Jump to content


Photo

The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS


  • Please log in to reply
1877 replies to this topic

#41 bewsii

bewsii

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:41 AM

I too am finding myself using WoG and Cleanse in heroics far more than I had to in Wrath, especially with the brutality of mana consumption on healers now. So, like most of you, I'll be dropping DS for Selfless Healer to smooth this process over some more. Also, as others have mentioned, I've rarely been using Zealotry myself, and Inquisition feels very clunky with exception of reapplying it during a 3 HoPo + HoL situation.

On the plus side, I'm pleased with GoAK's damage output so far. In dungeons, at least, as I've not raided yet. I've been seeing 9-10% damage from him on 3-4 minute fights which is surprising considering Beta testers appeared to be quite dissatisfied with the ability.

My main curiosity at this point is whether or not people are noticing the clunkiness of the spec decreasing with entry level raid gear? I'm finding myself waiting out the entire 4.2s CS quite often with no GCD's to spend, and it's frustrating.

#42 Rammurg

Rammurg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:20 AM

I too am finding myself using WoG and Cleanse in heroics far more than I had to in Wrath, especially with the brutality of mana consumption on healers now. So, like most of you, I'll be dropping DS for Selfless Healer to smooth this process over some more. Also, as others have mentioned, I've rarely been using Zealotry myself, and Inquisition feels very clunky with exception of reapplying it during a 3 HoPo + HoL situation.

On the plus side, I'm pleased with GoAK's damage output so far. In dungeons, at least, as I've not raided yet. I've been seeing 9-10% damage from him on 3-4 minute fights which is surprising considering Beta testers appeared to be quite dissatisfied with the ability.

My main curiosity at this point is whether or not people are noticing the clunkiness of the spec decreasing with entry level raid gear? I'm finding myself waiting out the entire 4.2s CS quite often with no GCD's to spend, and it's frustrating.

I actually enjoy those short breaks with nothing to use. As long as it doesn't mean our performance will be subpar, of course.

As for GoAK, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it sometimes just..standing there, doing nothing. it seems to happen every now and then when there are several targets nearby.

I agree Inquisition feels "clunky" when you have a really bad streak with Divine Purpose procs, but overall I like it. Getting constant back-to-back HoL and AoW procs randomly while you're still working on using up the previous ones does feel a bit overwhelming, but it's very different from any other class.

My main issues with the spec is still the reliance on autoattacks and Seal of Truth & target switches - especially the latter feels like a relic of past burst balancing that they just didn't bother take another look at. Early in the beta they did change the tooltip to state "causing single-target attacks to Censure the target..." from "causing autoattacks..", but it's still only stacking up from autoswings.

#43 Danath

Danath

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 162 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 12:04 PM

I *just* hit 85 and I'm wondering what to do with the spec. I too feel Zealotry and Divine Storm aren't competitive right now, even in the very levels before 85 it was already clear.

However, with such spec as this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , I'm wondering if I'd better put a point into Eternal Glory instead of the usual An Eye for an Eye. If we have to lay some WoG onto others, a 15% chance of not wasting HPs doing that sounds interesting to me.

What do you think?

#44 Kaernya

Kaernya

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 02:03 PM

I *just* hit 85 and I'm wondering what to do with the spec. I too feel Zealotry and Divine Storm aren't competitive right now, even in the very levels before 85 it was already clear.

However, with such spec as this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , I'm wondering if I'd better put a point into Eternal Glory instead of the usual An Eye for an Eye. If we have to lay some WoG onto others, a 15% chance of not wasting HPs doing that sounds interesting to me.

What do you think?


Honestly I've gotten a lot of use out of Selfless Healer, but it's definitely mostly for random groups - when I'm doing dungeons with guildies I trust the tank/healer enough to not bother. Whether you get that or Eternal Glory depends on your priority I guess - Eternal Glory will help your self-healing, but Selfless Healer is more healing for half the GCD and a damage boost at the cost of not healing yourself. I also frequently use Holy Radiance in rotation gaps/instead of HW if there's a lot of damage going around (unless I can't afford to spare the dps).

#45 Danath

Danath

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 162 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:40 PM

Honestly I've gotten a lot of use out of Selfless Healer, but it's definitely mostly for random groups - when I'm doing dungeons with guildies I trust the tank/healer enough to not bother. Whether you get that or Eternal Glory depends on your priority I guess - Eternal Glory will help your self-healing, but Selfless Healer is more healing for half the GCD and a damage boost at the cost of not healing yourself. I also frequently use Holy Radiance in rotation gaps/instead of HW if there's a lot of damage going around (unless I can't afford to spare the dps).


