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The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS


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#1861 Exemplar

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:35 PM

If AoW procs every 15+s on average, wouldn't you use Exo at 21s (18s after the 1st Exo) instead of Cons? It would end with 2 Exo 2 HoW vs 1 Exo 3 HoW. Thus higher damage by prioritizing Exo?


Excellent question. If you could guarantee the average, then the answer would be 'yes'. Unfortunately you cannot guarantee the average.

Example:
0 - AoW procs. CS and Judge are off CD, so you are going to use both.
3 - AoW refreshes. Never had a chance to Exo, so this proc is lost.
30 - AoW procs.

You had an average proc every 15 seconds, huzzah! Oh... wait... it still didn't help. It's a gamble that it occurs. If you win the gamble, great. If you lose the gamble, too bad.

Spoiler to hide yet another table, since post is already long.
Spoiler
It's the same reasoning a Divine Purpose TV is put behind Judgement (assuming 4 piece) unless you're at 3 HP. Yes, that Judge has a chance to proc another DP (which would be a wasted refresh), but delaying the CD on Judge (which provides 1 HP) is overall worse than losing the potential TV proc.*

You have the possibility that you may do more damage with Exo>HoW as well as DP>Judge - but in the long term and on average you wind up with more damage the other direction.

Again - I do not blanket say HoW>Exo is for everyone. I continue to hold both in the OP as some modeling tools for some people show one, some show the other. I have no firm idea what may be the break point one direction or the other (see some more theorizing in my last post).

This is very much an end-of-expansion discussion, since comparing HoW>Exo and Exo>HoW (with my toon) found a variance of 0.27% (my spreadsheet, HoW wins) to 0.47% (SimC, Exo wins) total DPS change. The decimal is not misplaced - that is one quarter to one half of one percent. I actually get a larger variance in Simcraft (0.56%) between SimC's default setup and what I consider a more realistic setup (minor tweaks like making sure Inq is running with sufficient time before engaging Zealotry and delaying GoAK for the next Zealotry rather than possibly using in no-mans'-land - although based on those results maybe I can get half a percent more DPS by NOT watching timing as close as I do, this makes me sad). Heck, you even get a fluctuation of around 0.2% between individual runs of the same settings (this is not a knock against SimC - its a Sim, so it actually uses an RNG, it's doing precisely what it's supposed to do and doing it damn well - the above numbers used multiple runs of SimC with each configuration to more accurately compare averages).

Bottom line, since I like bottom lines - we're talking about fractions of a single percent of DPS between our various choices. As long as you spend your HP on TV and keep Inq running, it appears you could get all your choices 'wrong' and still do 90% of maximum DPS**. Consider that the RNG impacts Landslide, Gur, Trinkets, AoW, DP, Crit, Glance, and doubtless other things not immediately coming to mind. A good player having an unlucky day could lose to a mediocre player having a lucky day.

* - Ran DP > Judge in SimC and got results that overlapped the Judge > DP range. The low end of DP>J did appear lower than otherwise, so on average there does seem to be the loss, but it's something like 0.08% - less than 1/10th of 1 percent. This is why I didn't bother to create the distinction in my spreadsheet.

** - My spreadsheet showed HoW>Exo>Judge>CS was 90% of max DPS. SimC showed this as... wait for it... 95% of max DPS. Dropping Judge and CS behind HW and Cons still puts SimC at 91% of max DPS. As long as you can keep Inq up, use 3 HP on TVs, and spam an available button (you'll still suck if you don't press buttons or spam something on CD while something else is available) you're looking at 90% max DPS.
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#1862 Valgus92

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 08:33 PM

This question has probably already been answered elsewhere in this forum but here we go;

I just obtained Heroic Slicer and have been using N Gurthalak, after using simcraft H Slicer pulled ~300 more dps than Gurth and after looking through my most recent WoL for H Ultra I noticed that Gurth only proc'd a grand total of 1 time. RNG aside i'd like to know what everyone else has come concluded (though I know most people are using H Gurth by now)?

#1863 Podima

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 08:36 PM

I'm still using LFR Gurth. :( Terrible drop luck!

Actual response: RNG will be RNG, but I think it was concluded that N Gurth still comes out ahead of H Slicer. But for mobility-sensitive fights, Slicer may be better.

