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Frost Mage Discussion [Cataclysm]


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#41 Cryosa

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 09:28 PM

Using Lhivera's ilvl 359 Simcraft output and some rough napkin math for a 5 minute patchwerk style fight:

DF currently hits for ~85000 and is cast about 11 times, so ((85000 -(85000 * .8)) * 11)/ 300s = 623.33 dps loss.
FoF IL currently hits for ~23500 and is cast about 38 times, so (((23500 * 1.15) - 23500) * 38)/ 300s = 446.5 dps gain.
FrB currently hits for ~10500 and is cast about 142 times, so (((10500 * 1.15) - 10500) * 142)/ 300s = 745.5 dps gain.

So 446.5 + 745.5 - 623.33 = ~569 dps gain. These changes should close the gap between frost and fire.


In the latest patch notes on mmo-champion it says the following:

Frost Specialization now also increases the damage of Frostbolt by an additional 15%. However, if will decrease your Frostburn mastery by 6.

I don't have any math to back it up, but that last bit seems like a nerf, since it pretty much halves my mastery (from 12 or 13 to 6 or 7).

#42 Sinless

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 09:47 PM

Using Lhivera's ilvl 359 Simcraft output and some rough napkin math for a 5 minute patchwerk style fight:

DF currently hits for ~85000 and is cast about 11 times, so ((85000 -(85000 * .8)) * 11)/ 300s = 623.33 dps loss.
FoF IL currently hits for ~23500 and is cast about 38 times, so (((23500 * 1.15) - 23500) * 38)/ 300s = 446.5 dps gain.
FrB currently hits for ~10500 and is cast about 142 times, so (((10500 * 1.15) - 10500) * 142)/ 300s = 745.5 dps gain.

So 446.5 + 745.5 - 623.33 = ~569 dps gain. These changes should close the gap between frost and fire.


True but it would close the gap with 4.0.1 fire, remember that fire DPS is also getting buffed in 4.0.6 with a slight buff to mastery and a significant reduction in mana costs of FB and LB.

#43 takolin

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 10:15 PM

Looks like they updated the patch notes since I left work, but i think that the decrease of the mastery will only apply directly to frostbolt's damage to frozen targets. This will be a PvE buff, but while not being overpowered in PvP. This is just speculation at this point until we get some data from the PTR.


There has been a bluepost to clarify the changes and it boils down to something that shouldn't affect PvE a lot because the mastery nerf gets countered by the fact that a FoF IL doesn't lose damage when compared to live.

We did buff Frost Bolt. And we did buff Ice Lance when Fingers of Frost is up. However, we've decreased all Frost damage to Frozen targets by about 15% from previous values. The net result is intended to be that Frost Bolt is a little better against non-Frozen targets, and about the same versus Frozen targets. Ice Lance with FoF is still good, but Ice lance damage against Frozen targets is down a bit.

The intent isn't to nerf PvE frost at all, but instead reward Frost Bolt use in PvP a bit more, and reduce the damage and effectiveness of Ice Lance in PvP.

The important take away here is that datamined changes from pre-release builds and tests are not accurate ways for you to get information on intended game adjustments. Take it with a grain of salt, and approach it with a giant cup of curiosity.

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#44 Naqaj

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 10:25 PM

DF currently hits for ~85000 and is cast about 11 times, so ((85000 -(85000 * .8)) * 11)/ 300s = 623.33 dps loss.

If I read this correctly you reduced DF total damage by 20%. The patchnote reads reduced base damage.

#45 DrRumpus

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 12:16 AM

Some thoughts about the upcoming changes:

- As Frostbolt damage increases by 15%, Glyph of Frostbolt will also award more dps.
- As Deep Freeze base damage is decrease by 20% and effected by 15% less damage from mastery, Glyph of Deep Freeze will also award less dps.
- Ice Lance damage stays about the same.
100*((105+x)/(120+x))*1.15 should be the formular where x is the additional mastery from your character. E.g. with 5 additional mastery IL will do 1,2% more damage now. Correct me if I'm wrong
- Frostfire Bolt is also effected by 15% less damage from mastery. (Glyph of Frostfire Bolt awards slightly less dps.)
- Thus Ignite will also be effected
- Frost_Frostfire is no longer a reasonable build for PvE.

Overall I'm pretty sure this patch is a nerf to Frost even if it wasn't intended.

Edit:
Blizzard + Petnova will also have it's damage decreased until the nova breaks. I've used this regularly on Magmaw, Cho'Gall and sometimes with Maloriak and Halfus.

