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Frost Mage Discussion [Cataclysm]


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#121 Kyrilon

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 05:48 PM

Do you mean he does not become invisible at all or becomes invisible, but continues casting so to reengage again? If it is the latter, this has happened pre-4.2 as well, you can add /petpassive into your invisible-macro, which will fix this behaviour. I used that macro before and after 4.2 and did not notice any difference, but I haven't raided as Frost lately, since I found it easier to get 45k+ hits on Shannox's add with arcane spec.


I'll have to check tonight. I've got him set on Assist, so I'll try it with both that and Defensive stance and see if that makes any difference.

Agree on Arcane being a better choice for breaking Face Rage, especially with the CD on DF being 30 seconds and Face Rage being called every 26-27 seconds. However, I tried Arcane and almost fell asleep, and we've already got one Arcane mage in our raids, so I'm all about diversifying.

#122 Blueobelisk

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 04:17 AM

Speaking of tier 12 four piece bonus, it was concluded in the fire Mage thread that the hot steak increase went up by 30% (10% to 40%). I haven't seen anyone mention it, but does anyone know how much more brain freeze proc is increased? Is it assumed to be 30% as well? (Making the proc chance go from 15% to 45%)


without 4T12 on a 300s fight
[TABLE=head]||BF 15%|FoF 20%|%dps
Freeze|12||24
FFO-tick|90|13|18|3%
DF|11|||12%
FB|155|23|31|40%
FFB|36||7|19%
IL|44|||19%
Ignite-tick|72|||7%
||36|80|
[/TABLE]

with 4T12 on a 300s fight
[TABLE=head]||BF 30%|FoF 20%|%dps
Freeze|12||24
FFO-tick|90|27|18|3%
DF|11|||10%
FB|155|46|31|35%
FFB|73||14|33%
IL|14|||5%
Ignite-tick|146|||13%
||73|87|
[/TABLE]


I see this information but it leaves me with some questions. When running the numbers, without the tier 12 4 piece set it comes up to be around a 16.2% proc chance for Brain Freeze, which is pretty close to the 15% estimated by the 3 point talent. That is to say, 36 FFBs out of 222 hits (where hits include Pets Freeze, DF, FB, and IL).

When I check the proc chance with the tier 12 4 piece set, it comes up to be around a 38% proc chance; 73 FFBs / 192 "Frost" hits (the same ones mentioned before). Yet you put the header as 30% FFB proc.

Did I mess up the math or is that inaccurate? 8% is a large difference between estimated and actual proc, especially over such a large set of hits.

#123 Nathyiel

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 09:57 AM

This math was made very early on the PTR. I don't have T12 actually, so I can't confirm it.

Actually, I don't know how Bf and 4t12 interact. We can believe it to be additive (15%+15%=30%) or not (1.15*1.15=32.25%). The difference is lower than RNG.

#124 Zrow

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 05:55 AM

Saw your calculations of racials Nathyiel, But what about the troll 5% damage. I checked up that beth'tilac is a beast. They've made alot of the encounters to elementals, even Shannoxs dogs are elementals *.* .

Im not sure about Majordomo Staghelms different forms if he becomes a beast or just still counts as humanoid.

#125 Nathyiel

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 07:38 AM

My test is made with SimC on the standard target. With this, we are able to compare with a majority of fight.

Versus a beast, it's obvious that Troll will be ahead, by far. But a BiS race choice can't be made for only One fight.

If you have look closely to my result, you will have see that all race are between 1% dps on the very theoretical Patchwerk fight and have a maximum of ~0.9% on the more realist Helterskelter fight.

#126 Guest_Alazin_*

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:54 PM

I've just started testing the change of rotation posted during the PTR phase of this tier earlier, but from what I'm seeing I think its going to be a very large difference in dps to not double FFO. There are quite a lot of wasted brain freezes with the 4 piece. Currently the rotation im testing is as follows:

FBolt/Pet attack + Trinket macro
Pet Freeze
Deep Freeze
FFO
Icy Veins
Mirror Image
Cold Snap
Deep Freeze
FBolt until FFO ends then 2nd FFO.

#127 ZumoO

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 12:46 PM

I wrote a small app for those wanting to calculate their Shatter cap :
http://opendevelop.f...er/Shatter.html

#128 Kyrilon

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:45 PM

Man, this thread gets so little love...

Just picked up 4pcT12 last night, and am wondering what others' experience and best practice with it is. Are you dumping BF as soon as it pops, or are you maintaining a "largely the same" rotation with just a larger percentage of damage coming from BF w/FoF?

I get the sense that it will feel more like the Staghelm opening salvo and I'll be pushed from 45-50% Frostbolt damage down to 35-40%, with BF picking up most of that slack.

Thoughts?

