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The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS


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#21 Charybdis

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:26 PM

Blizzard is strongly hinting Ret's mastery will be tweaked in a future patch.

Mastery is a new stat for us, and while it's working great for some talent specs, we'll almost certainly have to tweak it for others in a future patch (Unholy and Retribution come to mind, because their masteries currently affect sources of damage that just aren't large enough to be competitive).

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#22 Teleros

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:19 AM

1) Have changes settled down enough that it's perhaps worth giving people some rough stat weights again? It's kind of weird that the section about reforging tells you to reforge to the "next best" stat, and then refers you to the above section where that info has all been removed.

More specifically I'm wondering what the current theorycraft is saying about crit vs haste. I know @ 80 we were all reforging to haste like mad to get the CS cd down to 3 seconds, but at 85 this is much less realistic, leading me to believe that reforging for crit would be a better option, but I have no numbers to back up that theory currently.

It's probably a question of how much haste we'll need before we switch from CS-filler-filler to a CS-filler rotation. Not hitting CS every other button push seems to me to be a big nerf to the relative value of Haste after all.

2) Guardian of Ancient Kings should probably get some info added about it in the DPS cooldowns section. I assume that since it has such a long cd that in most circumstances we're just going to want to pop it during bloodlust/heroism, but maybe there are some weird situations that I'm not thinking of. Also, would his attacks benefit from bloodlust such that we would want to be sure to have it out already when lust goes off? I believe things like shaman spirit wolves benefit, so I think it would be safe to assume that it will, but someone should confirm. I haven't had any shamans or mages in my level 85 groups yet :-(

It also has some "interesting" targeting issues I believe, which ought to be documented if possible.

#23 Exemplar

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 06:24 PM

You can pull stat values from Redcape's spreadsheet. My spreadsheet needs some tweaks and I personally like to compare it to Redcape's before posting values (i.e. if there's a large variance, it would do to investigate to see which is more correct).

We need more info on GoaK to model properly to give advice, whether Bloodlust impacts it is not yet known. Personally in dungeons I'm using it, then 10 seconds in popping AW. This is a "seems most logical to be best DPS" application - you gain some stacks of the Str buff, then have AW for the last 20 seconds of its duration, to maximize the gain.

My spreadsheet is currently showing that at only at CS CD at 3 seconds (actually below, due to latency) do you CS+Filler, even at 3.01 seconds you CS+Filler+Filler for more DPS. I'm not 100% positive this is accurate, but don't currently see a reason to disbelieve it.

Regarding our Mastery - Blizzard is offbase. It's not the damage source that's the issue, it's the limitations. Most Masteries are passive. At most another Masteries has 2 limitations (GCD and Resource, such as Blood DK requires rune and GCD to engage), while Ret has 4 limitations: GCD, Reactive Proc, Time limit to use, and RNG. We're the only reactive usage (anything else that procs is automatic and requires no keypress) and the only one with a time limit before it's lost (not to mention potentially losing a new proc earned before last is used). Since we already have DivPurp and AoW for RNG and our resource unit IS the GCD (mana's still a non-issue), it's hampered heavily. I'd be perfectly happy going to a flat passive (or auto-proc Elemental Overload style), but I know Blizzard seemed most enthused by HoL because it was an active skill. We will hope to see a new solution before Firelands is released (I hope the same for metagem fix).
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#24 Redcape

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:44 PM

Blizzard's statement about our Mastery is also completely offbase for other reasons. If they want to make Mastery desirable they don't have to change the functionality at all - just double the % bonus we get per point and all will be well. Mastery at that point will still be very different from other classes but it would definitely be competitive with haste and crit, which is honestly all that we are concerned about. As long as we benefit reasonably in terms of overall dps I don't see any reason to overcomplicate the problem. Clearly there are a million and one alternate implementations that could also work fine but the current one can be entirely workable with a simple increase to the rate of return.
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#25 SirWilliam92

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 02:28 AM

...If they want to make Mastery desirable they don't have to change the functionality at all - just double the % bonus we get per point and all will be well...

