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The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS

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#1 Exemplar


    The One-Eyed Man

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:03 PM

Retribution Concordance (RetCon) 2/1/12| 4.3 - Moar Dargons!

This original post is always a Work In Progress. That said, it aims for a high degree of accuracy at any given time. "Game experience may change during online play."

Please Do Not Ask for the following
  • BiS item or item comparison. You can discover this for yourself via any of the available tools.

Do not expect answers to these questions.

Welcome to the Retribution Concordance (RetCon) for 4.3. This information is thanks to the frequent posters on these boards, who are too numerous to name. All credit is due to those who have spent hours researching and testing - any errors in typing or comprehension are mine. Please PM me for suggestions, typo reports, or other corrections.
=Cataclysm/4.0.1 Changes=
  • All DoT effects are affected by haste. Yes, this means the SoT DoT, too.
  • Plate Specialization added; Increases your primary attribute (Str) by 5% while wearing Plate in all armor slots.
  • Ability queuing based on your latency now extends beyond actions with a cast time and to instants.
  • There is no longer a small amount of unavoidable partial resists on boss level mobs.
  • Librams no longer provide bonus to specific spells - they are stat items with a socket. New Relics will be used interchangeably between Death Knights, Druids, Paladins, and Shaman. There will not be Libram usable only by Paladin.

4.3 Changes

  • Judgement of Truth increases from (Censure Stack * 10%) to (Censure Stack * 20%). This should be about a 33% overall increase (150% to 200%).
  • Sanctified Retribution (talent) only increases HoW crit rate by 2/4/6%, down from 20/40/60%.
  • 2H Weap Spec increases from 20% to 25%.
  • BoM increases melee attack power by 20% (formerly 10%).

Cookie Cutter Build is 7/2/(29+2) + 1. There are two optional points in Retribution necessary to reach Zealotry. Then there is one more optional point which can be placed in any tree.

In the demo above the Retribution points were placed into Eye for an Eye as it has been proven to provide slim PvE DPS depending on boss mechanics (random targeted non-AOE spells) and Sacred Shield as a huge add to PvE or PvP survivability. Some choose both points in E4E to absolutely maximize possible DPS. Other talents are utility, such as Guardian's Favor. There are no wrong choices for these points.

The final optional point may be placed in any tree. I personally feel Divinity is never a bad choice. Alternately, this talent point could be used to gain the second tier of a Ret talent you selected for the first optional point (2/2 E4E would be another small DPS increase on some bosses, or Sacred Shield if you already went 2/2 E4E).

Note: Eye for an Eye has been proven to proc from direct magic damage and some untargeted spells. Examples are Shadow Nova from Halfus Wyrmbreaker and Scorching Breath from his Proto-Behemoth, Twilight Blast from the Double Dragons, Magma Spit from Magmaw, Arcane Storm from Maloriak, and so on. Passive auras, such as Blood Queen Lana'thel's from Icecrown Citadel, are not eligible for reflection.

A reasonable number of fights have damage which can reflect. While this is not a large volume of damage, it is still an overall DPS increase to talent E4E. The overall impact is minor - increased utility via another talent is a perfectly valid choice.

Honourable Mention: Acts of Sacrifice - with only one point invested into it, Cleanse will remove ALL snares or immobilizes regardless of debuff type, from Hamstring to Curse of Exhaustion to Feral Charge. This could have raid benefits.

Selfless Healer

Selfless healer is universally a loss of DPS. The bonus % will partially mitigate the loss, but it can never be used for an overall gain of total DPS. A single TV is worth more total damage than a small boost to other attacks for a short time period.

You lose 3 HP from using the Word of Glory itself. You lose around 1 second to the GCD from Word of Glory. To gain DPS you would need to overcome the loss of the TV in 10-11 seconds. Every best-case scenario attempting to model this has shown a loss and the majority of field conditions would be far below best-case scenario.

With the 4.1 change to add a 20 second CD on WoG, you could not sustain 100% up-time on SH even if it was somehow beneficial.4.2 Selfless Healer reduces the CD on WoG to 10 seconds, so it is again theoretically possible to sustain 100% up-time, albeit unlikely.

If you wish to discuss this and push forward the theory that Selfless Healer is a DPS increase, you must bring hard math to the table to defend your viewpoint.


Prime Glyphs all directly impact DPS. The Glyph of SoT appears to be the greatest gain as a free 10 Expertise (300.27 Expertise Rating).

If you are over the Expertise cap, reforge Expertise off of gear in order to utilize the GoSoT to the utmost - see reforging below.

  • Glyph of Templar's Verdict only provides ~11.5% increase, not 15% increase. This is because it is additive with Crusade (1.3 + 1.15 = 1.45) not multiplicative (1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495). It is still our 2nd best Glyph.
  • Glyph of Exorcism will overwrite ("refresh" via log) on new application if re-cast during the duration of the DoT (unused ticks are lost). This rarely occurs and in most (possibly all) cases you receive at least 4 ticks after the refresh. At most you lose 2 ticks on the refresh and in many cases you only lose 1 tick, as the first tick occurs before the new cast refreshes.
  • Note: Glyph of Exorcism inherits Exorcism's ability to auto-crit against Undead and Demons. All ticks generated from the Glyph will crit on Demon or Undead targets.
  • Note: Glyph of SoT changed in 4.2 to also provides expertise while using SoR, so even in AOE situations you do not lose the Expertise.


GoSoT is the best Glyph.
GoTV is the second best Glyph.
GoExo is presently superior to GoCS. As weapons scale across the expansion, it is possible that GoCS could match or pull ahead in a future tier. Through Dragon Soul Heroic gear GoExo is still superior.


No Major Glyph directly increases DPS. Several Major Glyphs impact mana usage. Manipulation of this mana reduction could possibly provide further Consecration usage or make up for loss of JotW from reduced Judgement usage. Ascetic Crusader appears the largest gain in this regard. All others are optional.

With HoW buffed it is now used under AW. This could cause a mana drain. Glyph of HoW would prevent any issues and could be considered useful in the same fashion as Ascetic Crusader.

In a fight which requires heavy interrupt usage, Glyph of Rebuke is a remarkable mana savings.

In a fight with regular magical damage spikes (nearly all of them) the Glyph of Divine Protection can increase survivability/make your healers' jobs easier.


GoAC is greatest persistent mana usage mitigation.
GoHoW is excellent mana usage mitigation for AW and sub-20% phases.
GoRebuke or GoDivProt should be swapped on a per-fight basis depending on the necessity of interrupts.



In theory, Minors don’t impact DPS or mid-fight mana usage. In practice, if there is a necessity to seal swap between SoT and SoR for phases, you would get mana savings by utilizing the Glyphs of Righteousness and Truth. Saved mana means more to be used directly for DPS purposes (even one more Consecration in a fight is a DPS gain).

Single Target

The Ret paladin "rotation" shares something with Wrath - it is priority based. The priority for single-target is one of the following:
Inq > CS > HoW > Exo > TV > J > HW > Cons
Inq > CS > TV > HoW > Exo > J > HW > Cons

Use the sequence which is more advantageous for your own gear. Both spreadsheets presently recommend the first for at least high end gear sets.

Against Undead/Demons the positions of HoW and Exo swap, providing:
Inq > CS > TV > Exo > HoW > J > HW > Cons, or
Inq > CS > Exo > HoW > TV > J > HW > Cons

The fact that Exorcism auto-crits when used on Undead or Demons and is faster scaling (lesser coefficient modified by large +% bonus, effectively granting higher overall coefficient) causes it to pull ahead of HoW in that scenario.

In both scenarios you do not perform a CS if you have 3 HP, however if you have 2 or less HP and a DivPurp proc you would use the CS before the free TV.