#1864 Medieve

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:45 PM

This question has probably already been answered elsewhere in this forum but here we go;

I just obtained Heroic Slicer and have been using N Gurthalak, after using simcraft H Slicer pulled ~300 more dps than Gurth and after looking through my most recent WoL for H Ultra I noticed that Gurth only proc'd a grand total of 1 time. RNG aside i'd like to know what everyone else has come concluded (though I know most people are using H Gurth by now)?


We had a pretty good discussion about this around page 70. It's an interesting read, if you want to see some of the math and tests that were performed.

The short answer is that N Gurth *can* outperform all heroic weapons (excluding H Gurth, although it can in a case-by-case there as well), but heroic weaponry will perform more consistently. If you need the consistency, use Slicer. If you're aiming to top, and you or your raid group can accept the fact that you'll hit as often as you miss, keep using Gurth. We're already rolling 4 RNG dice, adding Gurth just widens your high/low gap a bit more.

#1865 averykey

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:39 AM

Writing an addon like clcret but for all classes, Here is the current logic in my rotation, can anyone suggest improvements? Also working on beta rotations.

This for for t13 2 piece.

Single target
--------------------------------------
Inquisition < 2 seconds left, need more logic for this so inq never falls off.
Exorcism art of war if target undead and out of range
hammer of wrath out of range
exorcism art of war + out of range
judgement out of range
divine storm if target is corrupted fragment of regenerative blood, if 3hp go to Templar
crusader strike < 3hp, if 3 hp go to Templar
Templar undead 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
Templar undead
exorcism art of war undead
Templar 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
hammer of wrath
exorcism if art of war
Templar verdict
judgement <= 2 hp
wait 0.2 for crusader
holy wrath
consecration
----------------------------------------------

Aoe
---------------------------------------------
Inquisition < 2 seconds left
Exo art of war if target undead and out of range
hammer of wrath out of range
exo art of war + out of range
judgement out of range
divine storm if target is corrupted fragment of regenerative blood, if 3hp go to Templar
divine storm < 3hp, if 3 hp go to templar
Templar undead 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
Templar undead
exo art of war undead
templar 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
hammer of wrath
exo if art of war
templars verdict
judgement <= 2 hp
consecration
wait 0.2 for crusader
holy wrath
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also what ilvl is the breakpoint between the higher geared/lower geared rotation?

Any help is appreciated.

#1866 Exemplar

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:33 PM

Creating a mod that forces the user to a specific priority sequence is counter-productive. It's at least as likely to suggest the wrong action as the right one, because most fights have that one special 'thing' to them. Also add in that every patch, tier, tier bonus, or trinket can alter someone's desired priority, as well as the fact that the community may not even agree on priority (i.e. Exo or HoW first?). Users won't want to wait for a rewrite every time things change, or to try to determine which flavour of several available matches their ideal.

An example of an issue:
If you're out of range, HoW and Judgement are on CD, mana is high, and you do not have Art of War. You can recommend hard cast Exorcism and that's correct if you're forced to stay away from target for a further time, but if the gimmick-that-kept-you-away is over you're better moving towards the target. If you prompt it to say "cast Exo" you're wrong part of the time and if you don't prompt "cast Exo" you're wrong part of the time.

If you're going to re-invent a wheel (clcInfo in this case), it needs to be a better, improved wheel. It needs to be as configurable, or more configurable, as clcInfo - not less. This is in addition to adding more classes. 'One Size Fits All' tends to mean 'One Size Fits None' - it's wearable, but too tight, too loose, too long, or too short in different areas on each person.

Not attempting to be derogatory or insulting, simply stating that if you want to create something similar to another 'product' already existing in a 'market', it needs to at least have all the same 'good bits' as the 'competitor', in this case the configurability. Then you can add extra features (other classes) and my personal recommendation: add a cleaner more user-friendly interface. clcInfo works awesome and I greatly respect burghy for developing it, but the interface leaves much to be desired.

P.S. Why care about undead at all? Current tier it's pointless, and the MoP version of Exo doesn't reference anything regarding undead. Looks like you could streamline your checks/options regarding that, though you'll need to be prepped to add in Holy Prism, Light's Hammer, and Execution Sentence.
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#1867 averykey

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Creating a mod that forces the user to a specific priority sequence is counter-productive. It's at least as likely to suggest the wrong action as the right one, because most fights have that one special 'thing' to them. Also add in that every patch, tier, tier bonus, or trinket can alter someone's desired priority, as well as the fact that the community may not even agree on priority (i.e. Exo or HoW first?). Users won't want to wait for a rewrite every time things change, or to try to determine which flavour of several available matches their ideal.

