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Cataclysm Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Updated Feb 9, 2011 (4.0.6)


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#41 Capstone

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 10:39 PM

It just seems to me that, in a theoretical sense, this statement doesn't really make sense. It just seems that if you have nothing on the hit table except blocks and completely avoided hits, that pushing blocks off the hit table in favor of avoided hits would actually be a good thing. I know we can't actually discuss real numbers regarding itemization on gear that doesn't exist, I was simply responding to a theoretical situation as presented in the manual.



To be fair, he is correct that the particular section he quotes is poorly worded. Point for point, mastery is better than parry or dodge in terms of damage reduction up to the block cap. Having too much dodge or parry is not exactly a problem though. I do agree with emptyrepublic's assessment that having once hit block cap, you should probably funnel excess stats into expertise, but if you wanted to gear entirely for survival you would in theory be fine with continuing to gain dodge or parry past the block cap (this would be assuming you had already changed mastery gems and enchants to stamina where possible). In this case your concern would be to balance dodge and parry as much as possible to minimize your losses to DR. Naturally this is a few tiers of gear away from being possible, if ever at all.

#42 Tharia

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 05:14 AM

I keep seeing people talking about block cap as if it were some hypothetical thing in late cataclysm or something. Just to make this clear, block cap is possible in 359 gear. You need gems, enchants, food and elixirs for that, but it's definitely doable. And it is very strong in normal modes (i.e. probably recommended for most, if not all encounters), not because of the EH gain you get for being block capped but simply because avoidance is king and mastery is the best avoidance stat. If this all-out mastery strategy is viable in hard modes or you actually need more stamina for some huge unavoidable attacks is still not really clear. Guilds that are doing hardmodes right now seem to handle tank gearing in many different ways. We will only start working on hardmodes after xmas break, so I can't really comment on that.

#43 Zalinda

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 10:19 AM

I'm confused as to why pushing blocks off the hit table once you are block capped is bad. Doesn't that just mean you will totally avoid more hits, which is better for survivability?


My point of confusion seems to have gone somewhat lost in translation.
I never implied pushing blocks of the hit table is bad per se, other than this means you've wasted some of your iLevel somewhere.

My real question was:
Is windwalk still the best enchant if you are block capped? Or would another enchant take over ?

If you aren't block capped, then the merit of Windwalk is significant, turning a hit into a dodge is good.
If you are block capped, then the effect only turns a block into a dodge, and this is considerably less of an impact (pun intended).

#44 Wrathblood

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 12:40 PM

If you're already block capped, then the breakeven between windwalk and mending jumps to about a 34k boss swing, discounting the value of the run speed.

#45 Zalinda

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 03:16 PM

The runspeed is cancelled out by PoJ (it shouldn't stack if PoJ tooltip is correct).
I'm not sure I want to rely on a proc to happen for getting extra runspeed.


From a pure theoretical p.o.v. you're probably right on the boss swing. i'm just havign this nagging feeling about it. The point of block capping is to smooth out damage intake and reduce the amount of heartattacks on the healers. Once you reach that point, the difference between a percentage of 2 of blocks on a random interval turned into dodge isn't really going to make life on your healers all that much different. Whereas something like mending which has a fairly regular amount of extra healing probably helps more to smooth out receiving damage even more.

Afterall. If actual damage intake reduction was the real issue, we wouldn't be reforging pure avoidance into block. The whole reforging idea is about smoothing out, not about reducing total damage taken, we're likely taking more total damage, but smoothed out more. This is easier to heal. Shouldn't the rest of the gearing/gemming/chanting then be centered around that also? continue to strive to make us easier to heal. Even at the cost of taking more damage taken than the bear/warrior/dk tank next to us ?

#46 Gavinas

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 05:03 PM

Afterall. If actual damage intake reduction was the real issue, we wouldn't be reforging pure avoidance into block. The whole reforging idea is about smoothing out, not about reducing total damage taken, we're likely taking more total damage, but smoothed out more. This is easier to heal. Shouldn't the rest of the gearing/gemming/chanting then be centered around that also? continue to strive to make us easier to heal. Even at the cost of taking more damage taken than the bear/warrior/dk tank next to us ?


Mastery is actually more efficient at reducing damage taken than avoidance in any reasonable set of tank gear below the block cap. The break point where the diminishing returns start to make avoidance less efficient at damage reduction is ~10% for both dodge and parry ( Maintankadin • View topic - New patch and Block Capping).