Inq increases Holy Damage when it is up. Modeling and testing shows to begin expecting to refresh at 3 seconds before it ends. You will rarely have Inq expire and those occasions when it does it should only be missing for 2-3 seconds.

In melee range:
Never, ever cast Exo - only use Exo when it is instant from an AoW proc. If AoW has not procced, then Exo has a cast time, mana cost, and vastly reduced damage. Remember during a cast you stop and reset all autoattacks.

If out of melee range (phase transition/funny-business):
Judge if you can. Without AoW Exo drops below Judge. If Judge is on CD, spam cast Exo as mana permits. Do not overcommit on Exo mana usage - ensure you have sufficient mana to Judge for mana regen and CS as soon as you reach target. This is a good time to use Divine Plea to regen sufficient mana for a few extra Exo or to ensure sufficient mana to Judge/CS on fight resumption.

Multiple Target

The AoE rotation is rather similar to single-target, simply replace Crusader Strike with Divine Storm. The rest of the priority stays the same. With Holy Wrath fixed to meteor properly, at 3 targets you should begin using Consecration over HW.

Redcape's modeling shows you should only swap to AoE rotation at 5 or more targets. A more recent test here receives the same results in 4.0.6. 4.1 likely drops this down to 4 targets. If DS successfully hits 4 targets it generates HP, making up the large gap it has had in the past. At hit/expertise cap for Bosses you should have only a slim chance to be parried by an 86/87 (most adds are not skulls), even if they are facing you.
4.2 - My own analysis shows 4 targets is the breakpoint. At 4 targets DS will generate HP, so you do not lose any HP generation. Additionally at 4 targets the additional procs from SoR surpass Censure ticks and the extra SoC procs which are generated from SoT. Thus swapping seals will produce more overall DPS, though less DPS on a single target - if damaging the boss remains the utmost factor it can still be superior to keep SoT running during AOE-cleave phases.


Zealotry provides a special circumstance. During Zealotry all CS earn 3 HP. Your rotation will become CS, TV, Filler, or CS, Filler, TV, as we still use 2 fillers between CS.

With current values for HoW and Exo they may be used over a CS or TV during Zealotry (see priorities above). Continue to follow your core priority sequence in and out of cooldowns. Zealotry does not alter your priority sequence, it just gives you more TV to socket in there.

Try to avoid use of Zealotry during AOE-cleave phases. Divine Storm does not produce 3 HP, so you would lose the benefit of this CD or lose the benefit of proper AOE attacks against available targets.

=Stats and Gearing=
Stat Weights

Redcape's stat weights are here.

My spreadsheet can provide specific stat weights based on your present gear, talents, glyphs, raid buffs, etc. I highly recommend individuals producing their own stat weights rather than relying on some single external value.

Stat Weights float in relation to one another. A solid example are Crit and Mastery. Self-buffed, Crit is more valuable than Mastery: one point of Crit Rating provides more DPS than one point of Mastery Rating. However, once you add in raid buffs (5% Crit aura, MoW/Kings for 5% Agi->Crit) you gain enough Crit that additional Mastery is now superior: one point of Mastery Rating provides more DPS than one point of Crit Rating. Following some single value could have you seeking the incorrect stat for your circumstances.

Crit vs Haste

It's definitive that Str is our best core stat and Mastery is our best Rating stat (once Hit/Exp capped). This leaves Crit and Haste to fight for the Silver medal.

Simcraft reckons that Crit > Haste.
My spreadsheet reckons that Haste > Crit by about the same ratio.

sjogren and I have compared the tools and do not find an overt flaw. We have amicably agreed to let the tools disagree.

This leads to the Crit vs Haste debate becoming a personal choice. It is up to the individual to decide whether they want Mastery > Crit > Haste or Mastery > Haste > Crit. Reforge to whichever view you decide to back or to match the tool you prefer. Alternately seek some threshold of one stat dedicating further points to the other, or seek some level of balance.

Bottom line, the RNG has more impact on our daily results than you will receive from favouring Crit or Haste. Do not expect a definitive answer in the near future, either from tools or empirical testing.

In General

  • Str is king. No rating even approaches the DPS gain of 1 more Str.
  • Cap Hit and Expertise via reforging (not gems).
  • Haste is now uniformly our worst stat - reforge away from it where possible. Debatable, see above.
  • There is an inflection point where you have enough Mastery that more Crit/Haste pulls ahead. At present gear levels and with raid buffs Mastery appears superior to Crit/Haste it is possible to push beyond the Mastery inflection point. Even though gear can push beyond the inflection, it is not very far beyond and a single reforge can swing you back below inflection. Specific tests have only shown 1-5 DPS gain from more detailed reforging. It's perfectly safe to follow a blanket rule of Mastery > Crit/Haste.


Reforging allows you to exchange 40% of a combat rating already on an item and converts it into a combat rating not already on an item. Example: If an item has Crit, you cannot add more Crit, if it has no Crit then you could reforge 40% of another rating (Expertise, Haste, Hit, or Mastery) into Crit. An item with 100 Hit and no Crit could be reforged to 60 Hit and 40 Crit.

Since we cannot reforge any stat into Str, then we focus on our most important stats.

These are your goals, in order.
Hit cap. Under hit cap, reforge the worst* stat into hit.
Expertise cap. If hit capped and under expertise cap, reforge your worst* stat into expertise.
Next best stat. If you are now hit and expertise capped and you have gear that has not been reforged, aim to reforge inferior stats to superior stats.

* Worst is relative. Generally reforging to Hit or Expertise is a good thing, but you can go further in-depth with reforging. For maximum DPS gain either carefully perform math on your gear to most closely reach Hit and Expertise caps (inverse "Price is Right" rules - closest over the cap wins), or use a website/program (such as Rawr, my spreadsheet, or WoW Reforge Calculator & Optimizer) which will offer reforging advice. Reforging Item A from Hit to something else and Item B from something else to Hit may permit values closer to Hit/Exp cap, thus permitting a few additional Rating to Crit, Mastery, and Haste - an overall minor DPS gain.

Set Bonuses

  • [T13 2P] Your Judgement ability now also generates 1 Holy Power.
  • [T13 4P] While Zealotry is active your abilities deal 18% more damage.
  • [T12 2P] Your Crusader Strike deals 15% additional damage as Fire damage over 4 sec.
  • [T12 4P] Increases the duration of your Zealotry ability by 15 sec.
  • [T11 2P] Increases the damage done by your Templar's Verdict by 10%.
  • [T11 4P] Your Inquisition ability's duration is calculated as if you had one additional Holy Power.

Generation of Holy Power from Judgement will ease refreshing Inq at all times, but may make the flow of HP feel unusual compared to 4.0 to present - you will have more finishing moves at your fingertips.

4 piece will require testing to determine - are only active abilities (attacks such as CS, TV, etc) increased by 18%, all attacks (abilities + autoattack), or all damage (abilities + autoattack + Censure, etc). Most likely the last, but we should not assume until tested. Testing has found that only active abilities gain this bonus. Autoattack and Censure ticks do not increase during Zealotry.

Breaking 4T12 means you will go back to GoAK, 10 seconds, Zealotry+AW as the best usage of cooldowns. Stacking Zealotry and AW will be even more advantageous with 4T13, as the 20% and 18% should be multiplicative.

Blizzard has stated that tier bonuses will not lose damage from clipping. If a CS is performed within 4 seconds of the last CS, then the new ticks will be a combination of remainder + fresh.

Example: A CS hits for 1000 damage (easy number). Tier bonus produces a 150 DoT with 2 ticks of 75. You perform a second 1000 damage CS 3 seconds after the first. You have 75 damage remaining and a new 150, total 225. You will now see ticks of 112 and 113. (150 + 150) = 300 = (112 + 113 + 75).