Couldn't that then cause problems in later tiers, where we perhaps have too high mastery such that the frequency of procs begins to cause more problems? I've not seen (nor looked for) any information on how much mastery is reasonable on raid gear now, and none of us know how much will be present when 4.3 comes around, but it does seem like a concern Blizzard may have with just ramping up the conversion rates.
If we have too much mastery, it will begin to stop consuming "spare" GCDs and cuts into other abilities, reducing it value. Too much mastery also has a higher risk of back-to-back procs eating one another. I guess one could simply reforge off any excess mastery they have, but that just means mastery is undervalued which brings us back to the original problem and due to the RNG facet is a very hard choice to make (It could be almost completely wasted on one lucky fight and almost overpowered on the next, depending on DP and AoW procs - making it practically impossible to model).
Just my comments on the suggestion, although I have no suggestion of my own.

#26 Charmin

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:18 AM

Honestly, I'd like to see Exorcism get a reliable cooldown in a 8 or 7 second range. I find in many cases I can't use Holy Wrath, because of CC, and without HW or a 3 second Crusader Strike I find that I don't have enough buttons to push most of the time, and when you get back to back AoW procs it borderlines on the OP. Make Exo a reliable spell and adjust the numbers accordingly.

Divine Storm also needs a change to how it generates HP. Either it needs to be a guaranteed 1 HP upon use or it needs to regain it's old ability to generate multiple procs of HP. I find our AOE to be woefully lacking, and without the HP generation to back up DS I just find it hard to justify using it unless there are a lot of mobs. Do we even have an idea on how many mobs makes DS more valuable than Crusader Strike?

Hand of Light is a very fun spell, but it should really be a talent point and take the place of Art of War.

I know what I just said may possibly count as wish-listing, and I don't want to derail this thread into that direction, but it's just an evaluation of running heroics and running Bastion of Twilight.

#27 Fancy_pants

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:19 AM

I believe the thread says it is optimal to switch to an AoE rotation at 5 mobs or more. Most pulls in 5 person dungeons are less than 5 mobs if I recall correctly. Individual mobs also tend to survive long enough for SoT to stack to 5 and then some.

I think ret DPS is a bit low right now in general. World of Logs posts show that paladins tend to peak around 15-16k DPS in 25 person raids while other specs are performing in the 20 thousands. This could be caused by a weak mastery, greater sensitivity to capping hit and/or crit, or just player error. We are not, however, the only spec in this situation and I expect that changes are forthcoming.

#28 Danath

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:57 AM

Blizzard's statement about our Mastery is also completely offbase for other reasons. If they want to make Mastery desirable they don't have to change the functionality at all - just double the % bonus we get per point and all will be well. Mastery at that point will still be very different from other classes but it would definitely be competitive with haste and crit, which is honestly all that we are concerned about. As long as we benefit reasonably in terms of overall dps I don't see any reason to overcomplicate the problem. Clearly there are a million and one alternate implementations that could also work fine but the current one can be entirely workable with a simple increase to the rate of return.


I totally agree. I actually like the mechanics, although they should really bring it off the GCD and make it so it doesn't fade until out of combat, so you don't lose if you are CC'd for some seconds.

But other than that, I like the proc itself and the fact that it lets us literally do more: we can use it to keep Inquisition up most of the time, or land another hard-hitting Templar's Verdict, or maybe even heal with an unexpected Word of Glory...Someone should toss the idea to Blizzard, although I'm not sure they would listen.

#29 burghy

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:32 PM

The logic behind mastery stat is not to let you do more, but to do better. Haste should take care of the "do more" part.

#30 Zyne

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 02:04 PM

I am wondering what the your reasons/maths are for this rotation Inq > HoW > Exo > TV > CS > J > HW > Cons. First of all Tv hits for almost twice as much as HoW. Tv does 18k non crits and How does 23k crits and about 12-11k non crits. This is with inq up.It really doesent make senes in my eyes at all. Also Tv hits as hard as exo. I am in full hc gear and some raid epics. I also would suggest to drop cons. out of your rotation because it cost too much mana. Instead i would use holyradiance in aoe dmg situations (incoming) to help healers. You cant do both with your mana and cons. dmg is pathetic. My Rotation would be Inq>Tv>exo>how>cs>J>HW and occasionly holy radiance.

