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Mage Simple Questions/Simple Answers [Cataclysm]


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#41 Tizzlewump

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 05:38 PM

Have any other mages noticed that their mirror images are aggroing mobs that are not supposed to be involved in 5 man boss encounters? I ask because in my five man dungeon group we run two mages and on fights like Beauty in H-BRC Runty will not engage in the fight until one of the two mages throws up their mirror images. Same with the last boss in this instance, if we do not clear all the trash "near" the boss, as soon as images go up BAM, a pack of trash from 100 yards away comes into the fray. In raid encounters, we experienced the same in 10m Bastion, we would pull one set of the orb mage trash into the hall before their spawn points, cast images to absorb some of the nasty channeled spells and BOOM, the pack from across engaged as well.


I immediately thought of Faxmonkey's video "Stupid Mage Tricks: WotLK Edition" (easy to find still). At around 11:00 he explains

Damage a mob and then reset it. From then on, anytime you cast Mirror Images within sight of that mob it will instantly aggro -- no matter how far away it is.

This bug is still live and it applies inside instances, even if you re-zone. In particular, if you wipe due to a pack of trash adding, return to the instance, and then cast MI within LoS of that pack then the pack will aggro immediately.

The room before Ozruk in Stonecore has those non-elite sentries that try to call adds and it's easy to keep LoS with all the trash when you engage Ozruk. The last room in BRC definitely offers line of sight from the bosses to the trash pack and/or Runty, but I can't explain why either aggroed for the first time. The bombing run in Grim Batol does not appear to put you on the targets' threat tables, otherwise your first MI would bring the whole zone down on you. I don't understand what happened to the trash packs in Twilight Bastion either.

This bug does not cause MI to actually shoot at the affected mobs, rather it instantly aggroes all of them. The story in post 17 definitely is an experience with this bug, but I still can't explain why they aggroed to Triumphet the first time. My images have been on their best behavior since 4.0 but I've been running as frost, and they are still at least a little responsive to pet commands while your elemental is out. Do you ever have MI troubles as frost, or is it only when arc/fire? Does your party use sap, soothe, or anything else that might put you on a threat list without forcing aggro or combat?

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#42 Vanhrell

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 08:27 PM

Is Evocation supposed to give you 60% mana back or 75%?
I am a bit confused about the tooltip, as it says 15% on initial cast, and another 60% channelled, but my unitframes only shows it as 60% in total (after channelled).

Am I miscalculating the % in the tooltip?

#43 Taudark

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 11:57 PM

Is Evocation supposed to give you 60% mana back or 75%?
I am a bit confused about the tooltip, as it says 15% on initial cast, and another 60% channelled, but my unitframes only shows it as 60% in total (after channelled).

Am I miscalculating the % in the tooltip?


Evocation - Spell - World of Warcraft

Blizzard aren't the best at updating their own tooltip.

Has anyone noticed that even w/Glyph of Conjuring, the mana cost of a gem displays correctly, but still costs 12k+ ?


Yes, right now glyph of conjuring is useless when it comes to conjuring gems. Here they updated the tooltip, but not the actual spell. We'll just have to wait until next patch, most likely.

#44 Mardi

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 01:03 PM

Has anyone noticed that even w/Glyph of Conjuring, the mana cost of a gem displays correctly, but still costs 12k+ ?


In fact this only applies to conjuring your gem when it still has charge/s. Conjuring food or even a gem w/o charges works as intended. I opened a ticket about that, Blizz is investigating. Hopefully a hotfix/patch will be applied soon.

#45 Fooky

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 01:58 PM

1. What's the ideal crit/mastery/haste ratio for Frost specs?

I know that int is our best stat (after reaching the hit cap), and we then try to get up to 33.33% crit, and after that mastery >= haste.

I can't imagine not having any haste at all and only getting gear with crit & mastery as secondary stats is actually good. At one point I actually only had 1 or 2 pieces of gear with hit on them and my DPS was significantly lower. So I am wondering, what's a good crit/mastery/haste ratio (I don't think we can even reach 33.33% crit at this point?)? Or is there any kind of soft cap for haste perhaps?