Extended Zealotry increases our burn-time, producing more TV usage. Additionally it permits all of GoAK to be used with Zealotry. Proposed best order is Zealotry, pause 5 seconds, GoAK, pause 5 seconds, Golemblood Potion, Pause 5 seconds, and AW. If Golemblood is on CD then there is a 10 second pause between GoAK and AW.

Visual Aid:
GoAK| | | | | |=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|
Potion| | | | | | | | | | |=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|
AW| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|

Templar's Verdict is around 20% of our total DPS. Thus a 10% gain is approximately a 2% overall DPS boost.

Inquisition lasting an additional 10 seconds provides more Holy Power for TV usage. Using Inq at 1 HP is the greatest gain of HP (100% greater length Inq, compared to 3 HP and 33% greater length), but the greatest loss of GCD. Since letting Inq drop off is a DPS loss, and many refreshes clip Inq by 3-4 seconds (losing a fair portion of the bonus time), the best method is to refresh in the 0-3 second range with presently available HP (1 or 2 - if you have 3 at 3 seconds you can TV, then CS for 1 HP). Occasionally you will be "trapped" into a 3 HP Inq (typically via chain DivPurp procs as Inq is expiring), this is still a DPS increase and it would be better to refresh Inq for 40 seconds than let it expire.

Theory: If Tier item budget is equal to other items of the same iLevel (it appears to be), then the free bonuses should always make 4 piece worthwhile - issues with itemization can be addressed via reforging. If Tier items lose budget to account for bonuses (they do not appear to do so), then bonuses must be worthwhile to make up for lost stats.

So far this theory has proven true. Tier items have the same budgetary value as other items of the same ilevel, thus useful bonuses are icing on the cake. Even bad itemization of a piece or two is overwhelmed by the benefit of the 2 and 4 piece bonuses.

=Gemming and Enchanting=

Str is so far superior to every other stat, that you do not even want to Hit or Expertise cap through gemming. Gem pure Str except in the following situations.

Replacing a single gem with a Str/rating hybrid for a +20 (or greater) Str bonus. No Str loss, 20+ rating gain. Free lunch.
Replacing two gems with Str/rating hybrids for +30 Str bonus. You lose 10 Str for 40 rating. Minor net gain.

Replacing a single gem with a Str/rating hybrid for a +30 Mastery Rating bonus. The loss of 20 Str for 50 Mastery (20 from gem, 30 from bonus) may be a net DPS gain. This will depend on your own stat weighting.
T11: A +20 Mastery Rating bonus is not worth a single hybrid gem. The loss of 20 Str for 40 Mastery is a net DPS loss.
Mid/late T12: A +20 Mastery Rating bonus or a +10 Str bonus becomes worth a single hybrid gem. This includes both Str/Mastery and Str/Hit (allows better reforging).
T13: Many items have 3 gems, thus +30 bonuses. A single hybrid to meet this requirement should uniformly be advantageous.

In general you will see +10 stats for a single socket bonus, +20 for two sockets, +30 for three sockets. Helmets break this rule and may be significantly higher for a single socket (and meta).


is now the superior Ret Meta Gem. The pattern to cut this Meta is a random world drop.

It requires 3 Red gems, so meeting the requirement is more or less a given.

A helm must have a Meta present, even if inactive, to activate socket bonus on that item.


Head|60 Str / 30 Mastery|Wildhammer/Dragonmaw Rep Arcanum
Cloak|65 Crit|Swordguard from Tailoring may be the largest profession damage boost. 50 Crit may be used if you decide 15 extra Crit rating is not worth 5 Maelstrom Crystals.
Shoulder|50 Str/25 Crit|Therazane rep. Inscriptionist-only enchant grants 130 Str.
Chest|20 Stats
Bracers | 50 Str| Leatherworker-only enchant is 130 Str - possibly 2nd largest profession damage boost (behind Tailoring).
Gloves|50 Str
Belt|Free Socket|Free socket is free.
Legs|190 AP / 55 Crit|Only DPS increasing selection.
Feet|50 Mastery or 50 Hit|PoJ makes runspeed enchants moot. 50 Mastery and Hit are interchangeable due to reforging. One may provide 1 or 2 more total ratings by reforging closer to a cap.

Flask: hands down defeats elixirs. Cauldrons (guild or otherwise) provide a stat equivalent which applies the same Flask of Titanic Strength buff.
Potion: being pure Str will be far and away better than any other possible potion. As always, use under AW (and Heroism if possible).
Food: provides 90 Str, so it will be perfectly equivalent to the single person buff from .

Avenging Wrath

Avenging Wrath increases all damage by 20% while in effect. Fully talented this lasts 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown, thus providing a 16.6% effective up-time. While the most impact is granted during Heroism as the increased autoattack rate and decreased CS CD allow more (or more superior) attacks, losing an entire Avenging Wrath during a fight because you delayed for Heroism is a net loss.

During AW, even if the target's health is above 20%, you can use HoW. Make sure to use those HoW that become available.

Details on maximizing buff from these CD with 4T12 are listed under the Set Bonuses section.


Zealotry permits Crusader Strike to grant 3 HP per attack for 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown (35 seconds with 4T12). This shortcuts the rotation to CS, TV, Filler, repeat.

Maximum benefit appears derived by using AW and Zealotry together. The HoW and any Exo procs may "lose" some CS and TV over the course of the buffs, but the overall damage is superior from the combination.

Details on maximizing buff from these CD with 4T12 are listed under the Set Bonuses section.

Guardian of Ancient Kings

Guardian of Ancient Kings provides a stacking Strength buff. The buff stacks to a maximum of 20, providing a 20% bonus to Str. The buff lasts until the Guardian dies or when it expires 30 seconds after cast.

In a CD sequence it is advised to use GoAK first to stack the Str bonus. After 10 seconds you would use AW and/or Zeal. This would provide the maximum Str benefit for the entirety of the AW/Zeal.

Details on maximizing buff from these CD with 4T12 are listed under the Set Bonuses section.


Potions have a 1 minute CD outside of combat. Within combat a potion can only be used a single time. To maximize potion usage, it is possible to pre-pot. This is the practice of using a potion a few seconds before combat engages, such as while the tank is running in. This places you on the 1 minute potion CD, but it immediately begins ticking down as it began outside of combat. Thus 1 minute later, in the middle of the fight, you can again use a potion. This second usage is your combat usage and prevents further potion usage during the fight.

Pre-potting is not a 100% guaranteed DPS increase. Its utility is based partially on tank threat. If the usage of the potion increases your threat to the level where you need to stop/slow DPS, or use HoS then you are losing much of your increase and possibly even incurring an overall loss.

Be especially mindful if you must use HoS during pre-pot duration. Not only are you wasting a GCD during the pot duration on a non-DPS ability, but you are putting HoS on CD for 2 minutes. Remember that HoS reduces current total threat by 2% every second. 2% of 5-10 seconds worth of threat is significantly lower than 2% of 30-60 seconds of threat. An attempt to avoid an early threat issue can lead to a threat issue a minute later and produce further loss of DPS due to throttling.

CD Usage with Pre-potting

If you pre-pot then you may choose to begin CD usage shortly after the pull to stack with this benefit.

While this gains some additional bonus from the Str bonus of the potion and can permit an additional CD in a fight (first CD used earlier, the timer may be up to re-use an extra time before end of fight), it does have some drawbacks.