I would apreciate some feedback on my ideas.

#31 Glycell

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:12 PM

Couldn't that then cause problems in later tiers, where we perhaps have too high mastery such that the frequency of procs begins to cause more problems? I've not seen (nor looked for) any information on how much mastery is reasonable on raid gear now, and none of us know how much will be present when 4.3 comes around, but it does seem like a concern Blizzard may have with just ramping up the conversion rates.
If we have too much mastery, it will begin to stop consuming "spare" GCDs and cuts into other abilities, reducing it value. Too much mastery also has a higher risk of back-to-back procs eating one another. I guess one could simply reforge off any excess mastery they have, but that just means mastery is undervalued which brings us back to the original problem and due to the RNG facet is a very hard choice to make (It could be almost completely wasted on one lucky fight and almost overpowered on the next, depending on DP and AoW procs - making it practically impossible to model).
Just my comments on the suggestion, although I have no suggestion of my own.



Exactly a rng proc based mastery will run into these types of problems, especially one like ours. We'll see what happened with Armor Pen in BC, for most tiers it was just bad for us, but in the last tier if we stacked it to a high enough level it was the way to go. I assume they want to avoid this mentality. Avoiding a stat completely until the toon can stack up enough of it to make it OP.

#32 T.K.

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:44 PM

They only way, if they keep the Mastery as it is with Hand of Light, for it to be desirable imo is if they made it act like a WF-like proc, in wich the HoL Templar's Verdict would have an increased AP % or damage and that % would increase the more mastery you stacked along with the chance for the proc to happen.

Another way I see it being worth, would be for the Hand of Light proc be an auto-out of the GCD-Templar's Verdict. That would make the mastery a lot less skill dependant as it wouldn't be reactive to the player noticing the proc and hitting the key, but as it would be extra damage on top of the normal rotation, it would be more desirable.


On another note, considering there should still be many Engies here from Wrath, have anyone tested the Elementium Dragonling? IT seems the pet stay if you take the trinket out, but I'd like further confirmation if possible.

#33 Danath

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 04:37 PM

They only way, if they keep the Mastery as it is with Hand of Light, for it to be desirable imo is if they made it act like a WF-like proc, in wich the HoL Templar's Verdict would have an increased AP % or damage and that % would increase the more mastery you stacked along with the chance for the proc to happen.

Another way I see it being worth, would be for the Hand of Light proc be an auto-out of the GCD-Templar's Verdict. That would make the mastery a lot less skill dependant as it wouldn't be reactive to the player noticing the proc and hitting the key, but as it would be extra damage on top of the normal rotation, it would be more desirable.


On another note, considering there should still be many Engies here from Wrath, have anyone tested the Elementium Dragonling? IT seems the pet stay if you take the trinket out, but I'd like further confirmation if possible.



I'm for skill-dependant, generally. Anyway, a WF like-proc would be nice: for the next TV, you do an extra attack with increased AP or maybe additional holy damage. Kinda like good ol'SoC, I really miss it!

For Zealotry, I was thinking that maybe during the buff, all offensive abilities by the Paladin would yield 1 HP. The duration could be extended, from 20 seconds to 30. Right now if you want to pop Zealotry, Inquisition becomes downright useless in that timeframe since CV and TV, the only two skills you want to hit, only deal physical damage.

If all of the offensive abilities granted 1 HP, the rotation would be mostly normal, involving the usual holy damage abilities buffed by Inquisition.

#34 Kaernya

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 09:45 PM

Right now if you want to pop Zealotry, Inquisition becomes downright useless in that timeframe since CV and TV, the only two skills you want to hit, only deal physical damage.

If all of the offensive abilities granted 1 HP, the rotation would be mostly normal, involving the usual holy damage abilities buffed by Inquisition.


Doesn't the increased priority for HoW/Exo, especially combined with a 4+ sec CS CD (only just reached 85 so I don't know what our haste might be in basic raiding gear), mean you'll still want to use those between each round of CS->TV if they're available? Combined with Seal/Censure damage Inquisition still seems worth it.

