Jump to content


Photo

Priest Simple Questions/Simple Answers: Cataclysm


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
365 replies to this topic

#41 Anh

Anh

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 34 posts

Posted 28 December 2010 - 03:29 PM

Thank you, that helps a lot.

Given a baseline Int of 5000 and Spirit of 2200 leads to mana regen of 3631.

With the Core of Ripeness usage whenever it is up (average to 321 spirit). The mana regen is 4010. 379 mp5 higher than baseline.

Thus, I can conclude that Core of Ripeness is better than Tyrande's Favorite Doll in every situation. (Now I don't feel too bad about not getting the Doll from Archeology.)

#42 Raiek

Raiek

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 28 December 2010 - 08:09 PM

Had a question about staffs versus main hand + off-hand for healing. I've been comparing the stats on the two, and with the new +100 int enchant to off-hands, will there ever be a situation in which we would want a staff versus a mace and off-hand? Even when comparing an epic staff versus a blue i346 mace and off-hand, the stats still seem VERY close. The epic gets a bit more spellpower, but still has over 50 less intellect. Is there something about staffs that I'm missing?


I was wondering if anyone has looked into this any further? I still can't find a good reason to ever choose a staff over a mace and offhand with enchants being the way they are. Is this just the way things are now, with mace+off hand always being preferable?

#43 Damien

Damien

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:13 PM

Chelley's Staff of Dark Mending
vs
Andoros, Fist of the Dragon King + Heartbound Tome

Staff gives:
+7 Stam
+5 Int
-3 Spirit
+17 Mastery
+1 Spell Power


Chelley's Staff of Dark Mending
vs
Andoros, Fist of the Dragon King + Scepter of Ice

Staff gives:
+7 Stam
+5 Int
+4 Spirit
+4 Mastery
+1 Spell Power


So with the +100 Int to Off-Hand enchant, indeed there is no doubt that the combo is superior to staves. Blizzard needs to add a more powerful "Enchant 2-Hander" enchant like they did in the last expansion. Don't know why they equalized the stats and left it out this time.

#44 sylvestro

sylvestro

    the braided one

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 29 December 2010 - 01:48 PM

Related to Damien`s post (thanks for the info)
Has anyone seen posts or testing regarding MH enchants both for healing and damage?

Thanks in advance.

#45 Raiek

Raiek

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:37 PM

Related to Damien`s post (thanks for the info)
Has anyone seen posts or testing regarding MH enchants both for healing and damage?

Thanks in advance.


For healing and damage enchants, our choices are going to be either Heartsong (procs 200 spirit for 15 seconds on spellcast) and Power Torrent (procs 500 int for 12 seconds on spell cast). Power Torrent is very, very expensive as an enchant, however. It requires Hypnotic Dust (14), Heavenly Shard (8), Maelstrom Crystal (4) and just for the enchanter to learn it, he needs to spend five Maelstrom Crystals. Heartsong is significantly cheaper, at Hypnotic Dust (9), Greater Celestial Essence (3), Heavenly Shard (3), Volatile Life (3).

Both Disc and Holy threads have discussed it, but iirc Heartsong is considered slightly better for Holy and Power Torrent slightly better for Disc. As for Shadow, if you can't get Power Torrent I'd imagine the next best would be Hurricane, which increases your haste by 450 for 12 seconds on a spellcast or melee hit. The mats for this are also far cheaper: Heavenly Shard (6), Volatile Air (6). Hope this helped!

#46 Balkoth

Balkoth

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 244 posts

Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:58 PM

Is this just the way things are now, with mace+off hand always being preferable?


Sort of.

For a given tier, a main hand + off hand from that tier is superior due to the 100 int enchant. And a main hand from that tier plus an off hand from the previous tier is slightly better than a staff from the current tier. But a staff from the current tier is better than a main hand plus off hand which are both from the previous tier.

So a staff is a nice upgrade in a new tier...it is just replaced by a main hand as soon as you get one. In the current situation, a 359 staff > 346 main hand + 346 off hand. See below:

Staff of Sorcerer-Thane Thaurissan

341 int
228 crit
228 haste
1955 spellpower

versus

Scepter of Power and Apple-Bent Bough

297 int
198 haste
198 spirit
1729 spellpower

Cancel common stats and you get (for the staff):

+44 int
+30 haste
+228 crit
+226 spellpower
-198 spirit

Even when you add in the +100 int, the staff is still better.
The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.