Barring lucky DivPurp procs, it is impossible to generate enough HP to put up Inq and engage Zealotry with maximum overlap of the pre-pot. Typically between 3 to 8 seconds of the 20 second pre-pot duration will be lost waiting on the pull or with the tank running in. This gives 22 to 17 seconds of Str buff. Even if DivPurp procs on a Judge as you run in and you immediately engage Zealotry with Inquisition, you are only gaining around 15-18 seconds of Pre-Pot with CDs and have lost a fully buffed TV.

Additionally, potential threat issues with blowing all CD at the very beginning of a fight often require the usage of Hand of Salvation, wasting a GCD on non-DPS purposes, wasting a portion of the CDs. As 2% of total threat is very small at this early phase, Salv does not do much to mitigate threat. Further throttling (delays in using an ability to prevent a threat pull) may be necessary, providing even further loss of potential DPS. Deprecated this argument, since the 5/3 threat boost should make threat a non issue at most times.

Overall popping CD vastly weakens that CD cycle. Assessment seems to be that this is a DPS gain if you have an additional CD usage at the end of the fight due to starting the cycle earlier. This would be the same quantity of full-power CD usage, plus the partial-power initial CD usage. If you are unable to gain an additional CD usage during the fight, then you trade one full-power CD usage for a partial-power CD usage. The partial-power, even under Golemblood, is likely less boost than a full-power CD without throttling or HoS GCD requirement.

  • Partial resists no longer occur.
  • Glancing blows (only on mobs 3+ levels higher than you, such as Skull bosses) happen 24% of the time on auto-attacks. A glancing blow deals 75% damage and cannot crit.
  • Boss level mobs have melee crit suppression of 4.8% and spell crit suppression of ~2.1%. This means you will crit less frequently than the % displayed on your character screen.
  • Autoattack Crit Cap is 71.2% (100% - 24% glancing - 4.8% suppression). Crit above this level would not generate more crits.
  • Ability Crit Cap is either 95.2% (100% - 4.8% suppression) or possibly 100% (104.8% - 4.8% suppression). Either is beyond possibility for Ret Paladin gear.
  • You need 8% Hit to be melee capped. This is 961 hit rating (841 rating as Draenei). This affects all of your melee attacks, preventing them from missing. Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict, Judgement, and Hammer of Wrath all use the melee hit cap.
  • You need 17% Hit to be spell capped. We gain 8% spellhit free with Sheath of Light. This means you need 9%, or 922 hit rating (820 rating as a Draenei) to cap. Note that since this is less than the required melee cap, as long as you cap melee hit you will always cap spellhit. The only abilities that are affected by this are Exorcism, Holy Wrath, and Consecration.
  • You need 781 expertise rating (26 expertise) to prevent all boss dodge. With GoSoT (which since 4.2 also functions when you are using SoR) you need 481 rating (16 expertise) to prevent boss dodge. Humans and Dwarves have 3 free expertise from racials when wielding specific types of weapons, this equals approx 90 expertise rating dropping their caps to 691/391. When attacking from behind only autoattacks, Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict, and Hammer of Wrath can be dodged. Judgement and spell attacks cannot be dodged. If attacking from in front, the boss may still parry at this level of Expertise - avoid standing in front of the boss.
  • Autoattacks, Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict, and Judgement are all considered melee attacks, using Melee Hit and Crit %. Other than Judgement they are susceptible to parry and dodge. Judgement cannot be dodged, parried, or blocked, though it can miss.
  • Hammer of Wrath is ranged Holy damage, but behaves like many Hunter attacks in that it uses Melee Hit and Crit %. It can be deflected (possibly a parry) from the front. It is possible it cannot be dodged, with low cast quantity and most players hit capped there is insufficient data to prove either way.
  • Exorcism, Holy Wrath, and Consecration are spell attacks, using the Spell Hit and Crit %. They cannot be dodged or parried.
  • All Ratings function at a level finer than represented by the paper doll. For example, 170 Mastery would display as 0 Mastery on the paper doll, however you do gain the benefits - it would provide ~0.95% (* 2.1% Holy Damage). This applies equally to Hit, Crit, Expertise, Haste, and Mastery.

Haste and the Soft Cap

The ultimate nirvana of Crusader Strike is to reduce the GCD to 3 seconds. This permits you to use CS, a single filler, then another CS with no wasted time.

Note that since Haste is our worst stat, this is not a goal. As Haste is ideally shed for any other stat, we will not be near a 3 second CD, so we remain at CS + 2 filler. While Haste may (or may not) be a useful stat that we could sometimes reforge to gain, it remains a lower priority and going for the Haste Soft Cap is not inherently desirable.

In a perfect world at L85 it takes around 3978 Haste (with Wrath of Air and JotP) to reduce CS to a 3 second CD. However, with latency a factor, on live the best you can do is cast CS, press an ability during GCD, new GCD begins as soon as first completed. This means the minimum time between two CS is your CS cooldown minus your latency. You would need to push the cooldown below 3 seconds so the cooldown would end in sufficient time for you to send a new CS command to the server and it be accepted precisely 3 seconds after the first occurred.

This value is your Soft Cap. Beyond this point haste is unable to accelerate your CS usage (but still increases Autoattacks).

All the simulations I have run show that anything short of this GCD+single-latency CD continues to produce greater DPS by using a filler between attacks. As little as 0.1 seconds of downtime is worse than delaying the next CS by .9 to 1.4 seconds from another filler. To the best of my knowledge this has been neither confirmed nor denied by any other simulation/spreadsheet/program. Any attempt at in-game testing would be subsumed by RNG effects (Crit, DivPurp), so likely for all intents and purposes in a real scenario skipping fillers would be indistinguishable from using them.

Since you cannot queue during non-GCD CD periods, you are normally stuck with this single-times-latency issue in a CS+filler sequence. When the filler completes you must wait for CS to end its CD, then press the key and wait for latency. If you push CS CD below 3 seconds then you will be able to queue during the second ability's GCD.

Note: Spells have a special rule with the GCD. The spell GCD is reduced by haste (to a minimum of 1 second). If you manage to acquire 1015 Haste your spell GCD becomes 1 second. Thus even with zero latency you would have: CS, Exo, 0.5 seconds empty time, CS. Remember that Exo, HW, Cons, and DP are spells. Judge, TV, DS, and HoW are not and use the full 1.5 GCD every time.

Second Note: Latency displayed in-game is an average. You could be lower than this value the majority of the time with intermittent spikes producing a higher average. Thus your CS would not be soft capped the majority of the time, then suddenly beyond your soft cap when that odd lag spike occurs.

Conclusion: It is unlikely that even in end-tier Cataclysm gear that it will be possible to fully cap your CS CD. Unless several mechanics severely change, do not attempt to meet the cap. Strength is around two times as advantageous as Haste. Any gems which are Haste rather than Str are overall detrimental to your total DPS. Sufficient bonus Str from an item could lead to a Str/Haste gem.

Attacks: Base damage and Coefficients at L85

((AP/14) * Weaponspeed) + Weapon damage

Crusader Strike
(((AP/14) * 3.3 ) + Weapon damage) * 135%

Templar's Verdict
(((AP/14) * Weaponspeed) + Weapon damage) * 235%

Seal of Righteousness
Seal: Weaponspeed + 1.1% AP + 2.2% SP. Cannot crit.
Judgement: 1 + 20% AP + 32% SP.

Seal of Truth
Seal: (((AP/14) * Weaponspeed) + Weapon damage) * 15%

Censure: (2.7% AP + 1.4% SP) per stack. At 5 stacks (13.5% AP + 7% SP). Ticks every 3 seconds, reduced by haste. Censure is now applied by most of our attacks, this leads to far more rapid stacking and for easier target swapping.

Judgement: (1 + 14.21% AP + 22.29% SP) * (100% + (20% * Censure Stacks)). At 5 stacks this is (1.5 + 28.42% AP + 44.56% SP).