An example of an issue:
If you're out of range, HoW and Judgement are on CD, mana is high, and you do not have Art of War. You can recommend hard cast Exorcism and that's correct if you're forced to stay away from target for a further time, but if the gimmick-that-kept-you-away is over you're better moving towards the target. If you prompt it to say "cast Exo" you're wrong part of the time and if you don't prompt "cast Exo" you're wrong part of the time.

If you're going to re-invent a wheel (clcInfo in this case), it needs to be a better, improved wheel. It needs to be as configurable, or more configurable, as clcInfo - not less. This is in addition to adding more classes. 'One Size Fits All' tends to mean 'One Size Fits None' - it's wearable, but too tight, too loose, too long, or too short in different areas on each person.

Not attempting to be derogatory or insulting, simply stating that if you want to create something similar to another 'product' already existing in a 'market', it needs to at least have all the same 'good bits' as the 'competitor', in this case the configurability. Then you can add extra features (other classes) and my personal recommendation: add a cleaner more user-friendly interface. clcInfo works awesome and I greatly respect burghy for developing it, but the interface leaves much to be desired.

P.S. Why care about undead at all? Current tier it's pointless, and the MoP version of Exo doesn't reference anything regarding undead. Looks like you could streamline your checks/options regarding that, though you'll need to be prepped to add in Holy Prism, Light's Hammer, and Execution Sentence.



Why care about undead at all? Current tier it's pointless, and the MoP version of Exo doesn't reference anything regarding undead. Looks like you could streamline your checks/options regarding that, though you'll need to be prepped to add in Holy Prism, Light's Hammer, and Execution Sentence.

Why do you have undead in the main post? This is intended for use throughout all of WoW just like the rotations you have posted.
I have a crude implementation Holy prism, Light's Hammer and Execution Sentence, but it's not set in stone yet till I have more info.

If you're out of range, HoW and Judgement are on CD, mana is high, and you do not have Art of War. You can recommend hard cast Exorcism and that's correct if you're forced to stay away from target for a further time, but if the gimmick-that-kept-you-away is over you're better moving towards the target. If you prompt it to say "cast Exo" you're wrong part of the time and if you don't prompt "cast Exo" you're wrong part of the time.

Common sense is still a factor when using any addon, you still have to think about what's going on around you and adjust as needed.

Thanks for the feedback, I am working on making the rotation more configurable and you will be able to re-arrange all the spells, and add your own conditions as well.

edit: This will work for leveling as well.

Can you provide feedback on the rotation I posted? Is anything wrong with it.

#1868 Exemplar

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:08 PM

Why do you have undead in the main post?

Can you provide feedback on the rotation I posted? Is anything wrong with it.

Because earlier in Cataclysm we actually fought Undead. I don't recall anything in Dragon Soul being undead and in MoP it will be moot. This thread started with Cata being live. Why take extra time building something obsolete by the time your tool can be available or widely adopted?

I flat wouldn't use the 'rotation' (it's a priority, not a rotation) you provided, simply because it was force-fed. Having each line item discretely listed and configurable would be marvelous - it's certainly more detailed than clcInfo and would thus permit a greater degree of personalization. Also by the time MoP comes out (in a few months?) the priority could be very different, so your researched hard-coded setup would be dead wrong due to mechanics changes.

Again, if you want to out compete a popular product (clcInfo), you need to at least provide the same features (configurable). Otherwise you avoid competition by going orthogonal (provide some other Ret-specific 'service' unrelated to priority) or go into another field entirely (provide some other class a needed 'service'). Take your line item of possible options (for each class!) and make them configurable by the user and it sounds like you'll have the good basis for a mod.

Just don't forget the final piece - polish. Even if something works like gangbusters, if it looks like a trashbin people won't be bothered to try it, so they won't know how phenomenal it is. People are shallow.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#1869 averykey

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:20 PM

Can anyone tell me if this is the correct?
Please tell me if the priority is wrong and what is wrong and if any of the logic is wrong.