#46 Cryosa

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 01:03 AM

I just calculated the following using the latest 'Basic' SimC results from Lhivera:

Deep Freeze base damage change: average DPE lost = (3261-2608)/2 = 326.5. In the total fight this means (326.5*10.8)/300s = 11.75 dps loss.
Ice Lance increase: 3647*1.15 = 4194 dps = 547 dps increase
Frostbolt increase: 7255*1.15 = 8343 dps = 1088 dps increase
Mastery change: affecting DF, IL, FFB and ignite: 215/235 (in this sim mastery is 14) = 0.9149
DF: 3794*0.787 (dps*crit%) = 2986 dps from crits. 2986*0.9149 = 2732 dps. 2986-2732 = 254 dps loss.
IL: 4194*0.927 = 3888. 3888*0.9149 = 3557. 3888-3557 = 331 dps loss.
FFB: 2349*0.777 = 1825. 1825*0.9149 = 1670. 1825-1670 = 155
Ignite: 957*0.9149 = 876. 957-876 = 81 dps loss.
Sum: 547+1088-12-254-331-155-81 = 802 dps increase.

I hope this rather simple math is correct and if it is, my worries were needless.
Potential changes in glyphs and/or gear and their influence on these results should still be subject of discussion.

#47 Lhivera

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:14 AM

If I read this correctly you reduced DF total damage by 20%. The patchnote reads reduced base damage.


Remember that what MMO posts is not patch notes, and when it mentions base damage changes, it is almost always incorrect. Nearly every time, if not actually every time, that MMO-Champion has mentioned a "base damage" change since mid-Cataclysm beta, that change has also been accompanied by a matching coefficient change.

Also bear in mind that these changes are likely to skew ratings values somewhat. Gear adjustments may affect the final DPS gain or loss.
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#48 durianboss

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 08:22 AM

I am sure this has been mention before soft crit is 33.4%.
However it seems that noone take the 2% crit resistance that all boss have in to consideration.
Therefore the soft crit should be 34% instead of 33.4%

#49 Pent

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 11:39 AM

I just calculated the following using the latest 'Basic' SimC results from Lhivera:

Deep Freeze base damage change: average DPE lost = (3261-2608)/2 = 326.5. In the total fight this means (326.5*10.8)/300s = 11.75 dps loss.
Ice Lance increase: 3647*1.15 = 4194 dps = 547 dps increase
Frostbolt increase: 7255*1.15 = 8343 dps = 1088 dps increase
Mastery change: affecting DF, IL, FFB and ignite: 215/235 (in this sim mastery is 14) = 0.9149
DF: 3794*0.787 (dps*crit%) = 2986 dps from crits. 2986*0.9149 = 2732 dps. 2986-2732 = 254 dps loss.
IL: 4194*0.927 = 3888. 3888*0.9149 = 3557. 3888-3557 = 331 dps loss.
FFB: 2349*0.777 = 1825. 1825*0.9149 = 1670. 1825-1670 = 155
Ignite: 957*0.9149 = 876. 957-876 = 81 dps loss.
Sum: 547+1088-12-254-331-155-81 = 802 dps increase.

I hope this rather simple math is correct and if it is, my worries were needless.
Potential changes in glyphs and/or gear and their influence on these results should still be subject of discussion.


I might be wrong here but... isn't all damage against frozen targets reduced by 15%? This would mean that with 15% increased Ice Lance from FoF, IL damage doesn't change at all, yet you added it in the calculation there, how come?

#50 Cabrian

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 03:43 PM

So, with the soft crit cap for Frost being 34% (taking crit suppression into account), does that means that we should aim for a 18% crit rating from gear/Piercing Ice if deciding to using glyphed Molten Armor?

18% +
1% from Kings/GotW, Flask of the Draconic Mind, Int food +
5% Elemental Oath (or similar) +
5% Critical Mass (or similar) +
5% Glyphed Molten Armor

Or have I made some multiplicative/additive maths mistake?

#51 Zersto

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 03:50 AM

So, with the soft crit cap for Frost being 34% (taking crit suppression into account), does that means that we should aim for a 18% crit rating from gear/Piercing Ice if deciding to using glyphed Molten Armor?

18% +
1% from Kings/GotW, Flask of the Draconic Mind, Int food +
5% Elemental Oath (or similar) +
5% Critical Mass (or similar) +
5% Glyphed Molten Armor

Or have I made some multiplicative/additive maths mistake?


Shatter takes the crit rate on your character pane and multiplies that. Critical Mass is a debuff on the mob, it won't be multiplied by Shatter.