Well I was actually saying that assuming one gets Selfless Healer, then Eternal Glory (1 point) instead of An Eye for An Eye (1 point) would have stacked better; so at least 15% of the time, your WoG either on you on others doesn't waste HPs.

By the way, I too noticed the weirdness of the Guardian...It seems to stop attacking when you switch target. We should send some ticket packs.

#46 Zulrai

Zulrai

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:55 PM

Removed

#47 Talith

Talith

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:00 PM

I too am finding myself using WoG and Cleanse in heroics far more than I had to in Wrath, especially with the brutality of mana consumption on healers now. So, like most of you, I'll be dropping DS for Selfless Healer to smooth this process over some more. Also, as others have mentioned, I've rarely been using Zealotry myself, and Inquisition feels very clunky with exception of reapplying it during a 3 HoPo + HoL situation.

On the plus side, I'm pleased with GoAK's damage output so far. In dungeons, at least, as I've not raided yet. I've been seeing 9-10% damage from him on 3-4 minute fights which is surprising considering Beta testers appeared to be quite dissatisfied with the ability.

My main curiosity at this point is whether or not people are noticing the clunkiness of the spec decreasing with entry level raid gear? I'm finding myself waiting out the entire 4.2s CS quite often with no GCD's to spend, and it's frustrating.


I am sure when it comes to random heroics we all have been using these abilities more. On a guild run things are more controlled but I also find a lot of use of WoG. I almost always run with a ele shammy and when things get rough his healing rain + Radiance usually save the day.

Actually the best use of Zealotry I have found is as a saving CD: CS -> WoG -> CS WoG has allowed us to kill bosses when we got bad healers or oom situations.

There is no doubt we are still in a great hybrid/helper position but remember that the objective in these forums is the min/maxing of our role which is DPS. That is the reason you will see statements like "Holy Radiance is a DPS loss and a wasted GCD" but never ever read them as "Holy Radiance is worthless and you should never use it" because it is not what we mean and I think we all understand that when a situation requires offhealing the player skill involved in using these abilities correctly create benefits for the group/raid that far suprasses a situation where the player only stuck to dpsing.

Now back on heroics trash topic:

I have found myself only using SoT to avoid any undesirable cleaves and CC breaks and for HW i sometimes move a little farther away where i know I will range the CC (Also i love when the cc is my friend's hex since it can take a HW before breaking) but I also feel our AoE right now is worthless, I can only hope to compete when there are 6+ mobs and they will be all tanked over a well placed consecration and that is not very often. Under the current situation honestly if it wasn't for the added "Seal of Command" damage on SoT i would also drop Seals of Command since the cleave has been so far useless.

#48 HamSlammer

HamSlammer

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 04:15 PM

Art of War does not increase Glyph of Exorcism's damage. You can easily test this by meleeing for a proc, use it, note the ticks, then back up and cast another Exorcism, and then compare ticks.

Similarly, Glyph of Exorcism does not roll. New applications overwrite old ones. Every other personal buff/talent/ability that you figure would increase the glyph's damage does (Inquisition, AW, both parts of Communion, BoM).

#49 Avitus

Avitus

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 796 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

P.S.: I hate hybrid being dead, I really do. I levelled a Paladin because I love that role.


We actually have a higher capability to hybrid than ever before, so if you like hybrid play (like I do), now is the best time to be a Ret paladin. I find the combination of more complex rotation, 2 resource pools, having to handle interrupts and even co-pilot healing on occasion to have a fairly high skill cap and to be thoroughly enjoyable.

The statement "hybrid is dead" refers to raiding. It's something people say to dissuade new players from the mind set of "well I can dps 50% and heal 50%", that just doesn't exist (and never has really). However as long as our specs fulfills the primary role of competitive DPS, any extra hybrid abilities are icing on the cake, that SHOULD be used when needed.

As for GoAK, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it sometimes just..standing there, doing nothing. it seems to happen every now and then when there are several targets nearby.


I've had that several times. I've also had it run off and go attack a mob behind me, rather the one I'm closer to/have targeted and am running to. The makeshift solution is to only use GoAK when you're in melee range and actively hitting a mob.

Another minor annoyance with GoAK to be aware of is that when it runs out and "explodes", that explosion (Ancient Fury) can actually break CC.


I *just* hit 85 and I'm wondering what to do with the spec. I too feel Zealotry and Divine Storm aren't competitive right now, even in the very levels before 85 it was already clear.

However, with such spec as this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , I'm wondering if I'd better put a point into Eternal Glory instead of the usual An Eye for an Eye. If we have to lay some WoG onto others, a 15% chance of not wasting HPs doing that sounds interesting to me.

What do you think?