I also doubt that we'll get to the same point in Cataclysm that we did in WotLK where damage intake felt spiky to healers because we avoided more hits than we took. Assuming that's the case I expect that once you reach the block cap it will always be worthwhile to reforge to maximize avoidance while still maintaining block cap in order to minimize damage taken.

#47 Iol

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:20 PM

Assuming that's the case I expect that once you reach the block cap it will always be worthwhile to reforge to maximize avoidance while still maintaining block cap in order to minimize damage taken.


I'm not sure about that. We'd have to look more into it but if we take into account that at this theoritical level of gear, Healer's spell will heal for more, HoTs tick for more. So maybe while keeping block capped, swapping out gear for more stam will be more beneficial. Stam will helps us soak magic damage too, and up our threat through vengeance... We should not forget this perspective.
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#48 Gavinas

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:15 PM

I'm not sure about that. We'd have to look more into it but if we take into account that at this theoritical level of gear, Healer's spell will heal for more, HoTs tick for more. So maybe while keeping block capped, swapping out gear for more stam will be more beneficial. Stam will helps us soak magic damage too, and up our threat through vengeance... We should not forget this perspective.


Certainly possible, my main point was that I doubt we'll ever want to intentionally avoid getting more avoidance instead of mastery while still block capped for the sole purpose of evening out damage intake. Whether it end up being better to trade the excess mastery for stam by swapping trinkets for example remains to be seen. Also since you can't reforge for stam the mastery->avoidance trade can be made in every gear slot whereas gems and trinkets are typically the only places you could trade mastery for stam.

#49 malthrin

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:19 PM

This discussion is rather pointless, since block cap is out of reach for the time being.
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#50 Guest_Alvin_*

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:30 PM

Got windwalk today and did some testing with the MonkeySpeed addon.

WW: 115%
WW & Boot Enchant: 124%
WW & PoJ: 132%


Edit: As a side note if anyone wants logs to test uptime or something let me know. I can upload to WoL or use any addon.

#51 Raistlin212

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 01:27 AM

This discussion is rather pointless, since block cap is out of reach for the time being.


I keep seeing people talking about block cap as if it were some hypothetical thing in late cataclysm or something. Just to make this clear, block cap is possible in 359 gear.


So, which is it? Clicking through to Tharia's profile indicates he's packing about 95% block+avoid pre buffs. That makes me think 102.4% isn't impossible to reach.

#52 Feebs

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:40 PM

So, which is it? Clicking through to Tharia's profile indicates he's packing about 95% block+avoid pre buffs. That makes me think 102.4% isn't impossible to reach.


If you look closer at Tharia's setup, you will notice that he has practically no hit or expertise. Obviously, this is working for him, and in a situation when you completely dump those stats, you'll find it much easier to bring mastery up to levels close to block cap.

#53 Wrathblood

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 01:13 PM

If you dump literally everything else, and gem/enchant/reforge with no other goal than to maximize Mastery, plus use food elixirs, other buffs purely to maximize Mastery, then it is JUST reachable in ilevel 372 purples. In ilevel 385 purples it will be reachable with fewer contortions.

Also, Theck and I worked out the correct weighting for Armor (well, really, Theck worked it out and I occasionally said "Huh, what?") and I've updated the weighting.

Now that this is worked out, I'm going to re-do the math for pre-raid gear to see how much the weightings shift for a different gear level. After that, I'll put out a list of values for trinkets, but I've got family in town now so I'm not 100% sure when I'll be able to get to it..

#54 Wrathblood

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:37 PM

So I re-did the weightings with pre-raid gear (basically my gear except I swapped the Engy helm for the JP since) and didn't hit Mastery quite as hard as Zarko. Also, on Dodge/Mastery pieces I reforged Dodge into Parry so they weren't quite as far apart.

The results were interesting. First, Mastery drops to 0.0010094, so even if everything else stayed the same their weightings would go up because their yardstick for comparison went down.

Weights
Mastery 1.00
Parry 1.01
Dodge 0.87
Armor 0.55
AGIL 0.50

A couple notes. First, I fixed the problem with the armor and I feel good about the 0.55 number. Second, I figured out why Parry and Dodge are so far apart and its not entirely because my gearset (even after reforging) is somewhat Dodge heavy (1127 vs 888). Its the AGIL.

Dodge DR is driven by both the dodge% you get from Dodge as well as the dodge% you get from AGIL, right? So while most tanking gear doesn't have very much AGIL, you get a good bit from buffs like Strength of Earth (549 AGIL and STR) then throw in some AGIL pieces (weapon + relic + Tia's Grace) and I'm looking at over 1100 AGIL contributing to dodge%, making the DR bite incrementally harder into incremental dodge. Not sure exactly what to do about this.