Single target
--------------------------------------
Inquisition < 2 seconds left, need more logic for this so inq never falls off.
Exorcism art of war if target undead and out of range
hammer of wrath out of range
exorcism art of war + out of range
judgement out of range
divine storm if target is corrupted fragment of regenerative blood, if 3hp go to Templar
crusader strike < 3hp, if 3 hp go to Templar
Templar undead 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
Templar undead
exorcism art of war undead
Templar 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
hammer of wrath
exorcism if art of war
Templar verdict
judgement <= 2 hp
wait 0.2 for crusader
holy wrath
consecration
----------------------------------------------

Aoe
---------------------------------------------
Inquisition < 2 seconds left
Exo art of war if target undead and out of range
hammer of wrath out of range
exo art of war + out of range
judgement out of range
divine storm if target is corrupted fragment of regenerative blood, if 3hp go to Templar
divine storm < 3hp, if 3 hp go to templar
Templar undead 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
Templar undead
exo art of war undead
templar 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
hammer of wrath
exo if art of war
templars verdict
judgement <= 2 hp
consecration
wait 0.2 for crusader
holy wrath
------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1870 Charybdis

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:05 PM

Because it's so late in Cataclysm, I'd recommend working on MoP coding and such rather than trying to get the priority right for what little time we have left in this expansion. I would also recommend not offering fight-specific stuff until you actually have the add on functional for basic rotation needs. Adding extras like the regenerative blood will only hold you back from getting a polished product out in good time.

As mentioned, there will never be a set in stone priority except for Patchwerk fights, and that might change based on gear. SimCraft models that but has options to change things a little.

Speaking of SimCraft, do you intend to have your add on be able to use the same priority sequence SimCarft uses? Being able to import a profile from that might help quite a bit.

#1871 averykey

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:04 PM

Because it's so late in Cataclysm, I'd recommend working on MoP coding and such rather than trying to get the priority right for what little time we have left in this expansion. I would also recommend not offering fight-specific stuff until you actually have the add on functional for basic rotation needs. Adding extras like the regenerative blood will only hold you back from getting a polished product out in good time.

As mentioned, there will never be a set in stone priority except for Patchwerk fights, and that might change based on gear. SimCraft models that but has options to change things a little.

Speaking of SimCraft, do you intend to have your add on be able to use the same priority sequence SimCarft uses? Being able to import a profile from that might help quite a bit.


I already have the mop priority rotation done, until I get more info I can't do anything else, and since nothing is set in stone yet on beta I would rather work on live profiles as it could be up to 4 months before the new expansion hits.

Why is it so hard to get the priority for ret on here?

#1872 Ronark

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:12 AM

The information you are looking for is in this topic already, hence you should be able to find it. For the most part, mechanics for MoP are finished, and you can use the rotation posted in the other thread here on the message forum.

#1873 averykey

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:52 PM

The information you are looking for is in this topic already, hence you should be able to find it. For the most part, mechanics for MoP are finished, and you can use the rotation posted in the other thread here on the message forum.


I have looked through 30~ pages and there is a bunch of conflicting rotations, So that's why I asked.

I already finished the mop rotation based on what I read in that thread.

#1874 Ronark

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:24 PM

You will not find a trumps-all rotation. Rotations are specific to your gear, but general rotations for 4.3 are listed on the first page. Also consider that Tier bonus and general patched abilities from patch to patch also affect our gearing, and hence rotation.

#1875 averykey

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:25 AM

You will not find a trumps-all rotation. Rotations are specific to your gear, but general rotations for 4.3 are listed on the first page. Also consider that Tier bonus and general patched abilities from patch to patch also affect our gearing, and hence rotation.


What would you suggest for 397+ then?

I think I have a good one set up for < 397, and I think I have a good one for bis or near bis, I am working on trinkets at the moment but I would like to make this work for all or close to all people.

edit: saw a 406 ret today only pull 37k on morchok and 42k on yorsajh, He is a guy who could really use this :P.

#1876 Ronark

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:23 PM

Are you gearing Haste or Crit? Are you running HoW >Exo or vice versa? To a lesser extent, do you have full raid buffs? Making a set in stone rotation isn't possible, but for most paladins their rotation will be that on the front page.

Echoing Exemplar's previous post, you have to make it customizable for the consumer. Enabling to have the addon react to gear and patch changes, and possibly import options from other tools such as Simcraft, will make it stand out over the competition.

If you want my opinion, feel free to PM me or another person on the boards, as the last few posts are starting to get off-topic.

#1877 Thunderchylde

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:11 AM

It is also worth noting that there are already other, non-clcInfo/Ret solutions to this such as Ovale (Ovale Spell Priority - WoW AddOns - CurseForge) which has a 'default' rotation based on SimCraft and allows customisation. While not wanting to take the topic further afield I would also suggest ensuring that the goals of your add-on are clear so as to avoid reinventing the wheel.