Base Damage: average 2741 (exact range yet to be tested extensively and calculated)
Coefficient: 34% of the higher of AP or SP

Holy Wrath
Base Damage: 2402
Coefficient: 61% SP

Calculated as: (2402 + 61% SP) / # targets

Hammer of Wrath
Base Damage: average 4015 (exact range yet to be tested extensively and calculated)
Coefficient: 50% AP + 15% SP

Base damage: 810
Coefficient: 26% AP + 26% SP

Calculated as: (810+ 26% AP + 26% SP) / 10. Dealt every second for 10 seconds (12 seconds with Glyph).

Mastery Damage
This adds an additional 16.8% + 2.1% per Mastery (value / rating) damage of Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Templar's Verdict as Holy Damage.

The original attack (CS, DS, or TV) is calculated, modified by de/buffs and armour. Mastery then takes the appropriate % of this damage and applies that as a flat value. The Mastery cannot Crit - if the base attack Crit then you are taking 17+% of the Crit, so the increase is already factored. The only de/buff which impacts Mastery is Inquisition, since Inq does not modify the base attack (CS, DS, or TV). This prevents Mastery damage from double-dipping on any de/buffs.



When it comes to racials that impact PvE damage, the Alliance is superior.

Heroic Presence now grants only the Draenei the +1% hit. Not a bad bonus, as it will allow additional reforging of stats and more possible gear combinations. A free HoT to marginally increase survivability is of minor PvE or PvP use.

If weaponry is no longer consistently axes (possible with reforging allowing more configuration of badly itemized weaponry), then a human could net 3 free Expertise via Mace or Sword specialization. The free CC break can provide a few additional seconds of DPS (or to move to survival spot) in PvE, and in PvP allows replacement of PvP trinket with something providing more raw Resilience or DPS stats.

Like humans, Dwarves only benefit if the best weapon available is a Mace, which would grant 3 expertise. Again, reforging may allow an inferior itemized mace to surpass another weapon type via this bonus. Stoneform which can clear poison/disease/bleed effects on a 2 minute cooldown could be a minorly useful PvP ability.


Horde paladin racials have little to no impact outside of PvP purposes.

Blood Elf
A silence effect and some extra mana regen. The addition of Rebuke to baseline makes the silence rather unimportant. Mana should be a non-issue, the additional gain is unimportant. Possibly of PvP utility during Rebuke cooldown.

A 2 second AoE stun and higher base health. Possibly useful in PvP, but not for PvE.


Mixology adds an additional 80 Str to . Also provides the benefit of extended flask duration. Raw stats are tied with Blacksmithing, Enchanting, Inscription, and Leatherworking, but the extended duration may be considered an extra edge. Falls behind Blacksmithing due to Epic Gemming.

Alchemists continue to gain Mixology benefits from Cauldrons. The provides the same buff as a normal flask (Flask of Titanic Strength, in our case). Additionally, the duration modifier appears to apply to these, thus at Chug-a-Lug Rank 2 a Flask of Battle would last for 4 hours for an Alchemist.

is a useful starting trinket.


Socket Bracer and Socket Gloves, allow two additional gems. Naturally you want to use . Tied with Alchemy, Enchanting, Inscription, and Leatherworking at 80 Str. 4.3 boosts this to the superior profession. The two free sockets provide 100 Str with epic gems, rather than 80 Str.


Enchant Ring - Strength provides 40 Str. Two rings, total of 80 Str. Tied with Blacksmithing, Alchemy, Inscription, and Leatherworking. Falls behind Blacksmithing due to Epic Gemming.


may be for tanks and DPS. Sockets for and make this an excellent starter helm. Even if new cogwheels are released, these should be obsoleted in 4.2 as their Str should fall behind.
Synapse Springs now boosts Str for 10 seconds every minute. This locks out trinket cooldowns for 15 seconds. Excellent boost but cannot be stacked with trinkets during CD phases, requiring some CD juggling.
Tazik Shocker - Rocket Glove Cataclysm equivalent. Has cast-time, eats GCD, and resets swing timer. This means not effective for DPS gain.
- a new Engineering bomb. Conflicting reports whether the 0.5 second cast time resets swing timer - Ret have stated that it does - see here.


Lifeblood provides 480 haste for 20 seconds, with a 2 minute cooldown. This is average 80 haste or 0.62% at L85. You likely would not want to use this under Heroism as it could cause sub-3-second CS cooldown issues.


Lionsmane Inscriptionprovides 130 Str and 25 Crit. This is 80 strength more than the Greater Inscription of Jagged Stone rep reward. Tied with Alchemy, Blacksmithing, Enchanting, and Leatherworking. Falls behind Blacksmithing due to Epic Gemming.


grant 27 Str over the regular Rare Bold. Multiply by three for 81 Str bonus. This only grants 17 Str over the Epic Bold. Multiply by 3 for 51. 51 < 80, much less 100. Slightly superior to Alchemy, Blacksmithing, Enchanting, Inscription, and Leatherworking. Falls behind all crafting professions due to Epic Gemming.


Draconic Embossment - Strength provides 130 Strength to Bracers. This provides 80 Str beyond the (new) 50 Str bracers enchant. Ties with Alchemy, Blacksmithing, Enchanting, and Inscription. Falls behind Blacksmithing due to Epic Gemming.


Toughness, the self-only perk of Mining, provides 120 stamina and thus absolutely zero damage. No DPS increase, marginal survivability increase.


Master of Anatomy provides 80 Crit rating. This is 0.44% at L85. 80 Crit is less than half the bonus of 80 Str. A weak DPS increase compared to the crafting professions, but still superior to Mining.


Swordguard Embroidery, grants 1000 AP for 15 seconds, and has a 55 second ICD with 15% proc chance. Assume procs every 60 seconds and this would be an average 250 AP, compared to 176 AP (80 Str * 1.05 Plate Specialization * 1.05 Kings * 2 AP per Str) from other professions. However, this replaces the normal cloak enchant. 250 AP - 176 AP = 74 AP is more of an increase than 65 Crit to cloak, so it may be the best profession perk.

4.3 pushes Blacksmithing to 220.5 AP. 220.5 - 176 = 44.5 AP, which should be less of an increase than 65 Crit to cloak. Falls behind Blacksmithing due to Epic Gemming. Still possibly second best profession.

=Macros and Mods=

4 T12 DPS CDs
/castsequence Zealotry, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Avenging Wrath

One button to cast the cooldowns in sequence, rather than at one go. You will need to encompass the timing pauses yourself. You can add a delay element to whisper yourself (only communications can be delayed in a macro) 5 seconds after pressing the button. Otherwise you will need to track the remaining time on activated CD.

Also recognize that TV will not auto-cast when you press this macro. You will need to use your HP manually after engaging Zealotry.

/cast Zealotry
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast Templar's Verdict

At 3 HP this will pop both your DPS cooldowns simultaneously. Stack the macro further by adding in a binding for Use trinkets, a Golemblood Potion, Synapse Springs, or similar.

Avenging Wrath
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast Hammer of Wrath

Note that you may need to press this a few times. Above 20% it often takes your client a short time to confirm that HoW is a legitimate attack when AW was cast. Until your client admits HoW can be cast, it will not perform the attack.

/cast Zealotry
/cast Templar's Verdict

Holy Wrath and Consecration
/castsequence [nomodifier:alt] reset=14 Holy Wrath, Consecration; Consecration

You should generally not drop Consecration if HW is off cooldown. By combining to one button you can save some bar space. Via alt-button you could still cast Consecration, if desired, or if HW is in the last second of CD and you need to juice a few more precious DPS.