Also, while I haven't exactly been avoiding Parry (I've got a Parry cogwheel in my engy helm, so I'm not quite this low in game), it looks like the breakeven point between Parry and Mastery is somewhere in the low 900s for Avoidance, and failing to get over that hurdle is easier than I had thought.

#55 Theck

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:39 PM

Got windwalk today and did some testing with the MonkeySpeed addon.

WW: 115%
WW & Boot Enchant: 124%
WW & PoJ: 132%


Edit: As a side note if anyone wants logs to test uptime or something let me know. I can upload to WoL or use any addon.


If you can upload the logs to WoL, I'll take a look at them just to double-check the proc trigger testing we did on beta. On beta, it was 1 PPM off of melee attacks only (no spell or censure triggers).

The uptime we've modeled is between 30% and 40% depending on hit and expertise, which works out to around 0.8%-1% avoidance.

So I re-did the weightings with pre-raid gear (basically my gear except I swapped the Engy helm for the JP since) and didn't hit Mastery quite as hard as Zarko. Also, on Dodge/Mastery pieces I reforged Dodge into Parry so they weren't quite as far apart.


Can you post the relevant stats of the item set (block%, parry%, dodge%) with the results? That way I can check them against the analytical model.

For instance, your parry valuation seems high, especially for a gear set where we haven't reforged heavily for mastery. In theory, the only factor governing the valuation of mastery vs. avoidance is your post-DR avoidance contribution (equation 14 in the derivation, all the way at the end). For any gear set with more than about 10.2% parry, mastery should come out ahead of avoidance.

#56 Tharia

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 05:04 PM

If you dump literally everything else, and gem/enchant/reforge with no other goal than to maximize Mastery, plus use food elixirs, other buffs purely to maximize Mastery, then it is JUST reachable in ilevel 372 purples. In ilevel 385 purples it will be reachable with fewer contortions.


This is the profile I'm basing my conclusions on.
chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Only thing missing is raidbuffs and elixir/food, so 315 mastery rating and about 590 agi and 700 str.
I'm pretty sure chardev doesn't calculate avoidance correctly (at least it doesn't count agility as dodge, there seem to be other bugs), so I took the ratings I got out of the profile and added them into my spreadsheet (it's self made, so possibly wrong, but it does mirror correctly the ingame char sheet, so I'm quite confident in its accuracy) and got 103.6% combined avoidance, even if not counting the stacked trinket.

Again, disclaimer, right now this is only theoretical. I can't say if this is viable for hardmodes or not, especially because you are missing out on the 4t11 bonus, which might prove very useful. I don't think block cap is possible in 359 gear if you want the set bonus. A big stamina loss is also inevitable.

#57 Wrathblood

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:42 PM

Theck,

Yeah, sorry, meant to post that but been busy.

The totals incl enchants and buffs is 1127 dodge and 1184 AGIL (trinket), 888 Parry and 2606 Mastery. Ugh. Had a cell pointing to the wrong place which screwed up my Mastery number. I have to redo my values.

#58 Guest_Alvin_*

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 07:41 PM

If you can upload the logs to WoL, I'll take a look at them just to double-check the proc trigger testing we did on beta. On beta, it was 1 PPM off of melee attacks only (no spell or censure triggers).

The uptime we've modeled is between 30% and 40% depending on hit and expertise, which works out to around 0.8%-1% avoidance.


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Player name is Jkdc. This is Cho'gall so there are a few times that I'm attacking from behind or not attacking at all but hopefully it helps. 523 Hit, 25 Expertise

#59 Wrathblood

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:32 PM

Updated newer batch of numbers.

#60 Theck

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 10:57 PM

Also, while I haven't exactly been avoiding Parry (I've got a Parry cogwheel in my engy helm, so I'm not quite this low in game), it looks like the breakeven point between Parry and Mastery is somewhere in the low 900s for Avoidance, and failing to get over that hurdle is easier than I had thought.


The crossover point is exactly 952 rating for either type of avoidance in the absence of agility. Agility will reduce the crossover point by roughly 0.58*(post_kings_paperdoll_Agi-Base_Agi), or 0.61*(pre_kings_agi) for an individual item. So the 549 agi from Strength of Earth reduces the crossover point by ~335, and if you really had a total of 1100 agi from SoE+Items, the threshold would drop down to 282.

In any event, the gear details explain why your parry valuation was so high. I'll try and double-check the rest of the numbers later, but they all look reasonable given the gear set you chose.




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