#1878 Medieve

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:31 PM

What would you suggest for 397+ then?

I think I have a good one set up for < 397, and I think I have a good one for bis or near bis, I am working on trinkets at the moment but I would like to make this work for all or close to all people.

edit: saw a 406 ret today only pull 37k on morchok and 42k on yorsajh, He is a guy who could really use this :P.


That is a fallacious argument. RNG can swing the same top tier Ret several thousand DPS different each pull even on patchwerk fights.

You're also not listening. Some of the best Rets are telling you exactly how to best go about this so that Rets will actually use this, and you're blowing them off asking for a rotation that doesn't exist. The Ret "rotation" doesn't exist. It's a priority order that has the potential to change several times a GCD. The priority system changes from gear upgrade to gear upgrade. You're not going to get a set in stone rotation, or even close to one.

Can anyone tell me if this is the correct?
Please tell me if the priority is wrong and what is wrong and if any of the logic is wrong.

Single target
--------------------------------------
Inquisition < 2 seconds left, need more logic for this so inq never falls off.
Exorcism art of war if target undead and out of range
hammer of wrath out of range
exorcism art of war + out of range
judgement out of range
divine storm if target is corrupted fragment of regenerative blood, if 3hp go to Templar
crusader strike < 3hp, if 3 hp go to Templar
Templar undead 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
Templar undead
exorcism art of war undead
Templar 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
hammer of wrath
exorcism if art of war
Templar verdict
judgement <= 2 hp
wait 0.2 for crusader
holy wrath
consecration
----------------------------------------------

Inq should be refreshed as close to 0 as possible. Keep in mind that -1 secs is closer than +2 seconds. You could probably get away with less than or equal to 2 seconds on that and be OK. Following that, if you're out of range, your priority system depends if Inq is up or not, and depends on how much HoPo you have. If Inq is up, and you have open HoPo, your range rotation prioritizes Judgment, assuming you have the 2pT14 bonus. If both those are yes, or you need to rebuild Inq, you will prioritize J -> AoW Exo -> HoW (these two are interchangable depending on stats) -> HC Exo. If you have 3 HoPo, you drop J. Refreshing Inq depends solely on how long the air phase lasts, and is generally not worth keeping up throughout an air phase. Reason: HoPo is your main damage source. You want J off CD, since generally you'll be refreshing Inq once the phase is coming to an end and will want to start rebuilding HoPo immediately upon ground phase resuming. Judging gives you LAotL if you've got a run to get through as well as assists you having full HoPo within a couple globals of becoming re-engaged. This isn't always the most efficient method, since we're ignoring DP procs, but again, as a general rule towards a rotation, this will keep your uptime programmably high.

Personally, I would leave ranged out of this. All it'll do is tell players to hardcast Exo, which will burn their mana to the point where it becomes a DPS loss while they wait for it to regen again.

The melee priority order is on the front page. A mob being undead has little bearing on whether or not you'll be casting AoW Exo at this point. Many builds favor Exo over HoW to begin with. Since you're looking for a rotation, it would be safest to burn AoW Exo ahead of HoW as a rule.

No addon will tell a player what button to push to max a player's DPS output. There are too many variables to consider that update far too quickly. Your best bet is to get a good average of correct guesses. If you're trying to get every single button perfect every single time you push one, this addon will never be done for Ret.


Aoe
---------------------------------------------
Inquisition < 2 seconds left
Exo art of war if target undead and out of range
hammer of wrath out of range
exo art of war + out of range
judgement out of range
divine storm if target is corrupted fragment of regenerative blood, if 3hp go to Templar
divine storm < 3hp, if 3 hp go to templar
Templar undead 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
Templar undead
exo art of war undead
templar 2 holy power + divine purpose and crusader is up in 0.5
hammer of wrath
exo if art of war
templars verdict
judgement <= 2 hp
consecration
wait 0.2 for crusader
holy wrath
------------------------------------------------------------------------


For AoE, replace Crusader Strike with Divine Storm, and include some kind of range check to count grouped mobs within DS's AoE. You'll start AoE at 4 mobs. Any less and you cut your HoPo generation considerably and do less damage. At 3 mobs and less you resume single target, unless mechanics call for maximum spread damage. I haven't run into that encounter personally that it's mandatory for a Ret's weak AoE to be burned no matter what.




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