Attack Consolidation macro
/cast [nomodifier] Templar's Verdict; /cast [modifier:shift] Inquisition

Allows you to collapse your HP abilities to a single button.


Mods are purely optional. Some players run with none, some with dozens. This section is intentionally light, focusing on two that are of great assistance with Ret specific tasks, namely priority and timing.

CLCRet/CLCInfo will help you properly follow your priority setup and track procs or temporary buffs.

OmniCC is an addon that adds text to items/spells/abilities that are on cooldown to indicate when they'll be ready for use. It integrates nicely with CLCInfo.

Other recommended mods are a threat meter, unit frames, and bar mods - there are many options from which to select. Pulling threat leads to death and zero DPS. Having units and bars in efficient locations reduces eye movement and chance you are looking at the wrong place on your screen at the wrong time - this increases DPS and reduces chance of death.

This author strongly recommends personalization of the UI to fit your needs and playstyle. Designing your own UI rather than using the default or a pre-packaged UI is the difference between a meal at a 3-star Michelin ranked restaurant and McDonalds.

=Frequently Asked Questions=
Q: What seal for PvE?
A: There are now only two PvE seals. Seal of Truth provides superior single-target DPS, while Seal of Righteousness can provide superior multi-target DPS with 4+ targets.

Q: What seal for PvP?
A: There are three possibilities for PvP: Seal of Truth, Seal of Righteousness, and Seal of Justice. SoT requires stacking on a single target and would be inferior for target swaps or long time off target (application from ability usage and not just autoattack mitigates this). SoR provides instant damage and cleave to hit multiple targets. SoJ provides a runspeed debuff, preventing your target from moving faster than 100% speed (i.e. boot enchants, talents, sprint will not boost speed) for 5 seconds after a strike. Which is superior is likely a personal choice depending on team composition, buffs, debuffs, and similar factors.

Q: What does weapon speed do to us? Do we want slow or fast?
A: All things being equal (Str and iLevel, therefore average DPS), we generally still want slow. Seals and Judgement are not normalized to weapon damage, thus the higher damage range on slow weapons is superior.

Q: What weapon enchant?
A: Landslide.

Q: Should I use a fast 1h weapon to stack SoT quicker?
A: No. Switching weapons is a DPS loss. The majority of our damage is physical (Auotattack, CS and TV). The lost damage during the ramp up period is greater than the boost to JoT and SoT DoT ticks. The fact that special attacks also apply stacks of Censure make this even more moot.

Q: Should I swap librams?
A: Librams moving from spell specific bonuses to stat sticks with a socket has finally put the stake in this question. Grab the highest iLvl libram for Ret (hint, it has Str on it).

Q: Should I grab this leather/mail piece of gear?
A: No. Leather and Mail items no longer have Attack Power as a separate stat. Classes naturally wearing those armour types gain 2 AP per Agility. The lack of Attack Power vs. a Plate item with Str means the Leather and Mail will always be inferior. Additionally, if you wear all Plate you get the Retribution Plate Specialization bonus of +5% Str.

Q: Should I take a higher DPS weapon with Agi?
A: No. An Agi weapon of equivalent iLevel should never be as good as the Str weapon due to the same lack of AP issue.

Q: Do you have a Best In Slot gear list?
A: No. This thread will not cover an overall BiS discussion, though may theorycraft specifics of trinket mechanics and possibly identify a specific BiS item. With gemming and reforging making gear highly configurable, a single BiS is far more fluid. Check the rest of the Paladin forum, there may be a BiS themed thread.

=Valuable Resources=
The following tools can all be used for stat and gear comparisons, recommendations of upgraded items, and comparing different attack priorities.

Redcape's Calculator is an Excel Spreadsheet (requires macros). Has been updated for 4.3 tier bonuses and mechanics changes.

My Cataclysmic Retribution Paladin Spreadsheet is an Excel Spreadsheet (requires macros). 4.3 version updated 1/11/2012.

Rawr is a program which can be downloaded and installed. 4.2 is available. There have been repeated comments that the Ret module is either non-functional, broken, or producing conflicting results. Edit: Have not heard reports in 4.3 - no comment on whether it functions or not. Caveat emptor.

Simulationcraft is a program which can be downloaded and run. Fully armed and operational battle station. sjogren can be PMed regarding bugs/features. For what it's worth, if you cannot run Excel (therefore cannot run my spreadsheet), this would be my recommendation.

WoWReforge.com is a useful website for reforging to maximum effect.

Mr. Robot is a website for item comparisons. It appears to base this information directly off of stat weights generated elsewhere (previously Redcape, now Simcraft). Its other areas seem to just be links (including one to EJ for Talent specs). Caveat Emptor - since stat weights slide based on gear, I personally disapprove of using a static set under the GIGO principle.


[TABLE="head"]Abbreviation | Meaning
AGI|Agility (stat)
AoE|Area of Effect
AoW|Art of War (talent)
AP|Attack Power
Arbiter|Arbiter of the Light (talent)
AW|Avenging Wrath (ability)
BoM|Blessing of Might (ability)
BoK|Blessing of Kings (ability)
CD|Cool Down
Cons|Consecration (ability)
CS|Crusader Strike (ability)
CRIT|Critical Strike (rating or percent)
DoT|Damage over Time
DivPurp|Divine Purpose (talent)
DP|Divine Plea (ability)
DS|Divine Storm (talent/ability)
Exo|Exorcism (ability)
E4E|Eye for an Eye (talent)
GCD|Global Cooldown
GoSoT|Glyph of Seal of Truth (glyph)
HoJ|Hammer of Justice (ability)
HoL|Hand of Light (spec bonus)
HoT|Heal over Time
HoW|Hammer of Wrath (ability)
HP|Holy Power
HW|Holy Wrath (ability)
ICD|Internal Cooldown
Inq|Inquisition (ability)
J|Judgement (ability)
JotP|Judgements of the Pure (talent)
JotW|Judgements of the Wise
Judge|Judgement (ability)
PoJ|Pursuit of Justice (talent)
PPM|Proc Per Minute
Sheath|Sheath of Light (spec bonus)
SoJ|Seal of Justice (ability)
SoL|Sheath of Light (spec bonus)
SoR|Seal of Righteousness (ability)
SotP|Seals of the Pure (talent)
SoT|Seal of Truth (ability)
SoT DoT|The DoT portion of SoV
SoT proc|The instant damage portion of SoV
STR|Strength (stat)
TV|Templar's Verdict (ability)
Zeal|Zealotry (talent/ability)

While supplies last (order now!). No guarantees implied. Your mileage may vary (or kilometerage). Not available in certain states (of mind). For indoor or outdoor use only. Not for use by small children (that's why we have ovens and barbecue sauce). May cause incontinence and/or temporary blindness while driving. If effects last for more than four hours, brag and link the damage meters.

