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Cataclysm Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Updated Feb 9, 2011 (4.0.6)


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#21 Wrathblood

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:21 PM

Good point on STR providing Parry. I was just telling someone about that this morning to. Gah.

Roughly speaking, if Neutral Avoidance is worth 0.85 Mastery, then each point of STR is worth roughly 0.21 Mastery defensively, which actually isn't bad (half as valuable as AGIL, which is a lot closer than the 0 value I was giving it before). I'll edit the list with this for now and I'll go back and check the math in better detail later.

#22 Theck

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:33 PM

Are you including Kings in those numbers as well? For example: Agility effectively gives you 0.5803 dodge rating before Kings is applied, or 0.6094 rating post-Kings. So if dodge comes in at 0.77, then AGI should be around

0.77*0.6094=0.4692 ~ 0.47.

Your number is closer to
0.77*0.5803=0.4468 ~ 0.45.

Similarly with Strength; I'd expect STR to come in at 0.91*0.25*1.05=0.2389 ~ 0.24. Even skipping Kings, I get 0.2275 ~ 0.23, which is a bit higher than the value you found.

#23 Wrathblood

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:37 PM

How much have people played with the various enchants?

I ask because the Mending enchant is working out better than I expected. Its not amazing or anything, but it seems to proc for about 1k and it appears to proc roughly 10% of the time of auto-attacks (testing CS/SHoR/less likely suspects now). That seems like it might add up to a decent amount of healing.

#24 Charybdis

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:53 PM

How much have people played with the various enchants?

I ask because the Mending enchant is working out better than I expected. Its not amazing or anything, but it seems to proc for about 1k and it appears to proc roughly 10% of the time of auto-attacks (testing CS/SHoR/less likely suspects now). That seems like it might add up to a decent amount of healing.


It needs to be compared to Windwalker though, since the 600 dodge is 3.395% before DR. We still need to test its uptime. Even if it only happens once a minute that's still an average .565% dodge which at current damage levels would negate more than mending.

The additional runspeed is notable because it apparently stacks with PoJ.

Also, I've mentioned canceling DP's aura to Emptyrepublic but I thought I'd add in the thoughts here until he adds the macro. Casting DP for the HP then canceling the aura will negate the 50% loss to healing and make the resulting WoG work properly. One possible concern is canceling DP might also cancel the HP gain, but it's unlikely.

#showtooltip
/cast Divine Plea
/cancelaura Divine Plea


#25 arlen

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:22 AM

One possible concern is canceling DP might also cancel the HP gain, but it's unlikely.


You keep the HP.

#26 Wrathblood

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:19 AM

Theck,

Good point. I'm pretty sure I included Kings for AGIL as the original numbers were including raid buffs, but I'll go back and check my math. Could have been a computational mistake on my part. STR I didn't actually calculate, I just ballparked it from where the Neutral Avoidance number came out and, thinking about it, I did not include Kings.

#27 Theck

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 02:29 PM

It needs to be compared to Windwalker though, since the 600 dodge is 3.395% before DR. We still need to test its uptime. Even if it only happens once a minute that's still an average .565% dodge which at current damage levels would negate more than mending.

The additional runspeed is notable because it apparently stacks with PoJ.


Windwalk has an uptime of about 32-40% based on a fairly comprehensive model. That works out to between 0.79% and 0.95% dodge after diminishing returns, though I'm not sure whether that's in a pre-raid gear set or a raid gear set (i.e. 346 or 359 average ilvl). Windwalk is 1 PPM on melee attacks, has no ICD, and doesn't proc off of spells or Censure damage (unlike Avalanche).

The run speed stacking is welcome news to me, that would negate my biggest gripe about the enchant (which is that I didn't expect it to stack with PoJ).

#28 Jaybird

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:14 PM

Hello again.

I was just wondering ... has anyone run threat numbers for this new Holy Radiance spell? Could it be useful for AoE threat?

#29 Charybdis

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:11 PM

Windwalk has an uptime of about 32-40% based on a fairly comprehensive model. That works out to between 0.79% and 0.95% dodge after diminishing returns, though I'm not sure whether that's in a pre-raid gear set or a raid gear set (i.e. 346 or 359 average ilvl). Windwalk is 1 PPM on melee attacks, has no ICD, and doesn't proc off of spells or Censure damage (unlike Avalanche).