Zealotry not being slam dunk amazing is no reason to drop it out of your spec, it's still a damage increase. And if healing is what you're moving your points to, just remember that with Zealotry up, CS + WoG spam is one of the most beastly healing any offspec can do, enough to keep a tank up in most heroics without a healer.

#50 ryvius

ryvius

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:00 PM

I've noticed at 960 hit rate gives me 7.99% instead of 8%. Is this a calibration problem or that the actual hit cap is slightly more than 960?

#51 Charybdis

Charybdis

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 289 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:47 PM

I've noticed at 960 hit rate gives me 7.99% instead of 8%. Is this a calibration problem or that the actual hit cap is slightly more than 960?


The actual hit cap is 960.872 since 1% hit requires 120.109 hit rating. The last point is worth 87% of normal, so it might drop below haste and crit in value but certainly not mastery.

#52 Spotnick

Spotnick

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 64 posts

Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:13 PM

Some classes have pets that need to be popped before bloodlust/heroism and some after. I was actually wondering if that's the case with our guardian. I clearly remember for death knights gargoyle and army of the dead were not working the same way.

Could be a nice addition to the FAQ, as well as if it is affected by AW, trinkets, etc.

Keep up the good work.

#53 Guest_Alensia_*

Guest_Alensia_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:27 AM

Given the priorities on our abilities, and how it's a DPS gain to use two fillers even with a lower CS CD, Zealotry actually doesn't change much aside from "guaranteeing" TV is one of the fillers. It's barely even a guarantee since HoW and Exo are ahead of 3HP TV, so we'd really end up with three, four, or even five fillers if AoW procs back-to-back or refreshing Inquisition would be a gain.

Even if Zealotry made all of our abilities guarantee a 3HP gain, we're still stuck with the fact that a few abilities are ahead of TV. Unless TV actually comes out ahead of Exo and/or HoW, Zealotry is almost not worth using.

Edit: For those doing math on why TV comes out behind, it's worthwhile to note lowered damage from Glancing Blows and boss armor. Boss armor is 11977, so according to the formula found on Combat ratings boss armor should provide 26.88% damage reduction, or in other words all physical attacks Ret does will only do 73.11% of normal damage. I believe glancing blows and armor reduction are multiplicative meaning a glancing blow against a raid boss results in only 54.83% of normal damage.


Only white attacks can be glancing blows.

#54 solacespecs

solacespecs

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:44 PM

I have been following the thread since beta, and I've tried to stay up to date, but I'm slightly confused on one issue (possibly because there may not be enough math to give a clear answer).

In terms of Zealotry, Avenging Wrath, and Inquisition, I am struggling to figure out the best rotation. I know that Inquisition has the highest priority with abilities, but I'm slightly lost as to when to use it.


Currently, when I begin a fight, at 3 HP I pop Zealotry and then Inquisition, and then CS -> TV spam (unless an AoW Exo pops) until Zealotry is off. Whenever my Inquisition gets down to 2-4 seconds, I refresh it again.

Once Zealotry expires, I pop Avenging Wrath.

Then I rinse/repeat as Zealotry/AW cooldowns expire.

I apologize if I missed clarity on this, but if Exemplar or someone else could implement when to use Zealotry/AW in the thread, it my be useful.

Thanks.

#55 golfinguy

golfinguy

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:21 PM

Our DPS is a bit behind, Zealotry is sub-par, Inquisition clunky.

DPS - I think Blizz knows this and 'something' will be done. Hopefully for AOE as well, seems they overreacted to our ICC OPness ;)

Zealotry - We simply need TV to hit harder, that would make it better. We're now tuned around HP, building it up as fast as we can, so that we can ultimately use our........ third hardest hitting attack? I do not know if it scales better with gear than HoW and Exo, but it should be a harder hitter period.

Inquisition - take it off the GCD?




As for Inquisition management, I find myself hitting it with less than 3 HP (2 specifically) just to get it up early in a fight - then fish for a proc to refresh it at 3HP. How are others managing this?

#56 Bloodvalor

Bloodvalor

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:24 PM

I have been following the thread since beta, and I've tried to stay up to date, but I'm slightly confused on one issue (possibly because there may not be enough math to give a clear answer).

In terms of Zealotry, Avenging Wrath, and Inquisition, I am struggling to figure out the best rotation. I know that Inquisition has the highest priority with abilities, but I'm slightly lost as to when to use it.


Currently, when I begin a fight, at 3 HP I pop Zealotry and then Inquisition, and then CS -> TV spam (unless an AoW Exo pops) until Zealotry is off. Whenever my Inquisition gets down to 2-4 seconds, I refresh it again.

Once Zealotry expires, I pop Avenging Wrath.

Then I rinse/repeat as Zealotry/AW cooldowns expire.