2. Is it worth switching from mage to molten armor frequently during a boss encounter, whenever your mana allows?

#46 Notfur

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 03:28 PM

How does impact behave if one is cast right after the other where there are still dots from the old impact on the target?

For example, you cast LB on Mob A, then cast impact-fireblast to spread it to Mob B. If you use another impact 1-2 second after the first one, will Mob B have 2 LB dots on it? Same goes for ignite or Pyro damage, will mob B have 2 x pyro or 2 x ignite dots for impacts that are used back to back?


LB, Combustion and Pyro are refreshed (new dots are overwriting old ones).

I'm not sure about Ignite, but I think it also overwrites old Ignite, doesn't add.

#47 Shaewyn

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:56 AM

Haven't been able to find concrete information about this: is there boss crit suppression on spells in cataclysm? The DeathKnight forum claims a spell crit suppression of 3%. Searching the internet has resulted in several pages, most referring back to the EJ DK forum as the authority.

Have we found conclusive evidence of this existing?

The reason I ask is because it might have major implications for both Frost (shatter) and Fire (Hot Streak) DPS.

#48 Maje

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 01:17 PM

Yes, the following thread has a number of tests that were done using poisons, that were considered to be spells, the crit reduction was close 2.1%.

See: http://elitistjerks....p5/#post1779837 and various other posts on the same page.

EDIT: I also remembered there were talks about Simcraft implementing the mechanic, so I dug a bit more and the code has the parameter spell_crit_suppression that's by default set to off setting it to on changes the crit rate by -0.03. However I think it modifies the character crit chance rather than the calculations of the spell critting and will probably not play well with T3 HS.

That said, for fire at least it doesn't mean much apart from reducing the DPS, it doesn't really change the gearing strategy or the stat values.

#49 Roywyn

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 03:27 PM

Yes, the following thread has a number of tests that were done using poisons, that were considered to be spells, the crit reduction was close 2.1%.

Rogues (poisons) and Death Knights (diseases) found a straight spell crit reduction of exactly 2.1%. This was tested with sufficiently large test sizes just above and below 2.1% spell crit to verify that crit can/cannot occur. Testing with mages however showed that the mechanics seemed to be different, mages did get crit with as little as 1.2% spell crit (maybe even less), which however came mostly from intellect which does Rogues and Death Knights spell crit.

So, that's one fishy part. The other is that crit depression at high levels of crit is very likely more than the 1.99% (updated) from the previous mage test. The 3% crit reduction is something that was observed when looking at logs with crit levels in actual raids.

Something that would be useful is a test to determine the actual crit cap for frost mages in raid. How much (character screen) crit is needed to get 100% crit chance on bosses/dummies. (Loatheb tests showed that 100% crit is actually possible, the crit depression for spells allows you to get only crits by having a bit more than 100% crit. One type of melee crits, either white and yellow, does not allow you to push normal hits off the table via high crit chances, or at least it used to do that.)
A good start for a Frost crit cap test would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with the 2T11 set bonus, it offers high crit chances for many spells, the only external support needed is 5% crit buff.

[Edit]: To clarify, those tests about mage crit depression were done before Cataclysm and before the 4.0.* revamp. Mages can get to 1.3% crit when having neither gear nor traits, and should drop even below 1.0% with resurrection sickness. This requires a talent reset to drop the 3% crit from tier one frost talents.

The previous testing info is at http://elitistjerks....40/#post1169839 and the following couple of posts, where we get crits below 1.99% crit (not 1.2% as I thought), but with some other unusual behaviour of perceived crits as well.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#50 Ayen

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:48 PM

Could anyone please explain how good really is (especially for frost / fire), compared to other 359 trinkets (also from currently available raids). I've tried to figure it out using the latest build of Rawr, but it seems like trinkets are not really implemented yet.
I'd like to know if its really worth the 20k from the AH...

Thanks in advance!

#51 Notfur

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 06:41 PM

Haven't been able to find concrete information about this: is there boss crit suppression on spells in cataclysm? The DeathKnight forum claims a spell crit suppression of 3%. Searching the internet has resulted in several pages, most referring back to the EJ DK forum as the authority.

Have we found conclusive evidence of this existing?