#52 Eerion

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:24 AM

So that means that soft crit cap is 21,67% (5% from critical mass removed from total. Then tripled elemental oath and glyphed molten armor. That in total gives 35%. So 65%/3 = 21,67% crit rating. This include all food, flask and BoK/MotW buffs, so printed crit will be slighty lower).
Still how does more advanced calculations show this change? Somehow (especially doe to DF nerf) I can't shake off thought that frost PvE still got nerfed

#53 Anubisblack

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 09:26 AM

Shatter takes the crit rate on your character pane and multiplies that. Critical Mass is a debuff on the mob, it won't be multiplied by Shatter.


Why wouldn't Critical Mass be multiplied by Shatter? Can someone please confirm that?

Shatter takes your critical strike chance on the current target and tripples it, so it is logical the 5% increased critical strike chance on the target will be also used in the calculation. Otherwise we won't be looking for the 33.34% cap, but the 36.67% cap (95%/3= 31.67%). Also, you can see on the Rawr stats tab that your critical strike chance is 5% higher with Critical Mass ticked and the optimizer works around 33.34% cap.

#54 farmmann

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:05 PM

Hi
Im having issues with my ffo. i target and cast it at the beginning of encounters and recast it as the cd is available however, it seems like half the time it just fizzles out and does nothing. im not hit caped but can hit heroic targets(up to lvl 87) 100% is this a resistance issue from the targets? or is there a bug reported ive missed ? thanks

#55 Hibbo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:21 PM

Wait with casting your Frostfire Orb till the mob/boss is not moving anymore.

#56 Gilthanor

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:04 AM

Hi
Im having issues with my ffo. i target and cast it at the beginning of encounters and recast it as the cd is available however, it seems like half the time it just fizzles out and does nothing. im not hit caped but can hit heroic targets(up to lvl 87) 100% is this a resistance issue from the targets? or is there a bug reported ive missed ? thanks


While casting it at a non-moving boss like the previous poster said is helpful, the problem is that the orb spells have pathing issues. If there's anything that prevents the terrain from being perfectly smooth (any dips or ridges on the floor) the orb can get stuck, causing it to despawn. This happens to me pretty often, but the small ridge in the floor of Maloriak's room is the best example that comes readily to mind. I find myself making sure that I move up onto his little platform before I cast Flame Orb so it doesn't get "stuck" and despawn.

#57 elusivedotone

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:59 AM

Why wouldn't Critical Mass be multiplied by Shatter? Can someone please confirm that?

Shatter takes your critical strike chance on the current target and tripples it, so it is logical the 5% increased critical strike chance on the target will be also used in the calculation. Otherwise we won't be looking for the 33.34% cap, but the 36.67% cap (95%/3= 31.67%). Also, you can see on the Rawr stats tab that your critical strike chance is 5% higher with Critical Mass ticked and the optimizer works around 33.34% cap.


Im also wondering about this if anyone can confirm or shed light on this.

#58 iwog

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:39 AM

While casting it at a non-moving boss like the previous poster said is helpful, the problem is that the orb spells have pathing issues. If there's anything that prevents the terrain from being perfectly smooth (any dips or ridges on the floor) the orb can get stuck, causing it to despawn. This happens to me pretty often, but the small ridge in the floor of Maloriak's room is the best example that comes readily to mind. I find myself making sure that I move up onto his little platform before I cast Flame Orb so it doesn't get "stuck" and despawn.


There doesn't even have to be any visible dips or ridges, I've found that during Slabhide in Stonecore that unless you're right on top of the boss your flame orb will get stuck and de-spawn and you mirror images will all stack directly on top of each other. Yes this is during the first phase before he casts any rock pillars, and yes it might only be on a dungeon boss but it highlights a key flaw with the flame orb that could arise. If any bosses are implemented in future raids that have temporary LOS mechanics that appear then our flame orb may turn out to be completely useless during these fights.

#59 Anubisblack

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 10:41 AM

Im also wondering about this if anyone can confirm or shed light on this.


I meant that statement to be more categorical. If anyone can confirm that Critical Mass no longer gets multiplied by Shatter it would be groundbreaking. It has always been and is included in Shatter.

#60 Floppy

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 12:00 AM

What does the sims say about using BrainFreeze proc with Fingers of Frost in 4.0.6? Is there still a point in saving 1 Fingers of Frost charge for possible BrainFreeze procs, or would one be better off going out of one's way to Ice Lance first and use the BrainFreeze only once the Fingers of Frost charges are spent?




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