I apologize if I missed clarity on this, but if Exemplar or someone else could implement when to use Zealotry/AW in the thread, it my be useful.

Thanks.


Inquisition should always be first up. Always. Even during Zealotry if you get a Art of War proc you should use it immediately (assuming the bosses health isn't in HoW range, in case HoW first unless the boss is classified as demon/undead) to allow another proc ASAP.

Telling you exactly when to use your cool downs is something we can't really do. It depends on the boss fight and when you will be using Bloodlust/Heroism. There are a few things that you should try and do though. Try and have AW and GoAK ready for BL/Heroism. That is also when you should be drinking your golemblood potion and using any other on use items available to you.

#57 solacespecs

solacespecs

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:46 PM

Inquisition should always be first up. Always. Even during Zealotry if you get a Art of War proc you should use it immediately (assuming the bosses health isn't in HoW range, in case HoW first unless the boss is classified as demon/undead) to allow another proc ASAP.

Telling you exactly when to use your cool downs is something we can't really do. It depends on the boss fight and when you will be using Bloodlust/Heroism. There are a few things that you should try and do though. Try and have AW and GoAK ready for BL/Heroism. That is also when you should be drinking your golemblood potion and using any other on use items available to you.


Good advice. I think what I'm more so asking however is not WHEN to use my cooldowns but rather the PRIORITY of my cooldowns. This means that when it comes to Zealotry and Avenging Wrath, which should be used first? Which one carries more weight in terms of DPS gained?

I agree in that I think the answer on when to use which cooldown is dependent on WHEN BL is going to be used and timing AW accordingly, meaning possibly using AW first so that it will be up again when BL is popped towards the end.

Just something I've been thinking of.

#58 kineda

kineda

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:03 PM

As for Inquisition management, I find myself hitting it with less than 3 HP (2 specifically) just to get it up early in a fight - then fish for a proc to refresh it at 3HP. How are others managing this?


Inquisition has been the most painful for me in the heroics (hell even normals) ive been running but i've been doing somewhat the same thing. for the most part i've hit it at 1 HP just to get it rolling and barring no one needs a WoG proc from mastery i've been using it to refresh Inq. The other method i've been using on pulls is building up 3 HP, popping Zealotry and TV then using the second 3 HP to refresh Inq and then any mastery procs to refresh Inq. I must say though that the role pallys seemed to have been shafted with in cata to pick up the slack with healer mana pools (at least in pre-raid level gear) and having to also keep an eye on Inq from falling off is plain ridiculous.

i will say that i enjoy the playstyle but im a little disappointed that i cant maintain a consistant dps level. from RNG and throwing out heals my dps is all over the board.

quick question on HW, is there a certain range where it wont hit mobs to break a CC? since we only have a couple of fillers and haste is so bad on current gear i find myself not being able to do anything because of CC'd mobs while waiting for my stuff to come off CD.

#59 HamSlammer

HamSlammer

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:06 PM

Art of War does not increase Glyph of Exorcism's damage. You can easily test this by meleeing for a proc, use it, note the ticks, then back up and cast another Exorcism, and then compare ticks.

Similarly, Glyph of Exorcism does not roll. New applications overwrite old ones. Every other personal buff/talent/ability that you figure would increase the glyph's damage does (Inquisition, AW, both parts of Communion, BoM).


To go inline with this, here's a World of Logs from last night. I personally questioned glyph viability after figuring out what my aforementioned quote details, so I played with glyphs a bit last night. From the Halfus fight, you can gather what each glyph should be around.

(All these values are in relation to the Halfus kill, in an extremely rough napkin format)

Edit - GAK's melees don't appear to attribute themself to the player currently, so I'm missing 114k~ damage but Argent Fury attributes correctly. Mine also missed on an attack and got parried another.

#60 jouldax

jouldax

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:07 PM

Good advice. I think what I'm more so asking however is not WHEN to use my cooldowns but rather the PRIORITY of my cooldowns. This means that when it comes to Zealotry and Avenging Wrath, which should be used first? Which one carries more weight in terms of DPS gained?

I agree in that I think the answer on when to use which cooldown is dependent on WHEN BL is going to be used and timing AW accordingly, meaning possibly using AW first so that it will be up again when BL is popped towards the end.

Just something I've been thinking of.


AW should take priority over Zealotry as the raw damage increase and the free use of HoW typically outpaces Zealotry (a lucky string of HoL procs aside) since TV no longer hits nearly as hard as it did in beta. However, as bloodvalor mentioned, the order of CDs cannot be predetermined (eg. you may pop heroism 30 seconds into the fight for a particular reason, in which case you'd likely open with Zealotry to maximize zealotry uptime, assuming you won't lose out on an AW by delaying the initial use by 30 seconds).




2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users