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Paladin Simple Questions: Cataclysmic Mode


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#41 Nycgangsta

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 07:17 PM

I know this is a simple question, but I am a bit confused. The Holy Pally Compendium made it seem like Holy Light should be our primary heal, however, while looking at logs from other guilds, including some from regular posters on here, it seems that Divine Light is our primary heal, and Holy Light barely ever comes above 5% of total healing. I realize it's not like WotLK anymore and we're not just funneled into 1 spell, but there must be some pattern based on the efficiency of the different spells. I never really asked a question, so to make it obvious, out of Holy Light, Flash of Light, and Divine Light, what should a holy pally's "primary" heal be in a raiding situation?

#42 Noraj

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 08:09 AM

I know this is a simple question, but I am a bit confused. The Holy Pally Compendium made it seem like Holy Light should be our primary heal, however, while looking at logs from other guilds, including some from regular posters on here, it seems that Divine Light is our primary heal, and Holy Light barely ever comes above 5% of total healing. I realize it's not like WotLK anymore and we're not just funneled into 1 spell, but there must be some pattern based on the efficiency of the different spells. I never really asked a question, so to make it obvious, out of Holy Light, Flash of Light, and Divine Light, what should a holy pally's "primary" heal be in a raiding situation?


Without bringing Holy's holy power mechanics into play, it's probably easiest to think of Holy Light as the autoattack of healing, as it is very efficient. Bascially, when you aren't casting anything else, you're casting Holy Light. Sometimes you need something fast and strong, so you use Flash of Light. Sometimes you don't need that heal quickly, but still need it to be very strong; This is where Divine Light comes into play. If you attempt to chain-cast either of these, you will run out of mana very quickly, which is why you fill the gaps in-between with Holy Light.

Some of what you're noticing might also just be due to encounter-specific mechanics such as the Power Generators during Omnitron Defense System...Certainly at times like these when mana is less of an issue, a healer would be foolish not to use their stronger spells. Generally speaking though, while Diving Light might be providing a higher percentage of the healing done, you'll likely notice at second glance that the same player cast anywhere from two to five times as many Holy Lights during the encounter.
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#43 Crovack

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 01:19 PM

Without bringing Holy's holy power mechanics into play, it's probably easiest to think of Holy Light as the autoattack of healing, as it is very efficient. Bascially, when you aren't casting anything else, you're casting Holy Light. Sometimes you need something fast and strong, so you use Flash of Light. Sometimes you don't need that heal quickly, but still need it to be very strong; This is where Divine Light comes into play. If you attempt to chain-cast either of these, you will run out of mana very quickly, which is why you fill the gaps in-between with Holy Light.

Some of what you're noticing might also just be due to encounter-specific mechanics such as the Power Generators during Omnitron Defense System...Certainly at times like these when mana is less of an issue, a healer would be foolish not to use their stronger spells. Generally speaking though, while Diving Light might be providing a higher percentage of the healing done, you'll likely notice at second glance that the same player cast anywhere from two to five times as many Holy Lights during the encounter.


I'd like to just expand on this by saying that currently (as per the last math I saw), assuming full healing from DL and WoG, using DL's on your Beacon Target (with ToR) is more efficient and more throughput (obviously) than using HLs. This leads to a basic healing strategy of:
Use Divine Lights (or FoL in a pinch) on your Beacon Target
Use Shock/WoG/HL on non-beacon targets unless you absolutely need DL/FoL. Shock/WoG/HL do not generate HP on the beacon target and if the beacon needs healing it will still get half of that heal through beacon. This seems to produce the highest efficiency.

Realistically speaking non-beacon targets will often take more damage than shock/wog/hl can handle alone in my experience, but the closer you can stick to the efficient model, the less problems you'll have in fights when you're forced to stray out of it in order to keep people alive.

You can shock/wog your beacon, but I only do so if no one else needs healing and/or the tank is very low on hp.

Last thing I'll add is this all assumes no overhealing. If the tank is near full health and there's little expected incoming damage, HL'ing the tank can be the right choice. Avoiding use of HL on the tank only makes sense if you're getting the full heal out of DL.

#44 chX

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:00 AM

Hey guys. This is my first time posting, so I apologize if I have posted this in the wrong thread or if there's a better place I could have put it. Please let me know if that's the case.