The run speed stacking is welcome news to me, that would negate my biggest gripe about the enchant (which is that I didn't expect it to stack with PoJ).


I wouldn't hold your breath on it if I were you. Due to PoJ's wording and Blizzard's past with the talent it's quite likely Windwalk will be nerfed to not stack, and PoJ is unquestionably a necessity. The dodge on it does make the enchant worthwhile enough though.

#30 Wrathblood

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:58 PM

Theck,

I checked and you're correct about Kings and AGIL, I flat out had a copy-paste error and wasn't adjusting AGIL for Kings (base AGIL was getting it, but nothing else). I'll edit my post to put in your number.

On the topic of enchants, I never got to do that dummy testing with Mending (8" of snow? wtf!), but I believe it has about a 12% proc chance and works on auto-attack/CS/SHoR. I'm not especially confident of this, but I'll roll with it for this. I haven't found it to scale with anything and averages about 1k/heal. Assuming 50 auto/CS/SHoR attacks/minute, we're looking at 6 procs for a total of 6k healing per minute, or about 100 hps.

On windwalk, lets assume it works out to 0.8% additional dodge after DR. Assuming roughly 33% avoidance+miss and 50% blocking, that dodge will reduce incoming damage by ~1.4%.

So, the threshhold for equivalence should be around 7k incoming blockable dps. Under that and Mending looks better, over it and windwalk looks better. On fights where you have a lot of time where nothing's attacking you Mending will look better, while the extra run speed from Windwalk will be valuable in a lot of situations (especially if it stacks with PoJ. If it doesn't stack, that might be enough for me to dump the Ret tree entirely and switch over to a Last Word build).

My take from this napkin math is that Mending will probably be superior for heroics (assuming single target, a boss will need to swing for a little over 20k on a tank to reach the equivalence point, which is harder than heroic bosses melee for IMO, and lots of fights have chunks of time in which nothing is swinging at you) but Windwalk will probably be better for raiding.

#31 Raistlin212

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:00 AM

Good point on STR providing Parry. I was just telling someone about that this morning to. Gah.

Roughly speaking, if Neutral Avoidance is worth 0.85 Mastery, then each point of STR is worth roughly 0.21 Mastery defensively, which actually isn't bad (half as valuable as AGIL, which is a lot closer than the 0 value I was giving it before). I'll edit the list with this for now and I'll go back and check the math in better detail later.


A little late on this, but Str shouldn't be 1/4th of the Neutral value. It should be what it actually is, 1/4th of the parry value.

I like this way of looking at gear a lot though since I think the max EH era is gone. Now we're trying to maximize TTL/minimize incoming damage and having values for armor vs avoidance vs mastery is the primary difficulty in that calculation.

Regarding itemization cost of armor, can you extrapolate that from the two armor trinket versions? Failing that it seems like most of the 359 trinkets offer +321 to a stat (times 1.5 for 482 stam to stay consistent with standard itemization cost) where the armor gives 1285, that's another baseline measurement indicating it's 4 armor per point.

(Aside, would it break the game to have an Inferno Ruby cut for 160 armor to give us a good survival option in red sockets?)

If that value is accurate, are you saying each 1 point of armor is roughly 40% as valuable as 1 point of mastery, or 4 points of armor is 40% as valuable as 1 mastery? If it's the first case, armor trinkets are the best trinkets available by a wide margin (60%) versus all but perhaps stamina.

#32 mrbreck

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:49 AM

I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but the way Eternal Glory works is incredibly annoying. Instead of simply not consuming your Holy Power, it actually consumes it and then a second later restores it. So what you'll end up doing is throwing another CS in between instead of doing two WoGs or a WoG and a ShoR like you would want to. It's basically a waste of a GCD and a waste of Holy Power when that happens.

#33 Zalinda

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:23 AM

I'm slightly confused over how to fit in Windwalk into the tanking concept aimed at of being block capped.

If you aim at being block capped with the proc active, it means you won't be capped 60-68% of the time.
If you aim at being capped assuming the average effect of the proc, the same thing is true, although you will be closer to cap, and push a chunk of block off the table when the proc is active.
If you aim at being block capped without the proc. Then the proc simply turns block into dodge. Which while useful, isn't anywhere near as usefull as turning a hit into a dodge.