#47 TrlstanC

TrlstanC

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 44 posts

Posted 29 December 2010 - 07:44 PM

Both Disc and Holy threads have discussed it, but iirc Heartsong is considered slightly better for Holy and Power Torrent slightly better for Disc. As for Shadow, if you can't get Power Torrent I'd imagine the next best would be Hurricane, which increases your haste by 450 for 12 seconds on a spellcast or melee hit. The mats for this are also far cheaper: Heavenly Shard (6), Volatile Air (6). Hope this helped!


After comparing the two enchants using my current gear, I'd actually rate them very similiar for both Holy and Disc.

Heartsong: 25% to proc, with 20sec ICD, average uptime of about 55% or about the same as 108 Spirit. This is nice because it's 1. Cheap and 2. Fairly consistent. I'd expect about 1,100 m/min from it, which means one or two extra casts before I go OOM depending on the fight length.

Power Torrent: 33% to proc, with 45sec ICD, average uptime of about 25% or about the same as 125 Int. This is much more expensive for the mats, and the buff is much spikier; you're pretty much going to have it for 12 secs out of every 60, so if those 12 seconds line up with high damage phases, or when you're using shadowfiend or HoH, it's much better. For regen I'd expect about 500 m/min from it, and about 1,250 h/min (this varies wildly depending on what spells you happen to be casting when it procs from 500ish to 2000ish).

So, if you think that at the end of the boss fight you're most likely would've been OOM, but 2 more GHeals will keep the tank up long enough to get your loots, than Heartsong is probably the better choice. On the other hand if you think that you might be able to save someone by getting lucky and pumping out an extra 1 or 2k in heals during a high damage phase, than Power Torrent is what you want to gamble on (assuming you've got the gold).

#48 elidion

elidion

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:55 PM

I have 2 questions,

As a goblin priest with 3/3 Darkness I have 4% Haste, Raid buffs give me an additional 5% for a total of 9% so if i'm supposed to be aiming for 12.2% haste raid buffed, I only need an additional 3.2% haste? Or is that "soft cap" counted after talents and abilities? Just looking for clarification here

2nd question is about the mastery ability Echo of Light for holy priests, I have read that there are some bugs regarding clipping issues, I was always skeptical while tank healing from using smaller heals like CoH or PoM because it puts such a small EoL on the tank but I read that CoH resetting it is a bug? Are multiple heals supposed to stack up on the EoL? I remember reading somewhere that this was the case, that if for example you have a small heal that gives you 100 healing a tick, and after 3 ticks you cast a heal that does 500 a tick, that the leftover 300 "would be" healing gets stacked onto that so the new EoL is 550 a tick.

As cool as that sounds it seems unrealistic as I could just spam heal all day on a tank and keep building that up so is there a cap? Is there some trick to the mechanics I don't understand, the main thing I am wondering is a nice Greater Heal crit will provide a substantial EoL on the target, but if it is followed by a weak non crit heal or CoH did I just lose out on all that extra healing?

#49 Carnathagia

Carnathagia

    Piston Honda

  • Allied Members
  • 168 posts

Posted 30 December 2010 - 10:02 PM

I have 2 questions,

As a goblin priest with 3/3 Darkness I have 4% Haste, Raid buffs give me an additional 5% for a total of 9% so if i'm supposed to be aiming for 12.2% haste raid buffed


Haste buffs are not additive. You have 1.03 * 1.01 * 1.05 = 1.0923 or 9.23% haste, which means you need 1.125 / 1.0923 = 1.0299 or 2.99% (~383 rating) haste from gear to reach 12.5%.
Emraldè - Resto/Balance Druid - Carnathagia - Holy/Disc Priest - Liltankh - Prot/Fury Warrior
Jovavich - Arcane/Fire Mage

#50 Elimbras

Elimbras

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 477 posts

Posted 30 December 2010 - 10:06 PM

Haste effects are multiplicative, not additive. Check in the compendiums for a longer explanation.