The reason I ask is because it might have major implications for both Frost (shatter) and Fire (Hot Streak) DPS.


Indeed, I've casted 3000 scorches on Raider's Training Dummy and I observed 2% less critical strikes than my crit chance.
The test sample isn't big, but this is consistent with my previous tests from 2 months ago (patch 4.0.1) - I've been getting 2.2%-2.6% less crits on heroic training dummy than expected, on Fireballs and FFB after 6000 casts.

But also note, that this poster after casting 15000 scorches on lvl85 dummy had critical strikes close to expected.

So I believe that there is crit suppression of about 2-2.5% on heroic bosses.


Rogues (poisons) and Death Knights (diseases) found a straight spell crit reduction of exactly 2.1%. This was tested with sufficiently large test sizes just above and below 2.1% spell crit to verify that crit can/cannot occur. Testing with mages however showed that the mechanics seemed to be different, mages did get crit with as little as 1.2% spell crit (maybe even less), which however came mostly from intellect which does Rogues and Death Knights spell crit.

Could you link the source of the tests where mages had got crits with 1.2% spell crit?
A naked level 85 mage can't get less than about 4.23% crit chance, so how did they test that? Are the tests from lvl 80 or earlier?

#52 Roywyn

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 09:59 PM

So I believe that there is crit suppression of about 2-2.5% on heroic bosses.

Could you link the source of the tests where mages had got crits with 1.2% spell crit?
A naked level 85 mage can't get less than about 4.23% crit chance, so how did they test that? Are the tests from lvl 80 or earlier?

The tests were done at level 80, Zaldinar got crits at 1.99% vs. boss dummies, post and discussion are around http://elitistjerks....40/#post1169839

The 4.23% crit naked you cite seem to include 3% crit from Frost talents, so you should be able to drop to 1.23% crit naked and untalented. With resurrection sickness, you might even drop below 1.0% if you want to do some tests in that narrow crit band.

Note that the listed crit values were pretty much spot on for target of your levels. There was always crit reduction for mobs above your level as well as crit increase for mobs below your level. This lead to crits from poisons and elemental weapon damage procs against targets below your level, but not against targets of your level and above. That were vanilla/TBC observations and mechanics can change, but it's good to know about these indications and pointers.

[Edit]: I'd like to point out http://elitistjerks....41/#post1172497 in the context of the rest of the discussion. With various crit rates from 8% to 50%, there was a perceived crit reduction of 2-3% in almost all large, independent tests. However, at 2% crit and below, crits never disappeared. A long test with 2.0% crit still resulted in 1.1% observed crit chance.

[Edit II]: depends entirely on the cooldown (has a 30% proc chance). At at 60s CD or lower it's great (averages to 300 INT), at 90/120s you'd better take another 321 INT trinket with a decent proc.

[Edit III]: With a 45s ICD, the Darkmoon Card is really good. Mastery is just average, but the INT proc has a really high average. The damage proc is utterly useless, you get maybe 5k damage from the fire part and 75k damage from the INT part of the proc. To test , try setting up shatter spam at 80s, 90s and 100s after the first proc to get the lowest possible reproc time, the proc rate is listed as 30% in crits. It's a good trinket for fire specs where Crit is good and Mana (from INT over SP) is not too great.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#53 mastakaj

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 07:44 AM

I actually just noticed that we have an option in our interface called "Custom Lag Tolerance" ranging from 0 to 400. I've read around online and people state to put it around 10-20ms your ping. For example, I have a ping of 110 in game so I should set it around 130 or so. I've also read if you leave in off it will set it on the default 400ms. I am just trying maximize my dps output and looking for the optimal setting.

One thing I always found interesting is that even though my in-game ping through the wow menu shows a constant 95-110, my Quartz cast bar shows my ping ranging from 180 to 400. So I really have no idea if I should set it according to my WOW ping (130) or my Quartz ping (default 400). I am starting to wonder how Quartz is getting it's values, because it is never ~100 like it should.

Edit: Does leaving it off really set it to the default 400 value?

#54 Maje

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 08:31 AM

...[Edit II]: depends entirely on the cooldown (has a 30% proc chance). At at 60s CD or lower it's great (averages to 300 INT), at 90/120s you'd better take another 321 INT trinket with a decent proc.