#35 Exemplar

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:20 PM

I am wondering what the your reasons/maths are for this rotation Inq > HoW > Exo > TV > CS > J > HW > Cons. ... I would appreciate some feedback on my ideas.


HoW nearly always crits due to talent bonuses. Crit HoW are superior to hit TV. Overall average damage means HoW wins.

Exo should hit similar to TV or for more, so you need to dump it immediately to permit another AoW to proc.

The currently available tools should make details clear. My spreadsheet organizes attacks based on overall average damage (including Holy Power generation).

Trying to perform healing in a Ret spec (Holy Radiance) is a waste of a GCD (our true resource) and a waste of mana - hybrid is dead, you perform your role or you do not. Our role is DPS. You should have the mana to Consecrate whenever you have nothing else to perform if you're not performing extremely low healing instead.

Not that we can HW or Cons too much in 5man dungeons due to CC necessity, as noted above by Charmin.

Right now if you want to pop Zealotry, Inquisition becomes downright useless in that timeframe since CS and TV, the only two skills you want to hit, only deal physical damage.


Kaernya is correct. Even under Zealotry you should hit HoW or Exo if they are available. This weakens Zealotry even beyond the lost DivPurp single-holy-power procs that Zealotry eats. It's really a lackluster final talent. Yes, it is more DPS, but it's extremely weak compared to AW or GoAK.
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#36 Charybdis

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:45 PM

Right now if you want to pop Zealotry, Inquisition becomes downright useless in that timeframe since CV and TV, the only two skills you want to hit, only deal physical damage.


Given the priorities on our abilities, and how it's a DPS gain to use two fillers even with a lower CS CD, Zealotry actually doesn't change much aside from "guaranteeing" TV is one of the fillers. It's barely even a guarantee since HoW and Exo are ahead of 3HP TV, so we'd really end up with three, four, or even five fillers if AoW procs back-to-back or refreshing Inquisition would be a gain.

Even if Zealotry made all of our abilities guarantee a 3HP gain, we're still stuck with the fact that a few abilities are ahead of TV. Unless TV actually comes out ahead of Exo and/or HoW, Zealotry is almost not worth using.

Edit: For those doing math on why TV comes out behind, it's worthwhile to note lowered damage from boss armor. Boss armor is 11977, so according to the formula found on Combat ratings boss armor should provide 26.88% damage reduction, or in other words all physical attacks Ret does will only do 73.11% of normal damage.

#37 Babathong

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 12:34 AM

Trying to perform healing in a Ret spec (Holy Radiance) is a waste of a GCD (our true resource) and a waste of mana - hybrid is dead, you perform your role or you do not. Our role is DPS. You should have the mana to Consecrate whenever you have nothing else to perform if you're not performing extremely low healing instead.
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The combination of using a few paladins' holy radiance at the same time, especially while grouping up for big incoming raid damage, is a very useful tool, and has proved to be worth using on cooldown if necessary. There are multiple fights that require this type of clumping, and I don't see how you can say that it is a wasted gcd if it helps the raid kill a boss. I won't go into specifics about certain fights, but there is no way that ret's and/or a class like an enhance shaman shouldn't be using skills like holy radiance and healing rain at this point in progression.

#38 Avitus

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 02:34 AM

Edit: Beaten by Babathong.

Trying to perform healing in a Ret spec (Holy Radiance) is a waste of a GCD (our true resource) and a waste of mana - hybrid is dead, you perform your role or you do not. Our role is DPS.


I think that's a very narrow way of stating things. Yes, the priority is ultimately DPS and a binary one at that (either you do enough or you are worthless), but extra utility should not be disregarded.
Since you specifically mention Holy Radiance, think of a fight with phases, something like Kil'jaeden where you have everyone bunch up in specific intervals. Surely two or more (ret) paladins using Holy Radiance will be significant enough to warrant wasting 1 GCD each. It's not unlike asking a Shadow Priest to pop Hymn in Wrath, just that the mechanics (supposedly) have now changed to be much harder on healer mana, so every bit of extra healing helps.