=Thread Change Log=
12/06/10 Initial Post
12/08/10 - Exo vs Undead/Demons
12/09/10 - Acts of Sacrifice
12/15/10 - Haste and Soft Cap update. Tailoring Swordguard update. Haste to boots enchant added.
12/17/10 - Gemming and Meta clarification.
12/18/10 - Link to updated version of my spreadsheet. Stat Weights from Redcape's and my Spreadsheets.
12/22/10 - Added AP to stat weights. Wrath AP enchants added to table.
12/28/10 - Hurricane vs Avalanche vs Landslide. Tailoring Swordguard update.
1/3/11 - Fixed tooltip based value of Swordguard AP. Updated glyphing for L85. Some discourse on the Exo Glyph's overwriting functionality.
1/7/11 - Link to new version of my spreadsheet. Caveat about PTR.
1/10/11 - Updated Stat comparisons and added DPS per Stat per request. Notes about Crit, Haste, and Mastery. Fixed Zealotry+AW recommendation.
1/12/11 - PTR tracking section added.
1/24/11 - Typo. Updated PTR info.
1/26/11 - Corrected Censure haste update notation.
2/8/11 - Updated for 4.0.6 and PTR moved to appropriate sections and removed from being a topic header.
2/17/11 - Revaluation of weapon enchants.
2/21/11 - Trade skill updates. Minor tweaks. Pre-pot discussion.
3/21/11 - Updated tier gear information to match 4.0.6 mechanics. Definition of pre-potting and how it functions. Added simulationcraft to resources.
4/26/11 - Updated references from 4.0.6 to 4.1. Mentioned 20 sec CD on WoG. Corrected pre-pot info. Golemblood has a 1 min CD, not 2 min.
6/28/11 - Update to 4.2. Added 4.2 related information on set bonuses, CD usage, etc. Updated AOE data.
6/29/11 - Update on gemming. Twice. Selfless Healer still sucks, but could have 100% up-time.
7/5/11 - Added visual aid for 4T12 CD usage.
7/21/11 - Emergency spreadsheet update.
7/26/11 - Release worthy spreadsheet update. Disagrees with stat values in this OP, but as it is still controversial the OP has not been altered at this time.
8/4/11 - sjogren takes credit (blame?) for Ret Simcraft.
8/9/11 - Stat Weight update. Crit vs Haste debate.
8/12/11 - Updated spreadsheet link.
8/18/11 - Spreadsheet update (further reforge updates).
8/22/11 - Added link to Mr Robot by request.
9/13/11 - Censure coefficients updated.
9/19/11 - Spreadsheet update.
11/29/11 - 4.3 updates.
12/1/11 - 4.3 spreadsheet update.
12/6/11 - Updated Spreadsheet. Professions.
1/11/12 - Updated Spreadsheet. Minor tweaks and commentary to several sections.
1/18/12 - Updated Spreadsheet.
1/25/12 - Corrected HW/Cons macro.
2/1/12 - Redcape's Sheet has been updated. Link to thread updated.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#2 Nätion


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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:27 PM

A couple things that I noticed:
Glyph of Exocism should be listed as better than Glyph of Crusader Strike with the buff to Exorcism.
Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond should be mentioned as a meta, requires 2 red gems, grants 54 crit and spell reflect, superior to other current options. This will obviously change when the fix chaotic meta requirements.
Dwarf Mace Spec is only 3 expertise now not 5.
Shadowguard Embriodery grants 1000 AP instead of 800.

#3 Morphex


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Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:17 AM

Exemplar, you might want to use;

World of Warcraft

As the new armory links for your spreadsheet instead of the old armory. It's just a little side note tho.

#4 Charybdis


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 04:31 AM

How exactly do Blazing Light, Inquisition, and Art of War modify Exorcism together? Are they additive for an extra 150%, multiplicative for 312%, or somewhere in between?

I ask because it isn't noted anywhere, and the interaction between them could mean that Exorcism pulls ahead of HoW against undead/demon mobs.

#5 Glycell


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:36 PM

A couple things that I noticed:
Glyph of Exocism should be listed as better than Glyph of Crusader Strike with the buff to Exorcism.

I've Heard that Glyph of Exorcism can be a problem because the DoT it creates does not use roll over damage. So if you get two AoW procs to close to each other you lose the first Exorcism's DoT damage.

#6 Exemplar


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 01:37 PM

How exactly do Blazing Light, Inquisition, and Art of War modify Exorcism together? Are they additive for an extra 150%, multiplicative for 312%, or somewhere in between?

I ask because it isn't noted anywhere, and the interaction between them could mean that Exorcism pulls ahead of HoW against undead/demon mobs.

Exo is always ahead of HoWHW*, undead/demon or not.

Blazing Light and Art of War should be additive (both talents, both with "Add Modifier - %"). Inquisition should be a separate modifiers (since it's "Mod Damage Done % (2)"). So with BL, AoW, and Inq all up it should be 220% * 130% (286%). With autocrit on undead/demons.

Once I hit 85 I will test Exorcism closely to get the exact damage range (rather than just the average that Redcape has supplied), as I did at 80. This will allow me to verify modifiers more accurately.

My spreadsheet appears to have Inq as 120%, instead of 130% (it was initially +20% ages ago and I must have missed the change, or changed then accidentally reverted at some point). Next release will correct. This doesn't effectively change anything, as HoW and Exo remain #1 and #2 (behind Inq).

Regarding Glyph of Exo, I was under the impression that it amortized like all other such effects. If you had 20% remaining when you applied a new DoT then the total would be "(new + 20% old) over 6 seconds." Again, I can test when I hit 85 and there aren't more pressing matters. Unless someone chooses to test Exo before I get to it (any masochist want to do it?).

Unrelated note: If anyone has played with my spreadsheet, they'll find at any value of haste short of perfectly capped CSCD it appears that 2 fillers is superior to one. It's also showing Zeal and AW should be linked, but since I'm modeling L80 gear at 85 (which should be extremely obsolete) it's possible this is a false result (also the missing 10% on Inq could have impacted).

* - Edit: Corrected, meant HW and not HoW. HW is always inferior. See posts below regarding HoW.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#7 Nätion


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:24 PM

I've Heard that Glyph of Exorcism can be a problem because the DoT it creates does not use roll over damage. So if you get two AoW procs to close to each other you lose the first Exorcism's DoT damage.

Even so, they were close before, and Exo had it's damage almost doubled, granted with exo being a higher priority, there will likely be more clashing if that is the case. I suppose true testing will tell.

#8 Exemplar


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 04:02 PM

Realized a simple test:
Glyph Exo. Outside of melee range cast Exo twice.
If the second Exo is greater than or equal to the first then wait for the DoT to drop and re-test.

When you get the second Exo as less damage than the first, compare DoT ticks. If the new DoT ticks for less than the old, it overwrote. If the new is higher (though Exo did less damage), then it picked up and carried the old damage.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#9 Charybdis


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:27 PM

Exo is always ahead of HoW, undead/demon or not.

You may want to update the priority to reflect that. Right now you have: Level 85: Inq > HoW > Exo > TV.

As far as Exorcism's glyph goes, I know when I tinkered with Holy DPS in 4.0.1 it didn't roll. This may have changed, but as you noted it's not hard to test. I would if I had WoW time right now. It did, however, autocrit on undead/demon mobs, so against those the glyph is about a 30% boost since it still crits for only 50% extra damage.

#10 Exemplar


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 06:01 PM

Whoops, I meant HW, not HoW. HoW beats Exo because the near auto-crit talent boost. Against Demons/Undead Exo probably does pull ahead. I'll update the OP regarding that fact. Excellent point.

4.0.1 also didn't apply haste to Censure on-the-fly (only on application), which 4.0.3 corrected. We definitely should re-test to be sure. The fact that the glyph ticks have the auto-crit on Demon/Undead is an interesting fact, one I'll also have to add to the OP.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#11 Charybdis


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:31 PM

The next question regarding glyphs is how much does the CS glyph benefit us? It's obviously our weakest Prime of the three mains you mentioned, but it might also be weaker than Exorcism now. My math shows that for Exorcism's glyph to surpass Crusader Strike's, Exorcism needs to do at least 86% the damage of CS against non-undead/demon targets, or 79% against UD/demon if we don't factor in the DoT getting "clipped." The math is simply 1.2x > 1.025y, where x equals Exo's damage, y equals CS's, and the coefficients equal their glyphs.