For Echo of Lights, I guess that the answer is also in the compendium. But the short answer is "Yes, the mechanism you describes is really what is applied" and "No, with this mechanism, Echo of Light can't stack to infinity". For the second part, you need to realize that hots will tick between the two heals. Hence, the "buffer" will decrease, and then be increased when the new heal lands. If you consider 2s heals, you have two ticks arriving. If the "mastery part" of the new heal is precisely two ticks of the current buffers, this means that the buffer is at the same amount just before these two ticks and just after the new heal (you lost two ticks, you gained the same amount from the heal). If the buffer is larger, the decrease due to the two ticks will be larger than the amount gained from the heal, and the buffer decreases. Reciprocally, if the buffer is smaller, it will be increasing. Hence, there is a "natural cap" which corresponds to 10% of your maximum hps.

#51 Geofram

Geofram

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 31 December 2010 - 08:30 AM

There were a few comments in the compendium's replies mentioning that going for 12.5% haste was no longer correct.
IS there still a marker I should be shooting for as a holy priest? Or should I just value spirit > int > haste > mastery > crit in some form or fashion?

I've been ranking available loot with this nifty tool for some time.
Here is my current setup for it: GuildOx Loot Rank

I guess my question is. Am I weighting stats correctly? Not so much the math, just in priority.
Also, is there a benchmark/cap I should be aiming for?

#52 Elerion

Elerion

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 861 posts

Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:28 AM

TLDR:
Holy: Int = spirit >>> haste/mastery
Disc: Int > spirit >>> haste/crit


Longer explanation:
Haste is an oddball stat in the priority since it only affects your throughput and reaction. Most of the other stats directly affect your longevity, which is the main issue in current content. Haste can also have a meta effect on longevity by allowing you to use slower, more efficient spells, but that effect is hard to measure.

Spirit is conversely the only stat that only affects longevity, not throughput. Also like Haste, it can have a meta effect on throughput by allowing you to use faster, less efficient spells, but this is also hard to measure. As Holy, gemming spirit over int is an accepted choice and one I used for a little while, but it does reduce your versatility slightly and hurts on throughput focused fights.

With the current mediocre efficiency of Renew, I would ignore the "haste plateau" of 5 tick renew unless you are very close to it anyhow. Gearing specifically to reach that level is very unimportant in practice.

The only thing that's certain is that intellect is always fantastic, and that spirit is so strong for longevity that every piece of equipment should have spirit on it. The best item is 99% of the time the item with the highest ilevel that also has those two stats.

For the third stat, it becomes harder. If you feel like you need more throughput, focus on haste. If you feel like you need more longevity, focus on mastery (or crit as disc). Personally, as we're moving through the raid game, I feel like haste is more often than not the best choice.

Rough priority order:
Holy: Int = spirit >>> haste/mastery
Disc: Int > spirit >>> haste/crit

#53 Kashir

Kashir

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 166 posts

Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:00 AM

2nd question is about the mastery ability Echo of Light for holy priests, I have read that there are some bugs regarding clipping issues, I was always skeptical while tank healing from using smaller heals like CoH or PoM because it puts such a small EoL on the tank but I read that CoH resetting it is a bug? Are multiple heals supposed to stack up on the EoL? I remember reading somewhere that this was the case, that if for example you have a small heal that gives you 100 healing a tick, and after 3 ticks you cast a heal that does 500 a tick, that the leftover 300 "would be" healing gets stacked onto that so the new EoL is 550 a tick.

As cool as that sounds it seems unrealistic as I could just spam heal all day on a tank and keep building that up so is there a cap? Is there some trick to the mechanics I don't understand, the main thing I am wondering is a nice Greater Heal crit will provide a substantial EoL on the target, but if it is followed by a weak non crit heal or CoH did I just lose out on all that extra healing?

The mechanic for Echoes of Light is pretty simple, and as far as I know there's no bugs or tricks.

When you cast a direct heal, it recalculates the new "Echoes of Light" HoT to be: total healing = current remaining EoL + new EoL, then spreads it over 6 seconds.

So if you have a 20% Mastery bonus and you cast a 10k heal on a fresh target, they will gain EoL for 2k over 6 seconds, or ~333 ticks.

3 seconds later, you cast another 10k heal. They still have 1k worth of EoL remaining (3 seconds @ 333), so the new total is 3k over 6 seconds, or ~500 ticks. You haven't lost any of the EoL ticks from your first heal; it's just been stretched out a little.

EoL is like a rolling average of your heals over the last 6 seconds. If you cast bigger heals, it will grow. Cast smaller heals, it will shrink. Spam the same heal, and it will be flat. In practice, just think of it as a flat X% bonus to your direct heals (the usual precautions about HoT overhealing apply, of course).