In smaller groups (5 mans/10 man raids) I would not disregard the power of Word of Glory either. I'm running with 2/2 Selfless Healer and with HoL up, I can frequently get back to back 30k+ WoG crits on a party member (or the tank in heroics) when things get tricky, guaranteeing that person will survive and the fight will go on. In heroics especially, this feels the closest Ret (or a Paladin spec in general) has ever been to true hybrid play since the (granted very primitive) days of vanilla.




A different issue I'd like to see some discussion on: Has there been anything said regarding the logic behind how melee cleave/AoE is panning out in the different classes? I know the general design decision they went with for WoW 4.0 was to remove the so called "free damage" cleaves were giving, but I don't understand in that case why there is such a gigantic discrepancy between classes.

I find that with this change too many of our abilities have become near worthless: Holy Wrath is useless damage wise (5-7k total, regardless of number of adds) with the only reason to use it being a 3 second AoE stun on some mob types and a potential point of Holy Power, Consecration has too long of a cooldown (30 sec) and is again too weak damage wise (~5k-7k per mob over 10 seconds) to be realistically useful in getting rid of packs and we all know the the issues with Divine Storm barely qualifying as a damage increase on anything less than 5 mobs.
On trash packs or even encounters where you need to kill a bunch of smaller mobs quickly (poison blobs, crocodiles, stone shards, take your pick) you're less useful than a warrior tank with vengeance stacks using shockwave. It's gotten to the point where I've opted out of speccing Divine Storm in favor of 2/2 Selfless Healer and 1/2 Acts of Sacrifice for the root dispel.

I would be fine to coming to terms with the fact that melee classes have been turned into single target only, if it wasn't the case that at the same time DKs are still able to Howling Blast crit half a dozen mobs for ~20k each at 10 yard range at a spammable 1 frost rune cost, I don't see the logic here. I know DPS Warriors are in a similar boat as us and I think rogues as well, which makes me wonder if there will be some adjustment up (or down in the case of DKs), since at the moment melee classes that should be roughly interchangeable are not, due to almost non-functioning AoE abilities.

I hope this doesn't come off as whining, it's not supposed to be. I'm just pointing out a current issue with the spec and gathering feedback.

#39 Rammurg

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:37 AM

-

Howling Blast is an outlier that hasn't been brought in line at the moment. As far as I know no other AoE is that powerful anymore, aside from a DemoLock going all out with cooldowns I suppose. But yes, I also feel our AoE is significantly behind the average between classes, though we're probably not the only ones.

You got me pushed to drop Divine Storm for now, WoG is getting a lot of use in 10man for me at the moment (and the same goes for Holy Radiance) but I wanted to keep at least 1 point in Acts of Sacrifice if I were to go for Selfless Healer.

#40 Danath

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:16 AM

HoW nearly always crits due to talent bonuses. Crit HoW are superior to hit TV. Overall average damage means HoW wins.

Exo should hit similar to TV or for more, so you need to dump it immediately to permit another AoW to proc.

The currently available tools should make details clear. My spreadsheet organizes attacks based on overall average damage (including Holy Power generation).

Trying to perform healing in a Ret spec (Holy Radiance) is a waste of a GCD (our true resource) and a waste of mana - hybrid is dead, you perform your role or you do not. Our role is DPS. You should have the mana to Consecrate whenever you have nothing else to perform if you're not performing extremely low healing instead.

Not that we can HW or Cons too much in 5man dungeons due to CC necessity, as noted above by Charmin.



Kaernya is correct. Even under Zealotry you should hit HoW or Exo if they are available. This weakens Zealotry even beyond the lost DivPurp single-holy-power procs that Zealotry eats. It's really a lackluster final talent. Yes, it is more DPS, but it's extremely weak compared to AW or GoAK.


That just reinforces my statement: since HoW and Exo are so powerful and Zealotry is currently designed only with CS and TV in mind, it definitely has to change. Right now I don't even know if I'd better spec into Acts of Sacrifice at L85 for more utility.

P.S.: I hate hybrid being dead, I really do. I levelled a Paladin because I love that role. Anyway, some very situational offhealing shouldn't be mana taxing at least when you get the Crusader proc.




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