamina till this point, but I'm not sure weather change them to masterity or sta/masterity gems. I'll defintely change some at least for socket bonuses what gives mastery, but still would be nice to know what is superior due to EHP values.


What is your total avoidance at now? People are stacking avoidance over stam because it makes you easier to heal. More avoidance makes your HP less spiky. In Wrath HP stacking was super useful to help against getting 1-2 shot by a boss. Where with Cata mechanics you don't get 1-2 shot you get 10 shot. So smoothing out that incoming damage allows healers to predict your HP changes much better. I've gemmed multicolor gems to get bonuses. The itemization on socket bonuses are much better in Cata. I use Stm/Mst and Stm/Pry gems to meet socket bonuses, even for blue sockets. These kind of choices will likely change in the future as better gear comes along.

#26 Nexiom

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 10:39 PM

Regarding professions as a holy paladin, is it worth it to level up Engineering for the int springs/rocket boots (now that they can malfunction) or would it be more beneficial to pick up something else?

Regarding Engineering, I've done some reading in the other healing classes topics and it seems the best way to benefit from the springs would be to pop our mana gaining CDs at the same time (ie. Divine Plea) to get the most out of it, but does that mean I have to use Divine Plea on cooldown for maximum efficiency?

Are there better choices?

#27 Ohhellothere

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:37 PM

Regarding professions as a holy paladin, is it worth it to level up Engineering for the int springs/rocket boots (now that they can malfunction) or would it be more beneficial to pick up something else?


In regards to the Synapse Springs, some basic math yields 96 passive Intellect up time (480*12/60). Though if used in conjunction with cooldowns that are % based on mana pool it's going to have a greater effect. Seeing as the only other glove enchants are 50 haste / 65 mastery, as long as you're using your glove tinker efficiently it seems like a solid choice.

As for the Nitro Boost, they have the ability to kill you now. They can either launch you into the air or deal 120% of your hp in fire damage (though I can't find the spell effect for either on wowhead). Seems like a risk you have to decide to take. On a personal note, I can't think of a time in WoW raiding where you needed the speed burst if you were paying attention. That said, it can be a nice "ohgodohgod" button if you're willing to take a chance.

#28 thaen

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 05:04 PM

Perhaps this will be added to the Compendium at some point, but how much better is Int than Spirit for a holy paladin? I'm trying to decide between a DPS trinket with 216 int and a healing trinket with 216 spirit (Rainsong versus Harmlight).

I understand the math behind reforging crit/mastery to spirit/haste, but the tradeoff between Int and Spirit seems less clear to me. It sure looks like Int is just almost always better than Spirit if you have that choice. It seems like you can find enough spirit by reforging. Is this accurate?

Bonus follow-up: We should be gemming for Int exclusively, right? Ignoring socket bonuses except for meta, just like before?

#29 Ohhellothere

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:19 PM

Perhaps this will be added to the Compendium at some point, but how much better is Int than Spirit for a holy paladin ... I understand the math behind reforging crit/mastery to spirit/haste, but the tradeoff between Int and Spirit seems less clear to me.


Intellect is far ahead of the other secondary stats for Holy. And while the compendium may not state it explicitly, Intellect grants more benefits (Sp, Mana pool, regen, crit) over spirit. This is why you cannot reforge Intellect. It's "too powerful".

As to your question about gemming, figure it out yourself. Check the socket bonus and weigh if it's worth it to gem pure Intellect vs. matching the sockets for the bonus. Intellect bonuses are especially easy to work around.

#30 frmorrison

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:13 AM

In regards to the Synapse Springs, some basic math yields 96 passive Intellect up time (480*12/60). Though if used in conjunction with cooldowns that are % based on mana pool it's going to have a greater effect. Seeing as the only other glove enchants are 50 haste / 65 mastery, as long as you're using your glove tinker efficiently it seems like a solid choice.


The glove tinkers allow you to still have an enchant on your gloves. Divine Plea + Glove use is nice, but it seems like other professions are better since you don't have to worry about timing.

#31 Fancy_pants

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:35 PM

I'm having some trouble using Holy Radiance and Light of Dawn in 10 person raids. I've only ever done Halfus and Valiona/Theralion in BoT. On Halfus, I was rarely able to use either spell because we were spreading out 8 yards for the fireballs. I could use AoE heals when Theralion was active, but Valiona was more difficult due to ae damage from shadowbolts.

Any suggestions?