#54 Raiek

Raiek

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:33 PM

I've been a bit frustrated on Cataclysm in terms of priest's apparent lack of good CC. I wish Shackle worked on more than Undead, but it is what it is. However, what I am a bit curious about is Mind Control. In Vanilla and BC, I'd use this as CC and a lot of times it could be pretty effective. It kills your DPS but, depending on the add you MC, might equal out with the kind of abilities it has. My question is, is there really a whole lot you can MC in Cataclysm? If I recall, it only works on humanoids, which there don't seem to be a whole lot of. I figure this would only be viable as shadow, unless the healer could MC an add that had heal abilities itself.

Has anyone had any good experience using Mind Control in Cataclysm as a form of CC? Or are we mostly regulated to just pure DPS for most dungeons/raids?

#55 Kashir

Kashir

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 166 posts

Posted 04 January 2011 - 11:29 PM

I can't speak for raids, but in heroics I use mind control very frequently in any dungeon with humanoids, which is pretty much everything except SFK where we can shackle. Even VP has some MCable mobs toward the end.

It varies from mob to mob, but generally it won't kill your DPS. Mobs do a lot more damage than players, but we don't see most of it because tank mitigation is very high. Some mobs (the Witches in ToTT, for example) are capable of truly magnificant damage because, unlike players, the enemy mobs are never rude enough to interrupt your casts.

It's also a lot safer than BC, because our inflated health pools mean the mobs will never instagib you when the MC breaks. You'll take a few hits, but I've never died in the break -> recast period.

And besides which; it's a hell of a lot of fun! How many specs get to change class every pull?

As a healer, you can use MC effectively on mobs which spam heals. Again, it's not too risky; you'll never die between break -> recast, and their heals are so obscenely OP that everyone else will be at full health too.

The other place MC is quite neat is those horrible goblin pulls leading up to the third boss in ToTT. MC pull, and the pack will waste their poison blasts on your poor sacrificial goblin, making the spike damage a non-issue. This one works fine as either healer or DPS.

#56 Geofram

Geofram

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 05 January 2011 - 02:51 PM

There are plenty of available mind control targets, though I usually only offer to do it as shadow. It's nice in deadmines and BRC, and really shines in some of the throne of the tides pulls. It's important to communicate with the tank and make sure he understands how it works, but most will find it valuable.

#57 Guest_0rz_*

Guest_0rz_*
  • Guests

Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:06 PM

I am looking for a good one button macro (if it is possible) that can be used to cancel my Chakra State and cast Chastise. Manually clicking off the Chakra buff is a pain. Thanks.

#58 switch_foot4

switch_foot4

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:25 PM

I've searched the internet for this and every other site gives me a different answer

How does mastery round? does it round to the nearest whole number? Or is each decimal counted?

#59 SpiritOfRedemption

SpiritOfRedemption

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:11 PM

I am looking for a good one button macro (if it is possible) that can be used to cancel my Chakra State and cast Chastise. Manually clicking off the Chakra buff is a pain. Thanks.


I tried this macro, but it will give an error "spell not learned":

/cancelaura Chakra: Sanctuary
/cancelaura Chakra: Serenity
/cast Holy Word: Chastise

I would probably just take out Holy Word: Chastise and put it on a separate button. I'm not a star on macros though, perhaps a more experienced person can make one for you that does work.

I've searched the internet for this and every other site gives me a different answer

How does mastery round? does it round to the nearest whole number? Or is each decimal counted?


I tested this the other day. From what I could see, each decimal is counted. So you don't have to reforge to get as close to a round number as possible, just grab as much mastery as you like. :) I'll admit my testing was rather limited though, I don't know the exact math behind it. What I did was reforge so that either I would be just above a round number for Mastery, or just below it. You would expect a significant drop in healing from Echo of Light if it rounds down to whole numbers, but I barely noticed a difference...

#60 Hamsda

Hamsda

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 161 posts

Posted 07 January 2011 - 06:27 AM

I've searched the internet for this and every other site gives me a different answer

How does mastery round? does it round to the nearest whole number? Or is each decimal counted?


Mastery will not be rounded. It takes every decimal into account even if it just displays a whole number.
A friend tested it with his paladin tank and got slightly higher block percentages when going from x.1 to x.7 mastery.
There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users