I have a question regarding Paladin damage calculations. I've searched through this thread, the previous Simple Questions threads and a number of other resources, but have been unable to find an answer. I'm hoping someone could point me in the right direction. From what I understand, the standard damage calculation (the minimum and maximum damage shown in your character statistics) is said to be:

Damage = ((Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed) + (AP/14)) * Weapon Speed

This equation works correctly for a number of other classes, however I'm having issues applying it to my Retribution Paladin. I understand that Two-handed Weapon Specialization provided us with 20% more damage, however my calculations are still coming up short.

For example, my (unbuffed) melee stats are:
Damage: 3569 – 4360
Attack Power: 6893 (492.4 DPS)

My weapon stats are:
Weapon Damage: 1291 - 1937
Weapon Speed: 3.30

Using the above calculation gives me (for the minimum damage of the damage range):

Damage = ((Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed) + (AP/14)) * Weapon Speed
Damage = ((1291 / 3.30) + (492.4)) * 3.30
Damage = 2916

I have been attempting to add 20% to it like so:

2916 * 0.20 = 583.2.
583.2 + 2916 = 3499.2

Adding 20% to the initial weapon damage (1291) instead also comes up short. Is there anything that I'm missing here within my calculations?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

#45 Exemplar

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 01:33 PM

If you are referring to tooltip autoattack damage, you are neglecting the modifier from Communion. If you are referring to damage actually dealt, you also need to factor in damage reduction from armour as well as glancing blows.
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#46 Thulgar

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 05:40 AM

I have a question regarding the Holy paladin tier sets.

I've taken a good look at the ranked raiding holy paladins and noticed a large chunk of them not using any tier pieces (Most the 359 ilevel haste pieces from bosses like halfius/magmaw etc). The ones i did come across with tier pieces usually had atleast the 2 set and one item was often a heroic piece.

Do you think this is down to paladins specifically not using the tier pieces (since the stats and bonus aren't desirable) or do you think it's just quite early into the expansion and most don't have enough valor points?

Also do you think that, further down the line, there's even any point taking the tier 11 pieces since, as i mentioned, the bonus and stats are really undesirable?

(I mean my regen is good enough to keep using radiance when i really need to, infact i had it up every scorching breath from Halfius 25 heroic)

#47 Greatreaper

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:35 AM

responding to Thulgar

I think it is because of the stats. There is alot of mastery and crit on the Tier pieces and those are not that good compared to haste/spirit.

#48 Joodass

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 12:37 AM

If I have missed this or miss-read it somewhere else then I apologise. Is there anyway of getting your tank 'uncrittable'. I get the 102.4% block to ensure all damage is blocked but I don't read anywhere any mention of reducing the chance to be critted.

#49 finchna

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:06 AM

If I have missed this or miss-read it somewhere else then I apologise. Is there anyway of getting your tank 'uncrittable'. I get the 102.4% block to ensure all damage is blocked but I don't read anywhere any mention of reducing the chance to be critted.


If you take 3/3 Sanctuary you should be good.

#50 Sixcore

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:01 PM

Paladin Tank Question: How does Agility affect dodge and how does strength affect parry? I know they have different effects, especially in how the paper dolls show it. When you gain strength, your parry AND your parry rating increase, but when you gain dodge, your dodge chance goes up but your dodge rating doesn't. The Prot thread says agility affects dodge better than strength affects parry, but does the agility bonus to dodge suffer from DR? It seems like the strength bonus to parry almost certainly does. I'm just a bit confused, as I jsut got the agility sword from Valiona.

#51 malthrin

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:21 PM

Paladin Tank Question: How does Agility affect dodge and how does strength affect parry? I know they have different effects, especially in how the paper dolls show it. When you gain strength, your parry AND your parry rating increase, but when you gain dodge, your dodge chance goes up but your dodge rating doesn't. The Prot thread says agility affects dodge better than strength affects parry, but does the agility bonus to dodge suffer from DR? It seems like the strength bonus to parry almost certainly does. I'm just a bit confused, as I jsut got the agility sword from Valiona.


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#52 Kapnkillin

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 04:51 AM

This isn't specifically a paladin issue, but since I'm a prot paladin, and I didn't see a tank forum, I thought I'd give this a shot.

I've noticed that armor does not seem to be keeping pace with other stats in Cata.