#32 Sashstabbem

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:12 PM

Which mainhand enchant would provide the most selfhealing in a SoI / WoG tanking build?
(Assuming just speccing and glyphing for helping the healers out, no interest in threat or DPS)

Looking at logs from my threat build, Mending seems to provide a nice solid chunk of selfhealing - but would I be better off with a spellpower enchant to boost up my WoGs? Instinct says not but if anyone has any actual figures on that I'd be grateful. Using heroic [Blade of the Burning Sun]

#33 Charybdis

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 08:42 PM

WoG scales off the higher of AP or SP, which means an SP enchant would be meaningless for a prot pally. Mending would indeed be the best option since even Landslide's unreliable 1000 AP wouldn't make up the difference for SoI/WoG. SoI is 15% of AP, so LS would only grant an extra 150 healing. WoG has about a 63% coefficient for Holy, less for us as Prot, so that's at best a 600ish increase if using 3 HP. With the numbers I've seen on Mending, just stick with it.

#34 Sashstabbem

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 11:42 AM

Many thanks for the speedy reply.
By that same standard, I'm not benefiting any by using a spellpower weapon and would be better off with my regular tanking stick?
I'm currently only hoykeying the SP weap in when there's a crisis moment and I have to start aggressively selfhealing and blowing cooldowns (Healer dead in fire, etc) so my perception of how much it's been boosting the WoG's has been off anyway.

#35 Nodrak

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:54 PM

WoG scales off the higher of AP or SP, which means an SP enchant would be meaningless for a prot pally. Mending would indeed be the best option since even Landslide's unreliable 1000 AP wouldn't make up the difference for SoI/WoG. SoI is 15% of AP, so LS would only grant an extra 150 healing. WoG has about a 63% coefficient for Holy, less for us as Prot, so that's at best a 600ish increase if using 3 HP. With the numbers I've seen on Mending, just stick with it.


There is no evidence of WoG scaling with AP. Any observed scaling is from Stat -> Spell power specialization bonuses.

Edit: As per the Prot thread, it appears that it does indeed have non spell power based scaling, my initial testing methods only checked as a side after the fact. I will have to do some testing and update the Holy Thread.

#36 Njus

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 02:52 PM

There is no evidence of WoG scaling with AP. Any observed scaling is from Stat -> Spell power specialization bonuses.


Correct. If this weren't the case, we could expect simply massive WoG's once we get a large stack of vengance later into a fight. Alas, my WoG's 5 minutes in are the same size as when the fight starts.

#37 Greatreaper

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:24 PM

holy paladin

Hello, does haste rating affect the hot of WoG (Long Word Glyph)? Do we get any additional ticks?

#38 Stodragon

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 12:13 AM

I have a question regarding the Holy tier pieces versus the non tier pieces. As I understand it, haste is a better throughput stat than both crit and mastery. Comparing the non tier to tier gear however I have noticed that all but 1 piece(shoulders) have haste as a secondary stat while none of the tier pieces have it.

My question is: are the set bonuses worth losing all the haste we would have from the non tier pieces?

While I consider myself a good healer, I am by no means a person who can create spreadsheets and compare sets of data that take into account the many variables that affect our healing spells. Previously, set pieces have had secondary stats that were not the favored ones. However, this was offset by the powerful 2 or 4 piece bonuses. Maybe I am overlooking something but the bonuses we get from T1 Cata(T11) seem a bit weak to me.

#39 Kiewii

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 01:45 PM

Does anyone know who manages the Rawr.Protpaladin module nowadays and if it will be updated for Rawr 4.0? (noone is responding to the old Rawr.Protpaladin threat over at maintankadin) Thanks.

#40 danau

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:24 AM

I have a question regarding the Holy tier pieces versus the non tier pieces. As I understand it, haste is a better throughput stat than both crit and mastery. Comparing the non tier to tier gear however I have noticed that all but 1 piece(shoulders) have haste as a secondary stat while none of the tier pieces have it.

My question is: are the set bonuses worth losing all the haste we would have from the non tier pieces?

While I consider myself a good healer, I am by no means a person who can create spreadsheets and compare sets of data that take into account the many variables that affect our healing spells. Previously, set pieces have had secondary stats that were not the favored ones. However, this was offset by the powerful 2 or 4 piece bonuses. Maybe I am overlooking something but the bonuses we get from T1 Cata(T11) seem a bit weak to me.


The 4-piece bonus is very nice and, to a lesser extent, so is the 2-piece, which is "good" but nowhere near as powerful as say, the tier 10 2-piece. I recall seeing some calculations (I believe in the compendium) which show that the 4-piece makes HR nearly mana-neutral, which would be extremely handy given its mana cost.

That being said, I personally don't think they justify the significant loss of haste for large chunks of crit/mastery, despite the ability to reforge.

Until someone is able to determine reasonably accurate stat weightings for Holy, it's hard to say just how much you're giving up, but eyeballing it I suspect it is quite a big margin between set and off-pieces. I certainly won't be going for any tier items any time soon.




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