If we factor in clipping the glyph's DoT then it would make the most sense to get an average of how many ticks go through before being clipped. I'm SoL for testing right now, but when I used it before while chain-casting at haste cap I found the glyph always ticked at least once. That would suggest it's either always a 1 second tick regardless of haste or that it's a 1 to 1.5 second tick factoring in haste, meaning 4 to 6 ticks. I'd lean more towards the static 1 second due to the glyph's wording, but it really could go either way with how Blizzard does things. We'll always get at least 3.33_% extra damage on Exorcism with the glyph essentially.

Following is rough napkin/calculator math on Exorcism's DoT. Feel free to correct me if I screwed up or if there's a better way. If I mention how many ticks are lost it's assumed the character has a 2.0 speed swing to model worst-case scenario for the Glyph.

Every autoattack has a 20% chance to proc AoW, which means there's a 4% chance to get back-to-back procs, .8% chance to get three in a row, etc. Adding up the chances results in an effective 5% chance for AoW to proc back-to-back during the course of a fight and potentially cause our Exorcism to lose 4 to 5 ticks.

The chance for one attack to proc AoW and the next not to is 16%. The chance for the next two attacks to behave the same way is 2.56%, then .04096%, etc. Adding up these chances results in an effective 20% chance AoW will happen every other attack and cause us to lose 2 to 3 ticks.

The chance for one out of three attacks to proc AoW is 12.8%. Adding up its extensions results in an effective 15% to lose 0 to 1 tick. The chances for 1 in four are 10.24% and about 11.5% respectfully. 1 in 5 results in 8% and ~9.5% chances. Finally, 1 in 6 results in 6.5% and roughly 7.2%. 1 in 6 is the absolute last point where we'd care about the procs and it'd only be a problem if we had sub 1.0 attack speeds.

Adding the numbers up to 1 in 4 shows about a 50% chance we'll clip the Glyph of exorcism. If we clipped 100% of the time, we'd lose about 13.3%. Since we'd only clip at most 50% of the time though, with a 2.0 speed weapon, the loss due to clipping is more like half that, or 6.6%. In short, overall we don't have to worry about clipping causing us to -lose- damage. The damage we'd gain from it rolling would likewise not be huge, at least for Ret only casting on AoW procs.

Note that for most of the clipping you'd have to use Exo just before a melee hit, and then again just after one. If you can manage to align Exo casts to just before or just after a melee hit you'll reduce clipping even further.

TL: DR: Don't worry about Exorcism's glyph clipping unless you're hard-casting and chaining Exorcism. We'd need an autoattack less than 2 seconds, perhaps even less than 1.5, for it to matter.

#12 Exemplar


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Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:59 PM

The ratio isn't quite as clean as 1.2 vs 1.025. With a meta (once they fix the requirements) a CS Crit is 206% of a CS Hit (100% hit * 103% meta * 200% crit = 206%, the meta's a bit misleading in its text), not just 200%. Also the DoT from Glyph of Exo has been reported as not scaling (a flat 20% of Exo's base damage, regardless of SP or AP). Since ticks of the Glyph's damage could crit (for 150%) that side of the comparison is higher than 20% Exo. We need to iron out the Glyph's functionality (clipping, scaling, etc) through some testing.

We could have a flat value from GoExo vs. a scaling increase to CS (the more CS is doing, the better 5% more crit becomes). This would lead to an inflection point when CS scales beyond GoExo, or we could have your X vs Y scenario.

It's not quite as simple as Exo w/Glyph vs CS w/Glyph. It's Exo w/Glyph + CS without Glyph vs Exo without Glyph + CS w/Glyph. It's the difference gained by each glyph, not the total damage of the ability with glyph.

Fake example:
1.2x > 1.025y|.2x > .025y
if x is 500 and y is 1000.|if x is 500 and y is 1000.
1.2 * 500 = 600|.2 * 500 = 100
1.025 * 1000 = 1025|.025 * 1000 = 25
600 < 1025|100 > 25

So it should be damage done just by the DoT vs damage done by 5% more CS Crits. Until we have good data on the DoT the rest of the math cannot be run.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#13 Darko


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:13 AM

Can we expect some kind of math when it comes to choosing between SoT and SoR in relation to duration of the fight, numbers of mobs involved etc?

Also, if Exemplar's comment/spreadsheet about 2 fillers is correct, this somehow starts to smell of haste being really, really low weight all of the sudden - at least at the entry level Cata gear.

#14 Idocreating


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:58 AM

Simple question: Tiny Abomination in a Jar. Does it still function properly, is it still worth using?

#15 Nätion


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 02:02 AM

TaJ has a lower chance to proc as you level, and is almost worthless at 85.

#16 HamSlammer


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:29 AM

Three seperate points I want to bring up.

1) This is a bit nitpicky, but I believe Acts of Sacrifice should get an honorable mention in the spec section. With only one point invested into it, Cleanse will remove ALL snares or immobilizes regardless of debuff type, from Hamstring to Curse of Exhaustion to Feral Charge. This gives the Paladin both the freedom to use HoF on allies rather than himself and extra mobility duration high frequency snares. Maybe the current raid landscape won't provide any use for it, but I've already found uses for it in heroics at least.

2) I'm curious if anyone has found a workaround to the wonky GAK mechanics, namely him swapping targets liberally and just milling around without attacking anything?

3) I'm unclear as to whether or not I'm actually correct in my assumption, but does Mastery Rating give partial Mastery bonus. For example, my Paladin has 10.72 Mastery (something like 499 rating) but the tooltip only lists 10%. Is it just hiding that .72% or is it cutting it off?

All that prelude brings me to my actual point. If it's the latter, would there be any point where reforging into Mastery to get to a round number (such as bumping 10.97 to 11.01) or not reforging Mastery out to achieve the same goal ever be a valid option in gearing? Perhaps at certain levels of other stats?

#17 lordmogg


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 12:01 PM

In Mastery points. It will always round down. So yes. 10.99 % Mastery will only actually give you 10%

11.01 will give you 11% etc

#18 Nisall


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 12:08 PM

In Mastery points. It will always round down. So yes. 10.99 % Mastery will only actually give you 10%

11.01 will give you 11% etc

This is false. Shaman testing has shown that actually % counts and not whatever rounding your paper doll shows.

#19 Exemplar


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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:24 PM

1) This is a bit nitpicky, but I believe Acts of Sacrifice should get an honorable mention in the spec section

3) I'm unclear as to whether or not I'm actually correct in my assumption, but does Mastery Rating give partial Mastery bonus.

1) Fair enough, I do note that there is no completely wrong choice.

3) The OP clearly covers this topic under Mechanics.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#20 Calefax


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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:20 PM

Firstly, thanks for all of your hard work compiling this stuff, Exemplar! A few things did stick out to me when reading over the latest version, though:

1) Have changes settled down enough that it's perhaps worth giving people some rough stat weights again? It's kind of weird that the section about reforging tells you to reforge to the "next best" stat, and then refers you to the above section where that info has all been removed.

More specifically I'm wondering what the current theorycraft is saying about crit vs haste. I know @ 80 we were all reforging to haste like mad to get the CS cd down to 3 seconds, but at 85 this is much less realistic, leading me to believe that reforging for crit would be a better option, but I have no numbers to back up that theory currently.

2) Guardian of Ancient Kings should probably get some info added about it in the DPS cooldowns section. I assume that since it has such a long cd that in most circumstances we're just going to want to pop it during bloodlust/heroism, but maybe there are some weird situations that I'm not thinking of. Also, would his attacks benefit from bloodlust such that we would want to be sure to have it out already when lust goes off? I believe things like shaman spirit wolves benefit, so I think it would be safe to assume that it will, but someone should confirm. I haven't had any shamans or mages in my level 85 groups yet :-(

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