#129 Light4

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:19 PM

I play frost in T12H (3/7) content and I am quite fond of it, although the numbers are a little bit smaller than for arcane. However, we are no hardcore raid and I still do competitive damage and find it much more fun to play, but your mileage may vary. At least mobility is a little bit better for frost, so the difference in dps to arcane is probably smaller than what SimC calculates for Patchwork fights.
At least for my gear I checked SimC and using BF immediately is more dps than keeping it for FoF.
Also I rawr'ed DF/FFB/MA and DF/FFB/FrB glyph setups and the former is ahead by about 200dps for respectively optimized gearsets. Please keep in mind that when using SimC with frost that it is indeed using FrB as filler. The standard action list with DF/FFB/MA still has FFB as filler, which is a loss of about 2k dps.

#130 Nathyiel

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 10:00 AM

I just see your issue on SimC and you have made a mistake. You used the Frostfire's profile instead of the Frost one.

For the glyph case with T12, it's a difficult choice:
  • MA's glyph is better on single target fight with +2% crit for all spell but -3% for FB.
  • FB's glyph is good on a boss +2 add type fight because of Piercing Chill.

4.3 will be released in a few weeks now (PTR built marked as releases), we have to see how the 4pcT13 work and what will be it's influence (glyph, rotation, etc). On the last built, Iv have it's cooldown reduced by 15s for each stack of Stolen Time. It's means that it's CD will be reduce to 0 when we obtain the 10th stacks. The game play will change to 2 phases: stacking buff (for 17s to 34s) and a burst phase. With this much haste, we will burn a lot of mana so we will have to see if we can continue with Molten Armor + Evocation or if we will have to switch from Molten Armor to Mage Armor..

edit> For those who think that IV will bring us under GCD, we will have to reforge Haste to cap it at 25% raid buffed (50%/20% = 25%). So we will have to obtain 16.71% (2139.83) haste from gear so I don't see a problem here.

#131 Nathyiel

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 02:53 PM

Even with a very poor DPS, we could think about stat weight.

With the T13 stuff, we can soft capping both Haste and Crit.
  • Crit < 900 (837 with T13H)
  • Haste = 2140 (1993 for goblin)

Further Haste will bring all instant under GCD with Icy Veins.

#132 fateswarm

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:02 PM

I'd like to point out something interesting about this spec since I assume most people haven't seen it in raiding lately: By running a LFR for fun without changing from frost spec PvP, I noticed something peculiarly advantageous in Hagara: The few seconds it gives with x 2 damage in the beginning of a phase, are especially suited for frost since its medium burst does not need any build up. Arcane is theoretically higher burst in PvE, however it needs to build up 4 stacks (of AB) to be optimal. Frost can go immediately to a Deep Freeze and perhaps a few Ice Lances or Frostfires.

Now, I do not know if that would give it an advantage in overall, but it might be worth a look for further scrutiny.

#133 notoriousthief

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

Even with a very poor DPS, we could think about stat weight.

With the T13 stuff, we can soft capping both Haste and Crit.

  • Crit < 900 (837 with T13H)
  • Haste = 2140 (1993 for goblin)

Further Haste will bring all instant under GCD with Icy Veins.


Is this assuming 2/3 or 3/3 NWP?

#134 Nathyiel

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:00 AM

2/3 NWP.

And the 5% haste buff in your raid, of course

#135 Heef

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:03 PM

Bump to get this thread back within the usual 30-days filter.

#136 hikarodesu

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:49 AM

With the 30% nerf rolling in a couple weeks ago I decided to begin experimenting with frost. I know there aren't a lot of us... :P but I was hoping there might be some floating around to spark up some discussions about this under-played spec.

I'm not 100% sure how strong spreading ignite/FFB dot is, but I've been running a 0/9/31 build including impact, over getting 2% haste in arcane. Coming from playing fire and the good ol' DoT spreading, I was wondering if anyone could persuade me otherwise. :P
The biggest problem I see is when you're spreading FFB on most fights other than Yor'Sahj (presuming you hard-cast FFB to ensure it's still rolling on the boss) you will be spreading ignite + 1 stack of FFB, and not a 3 stack.

However it should still provide more dps, particularly on madness thanks to additional spellweave procs from the DoT on the bloods.

Another thing I have been doing is hard-casting FFB around 4.5 seconds remaining on the DoT to ensure it gets refreshed without dropping the 3 stacks.

The most irritating part of frost so far has been wipes, where the overly long cooldown of Cold Snap isn't ready in-between fights, stopping you from being able to use it twice on most fights. Luckily, with all these nerfs, wipes don't exactly happen too often.

#137 Nathyiel

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:50 AM

In 5.0.4, the crit suppression has been confirmed: -1% by level difference.

For the Shatter cap, it have been precised how it work:
(base_crit - crit_reduction) x2 +50%

So for 100% crit on a boss (-3% crit), the shatter cap is 28%.




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