For example, the new armor to cloak has only 25 more armor than LK. Similarly, the enchant armor to shield only adds 160 armor. These are pretty minor examples that didn't bother me, but then I started looking at trinkets.

Compare, for example, the Heroic Leaden Depair - adds 3240 armor if you're under 35% health. For me, this adds about 2% damage reduction, which is ok, but if you're under 35% that's not going to amount to much. Compare this to the proc from The Black Heart out of H. Trial - adds 7056 armor, randomly when you're hit.

If the stamina budgets were similar, I'd equip the black heart - no question. More armor, more often, and when it matters more.

In addition, the Bedrock Talisman just seems to be a joke - 1028 armor is all you get for equipping it? The under 35% hp is nice, but the equip effect seems really, really weak - especially for something that costs 1650 valor points.

To put it simply - why is it that armor budgets on trinkets and enchants seem so small compared to LK equipment and enchants? I'm not really worried about my damage reduction, sitting on about 60% right now, which seems right - but the small amounts of incoming armor to equipment seems strange to me.

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd appreciate it.

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#53 saboya

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:25 PM

Armor itemization on items had a major overhaul after patch 4.0. However, some items were not updated and still have their old values. Take for example. 2128 armor is considered totally OP now. Necks and rings with armor from ToC/ICC also had their stats lowered by about 600 points.

Those are just reminescent stuff.

#54 Violett

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:12 AM

quick qiestion.
For example we have casting time of Holy Light 1.93 seconds in tooltip.
What is actual cast time of the spell ? Equal 1.93 ? Or this being rounded up to 1.9 or 1.95 ?

#55 saboya

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 03:24 PM

Armor itemization on items had a major overhaul after patch 4.0. However, some items were not updated and still have their old values. Take for example. 2128 armor is considered totally OP now. Necks and rings with armor from ToC/ICC also had their stats lowered by about 600 points.

Those are just reminescent stuff.


Disregard this, upcoming patch notes:

Lich King trinkets with bonus armor values have been adjusted using the new Cataclysm formula, reducing their armor values substantially.


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#56 Charybdis

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 08:07 PM

quick qiestion.
For example we have casting time of Holy Light 1.93 seconds in tooltip.
What is actual cast time of the spell ? Equal 1.93 ? Or this being rounded up to 1.9 or 1.95 ?


It is 1.93. Blizzard calculates cast times to 3 significant figures, so anything over 1 second cast time will be X.XX, and under 1 second it will be .XXX.

#57 Jason0885

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 12:03 AM

I am inquiring about which is more important. Stamina or avoidance? I understand we are to shoot for 102.4% total avoidance, and Stamina effects the benefits we receive from vengeance. However, I am not certain I should gun for first. I have looked around in a few forums including the Protection one, and it is possible I may have looked over it. I doubt it though.

I would be inclined to think avoidance is more important. Because even though the damage is spikey until we push everything but block, dodge, and parry off the hit table. It could be more effective in helping the healers keeping us alive.

However, stamina gives us a larger health pool. Which in a way does allow us to take in more damage at a less spikey rate.

Would the "theoretical healthpool" in stacking avoidance be better than pure stamina's healthpool?

I am sorry if this qualifies as "hand holding", I do not mean it that way. I am just confused as to which would be better. And I thought this would be the best place to ask this question.

#58 Jonuts

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 09:22 AM

Taking your healers into consideration, Avoidance is better than stamina. But this assumes you have enough stamina that you're note getting insta-gibbed. Naturally you have to have 102.4% to make sure you don't receive a single unmitigated hit. THAT is your number 1 priority. After that, start trading in block for dodge or parry, whichever will give you the most benefit considering diminishing returns. More stamina is ALWAYS good, but unless your DPS is walking in with more life than you, you want to prioritize avoidance.

#59 dragancla

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 07:55 PM

Oh, here's another one:

Does Rebuke no longer proc Seal of Vengeance like it used to pre-Cata? I don't see any info regarding this change...

#60 Pdawg

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 09:51 PM

Does Rebuke no longer proc Seal of Vengeance like it used to pre-Cata? I don't see any info regarding this change...

Rebuke no longer procs Seal of Truth. This can easily be tested on a target dummy by hitting Rebuke with autoattack off (after you've applied at least 1 stack of Censure).




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