The cooldown is 45 seconds, generally the uptime is around 25-26%, making it a very good trinket (an understatement). One other interesting fact is that the damage proc is classified as Fire and benefits from the 25% damage increase if you're specced fire; it is usually 0.5% of your damage in fights.

#55 macbeet

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 11:13 AM

shows a differnt tooltip for me during fights: instead of 900-1500 it goes up to 3000 at some points. The value oscillates every few seconds although my spellpower and mastery stay constant. This was while playing as arcane. Any ideas why this is happening?

#56 Notfur

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 12:04 PM

Thanks Roywyn!


I actually just noticed that we have an option in our interface called "Custom Lag Tolerance" ranging from 0 to 400. I've read around online and people state to put it around 10-20ms your ping. For example, I have a ping of 110 in game so I should set it around 130 or so. I've also read if you leave in off it will set it on the default 400ms. I am just trying maximize my dps output and looking for the optimal setting. [...]


If you set it 400ms, you will be able to queue casting next spell up to 400ms before the current spell finishes casting.

In PvE combat there is no downside of setting it to 400ms, and it is only helpful if you have higher latency sometimes.
I play with the setting at 400ms all the time and it is comfortable.

People suggest setting it to around 20ms of your latency for PvP combat, where queuing spells too early is sometimes harmful. I don't play PvP much, so I don't know if that matters. I think I'd play with the setting at 400ms even in PvP, and I'd use /stopcasting macros where it's needed.


[...] One thing I always found interesting is that even though my in-game ping through the wow menu shows a constant 95-110, my Quartz cast bar shows my ping ranging from 180 to 400. So I really have no idea if I should set it according to my WOW ping (130) or my Quartz ping (default 400). I am starting to wonder how Quartz is getting it's values, because it is never ~100 like it should. [...]


I don't know how Quartz computes it's numbers, but the wow-menu certainly shows average latency over certain period of time (few seconds or longer).


[...] Edit: Does leaving it off really set it to the default 400 value?

I'm not sure, but I think that's true. The tooltip of the setting says: "Allows you to reduce the time before a Global Cooldown has finished during which you may queue up a spell". So, if it's disabled, it should be at 400ms by default.

#57 Maje

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 12:44 PM

shows a differnt tooltip for me during fights: instead of 900-1500 it goes up to 3000 at some points. The value oscillates every few seconds although my spellpower and mastery stay constant. This was while playing as arcane. Any ideas why this is happening?

It's your mastery, ie. Mana Adept most likely and/or mastery procs.

#58 talchas

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 04:11 PM

I am starting to wonder how Quartz is getting it's values, because it is never ~100 like it should.


Quartz figures latency from when you queue the spell to when it is actually cast. So it will be correct when you first start casting and basically never after then. I haven't checked again in cata, but in wrath the game didn't generate any events that could be used to properly compute the latency :/

#59 Schwierig

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 04:12 PM

Anyone knows the CD of ?

I did some testing, "averaging" the CD to about 100-150 seconds. But since I'm not permanently critting (24,71%) the tests aren't precise enough.

It would be nice if someone could correct me in my calculations if I did a mistake.


*Edit*

Taking my own stats it would be like this: (taking an inner CD of 100 seconds which is stated on wowhead)

All stats are selfbuffed values and I'm calculating with me just casting Fireball!

Crit: 24.71%
FB Casttime: 2.25 Sec
Estimated Activation Chance: 30%

So everytime I cast a spell, I have a
24.71% * 30% = 7.413%
chance to proc the trinket if it's off cooldown.

So when the trinkets CD is off after 100 seconds after the first activation, it takes on average
7.413% * 2.25 Sec = 16.67925
seconds to activate the trinket again.

So the real CD would be at 117 seconds on my character. Meaning a permanent value of
20/(117-20) * 1926 = 397


Is that right?


I did a misscalculation in the first pre-edit post. Sorry about that.

#60 Morkai

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 08:05 PM

The proc from Darkmoon card apparently scales with your gear, and can crit (doesn't proc Ignite though).
Also as was said, the ICD is 45 seconds




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