Does Windwalk remain the best enchant even when you're block capped, or is it only really useful when you're below block cap?
What would take over at block cap ? Mending ? Pyrium Weapon chain (40 hit rating and 50% disarm reduction) ?

#34 mrbreck

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:28 PM

I'm confused as to why pushing blocks off the hit table once you are block capped is bad. Doesn't that just mean you will totally avoid more hits, which is better for survivability?

#35 Theck

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:15 PM

Theck,

I checked and you're correct about Kings and AGIL, I flat out had a copy-paste error and wasn't adjusting AGIL for Kings (base AGIL was getting it, but nothing else). I'll edit my post to put in your number.


I think there's a problem with your armor valuation as well. To avoid spamming this thread with equations, I've posted the analytical derivation over at MT.

In short, an analytical approach gives each point of armor a valuation of ~1/7 that of mastery, or 0.14273 (rather than the 0.35 you found). If you consider it in terms of itemization (4 armor for every 1 mastery), it increases to about 0.57. So in other words, armor is a little over half as good as mastery for damage reduction in terms of itemization. It also means that the 160 armor enchant to shield is only worth about 23 mastery, less than the Blocking enchant gives.

Of course, I may have made a mistake, and I encourage people to double-check my calculus. But it's pretty straightforward, and some simple sanity checks seem to match the value I came up with. This might mean there's an error in the spreadsheet you used.

#36 emptyrepublic

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:15 PM

I'm confused as to why pushing blocks off the hit table once you are block capped is bad. Doesn't that just mean you will totally avoid more hits, which is better for survivability?


This is a question I don't think can be answered very well right now. The point you are making is speaks to the eternal argument of avoidance versus mitigation. Realistically speaking it's not possible to get capped right now. Thus it is more desirable to stack as much Mastery as possible since it doesn't suffer diminishing returns. When gear levels reach the point that the cap can be reached relatively easily this is a topic that will need to be revisited. Wrathblood, Theck, and others are already starting to work out the stat weighting which will clarify the balance we are looking for. The argument I'm making in the manual is to try to be as precise as possible when shooting for 102.4%. Pushing blocks off the table certainly isn't going to cause problems in of itself. It is however "wasted" rating. Those are itemization points that could go towards more expertise/hit or stamina (via gems/enchants).

#37 Skyhard

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:56 PM

First time poster here, Long time reader.

So far i have noticed that threath is really no problem in raids, Maybe our dps isnt insanely hard but so far on omnitron/halfus its been a cakewalk, the healing is tough tho and i often seemyself put on insight and spamming word of glory on the raid. Is anyone feeling this way, Or is it just me not trusting my healers enough. I know HP´ain supposed to be topped, put people are often below 10-15%.

Also, Can we expect to hit block cap this expansion, My current itemlevel is 252(equipped) and im at 75% total. block beeing 48.44% So it feels like its a bit to go still.

#38 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:04 PM

Increasing your avoidance once already block capped certainly has value. The question is whether its the best use of those itemization points. Increasing your Mastery once you're already blockcapped has zero value to a paladin tank, while increasing Avoidance would have some (though the value is less than it would be if you weren't blockcapped, because then you were pushing full hits off the table, and now you're pushing blocked hits off the table).

The question, which we cannot yet answer, is whether putting those itemization points into Stamina would be an even better use. Really, you'd want to take points out of Mastery and put those into Stam rather than moving the avoidance points (if you've got the option) but until we see hard modes we just don't know. Heck, maybe threat will magically become a big deal and you'll want to stack hit and expertise. I don't think that'll be the case, but we really don't know.

#39 mrbreck

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:46 PM

Also once your reach 102.4% be careful to balance dodge/parry correctly. Dodge and parry occur before block on the hit table so if you end up having too much dodge/parry you push more block chances off the hit table.


It just seems to me that, in a theoretical sense, this statement doesn't really make sense. It just seems that if you have nothing on the hit table except blocks and completely avoided hits, that pushing blocks off the hit table in favor of avoided hits would actually be a good thing. I know we can't actually discuss real numbers regarding itemization on gear that doesn't exist, I was simply responding to a theoretical situation as presented in the manual.

#40 Emily

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 06:26 PM

To get Block capped, you'll be Reforging Mastery on all your gear you can. Therefore you won't be comparing avoidance stats to Stamina at this point, you'll be looking to unforge some of the Mastery and replace with Dodge/Parry to stay capped but to increase your avoidance.




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