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[Cataclysm] Warrior FAQ - 4.2 - Read while patching, before posting.


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#41 Korebian

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 02:26 PM

Ideally you would want to compare SEP values, which can be generated with for example SimCraft, I can tell you the values should be something along the lines of this:

Hit: 1.2614
STR: 1
Crit: 0.6266
Expertise 0.4336
Mastery: 0.3712
Haste: 0.2795

(These are values calculated from my gear levels and using my settings, they may vary some compared to other simulations, these are to be seen as guidelines only, and especially expertise fluctuates a lot.)

That is my SEP values from 10k iterations with SimCraft, so basically you would want to weigh the SEP value against each other. One of the only cases I've experienced in Cata, where you wouldn't gem for socket bonus, is on the tier legs, given there may be more cases, especially if you are looking at non-epic gear.

#42 aylene

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 02:09 PM

@Mordenthal

As Korebian says, you'll need to know your approximate SEP values, which widely ranges with gear setup. However, the numbers Korebian posts I would argue are not to be taken as guidelines at all, since for example his hit weighs more than strength, suggesting he's not hit capped or accidentally included negative deltas when calculating SEP values (which is included by default). Expertise does not fluctuate that much either in the sense that it's never worth losing expertise for any other stat if you're not softcapped. The reason expertise SEP values seems to fluctuate alot when you're close to the cap is that Simc by default calculates stats in increments of 300 rating (I believe), which if you're slightly under the cap can put you over by quite a large margin which deflates its value, which makes it appear to be a weaker stat sometimes, and other times a very powerful stat. The truth is it's always powerful as long as you're not softcapped (26 exp), no matter what value Simc gives you.


Now to socket bonuses, once you got your SEP values it is straightforward and easily explained. You want to compare the sum of the gem's stats ( or ) + the socket bonus versus vs a pure . For example, has a yellow socket with +10 str bonus. An inscribed topaz in this ring equals to 30 str and 20 crit, and a pure 40 str gems equals to just that, 40 str. This means that 20 crit has to beat out 10 str, which it does if crit's sep value is more than 10/20, or in other words, more than half. So, in this particular case, if your SEP value of crit is >0,5 than that of strength (which it often is in my experience) it's a dps increase to go for the socket bonus. My crit SEP value for example ranges around 0,6.

Be advised however that the differencies when you're gemming is often close to being negligible. For example, let's assume the Dargonaxx Signet above instead had a +10 crit socket bonus and my crit SEP value is 0,6. Then 30 crit has to beat out 20 strength, which means the SEP value of crit has to be higher than two thirds (20/30) of strength (sep value of crit >0,6666..). Since I assume I'm at an sep value of 0,6 crit in this example, the 30 crit pans out at 0,6*30= 18 strength, and as such the difference is merely 2 strength.

As a closing word, if you're not that interested in min-maxing your character (or if you can't calculate your sep values), you could always get 40 str in all slots where the socket bonus only is +10 stat, since that is always going to be a very good dps gain, even if it isn't always the ultimate choice.

#43 Kluian

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 04:28 PM

Q: When should I use Inner Rage?
A: Rarely if ever. In some AoE situations Cleave spamming is useful, but otherwise you should rarely be generating so much rage that normal Heroic Strike usage is insufficient.


This appears misleading. Shouldn't Inner Rage be popped anytime you'll be taking excessive raid damage (especially if beserker rage is used)? You should have enough rage to use HS/Cleave under the normal 3 second CD.

#44 Zeldatoo

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 04:51 PM

This is my first EJ question. I keep seeing the hit cap stated at 8% but when I look at each Fury Warrior in Wow Armory, including all of those posting here, it shows hit ratings of 4.5 to 6.5. This causes me to ask two questions.
1. Is there a place other than the Armory where the hit rating relates to the 8%? In game, perhaps?
2. Has the emphasis on reaching 8% hit rating changed since it was first posted?

Thanks in advance.

#45 Montegomery

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 05:43 PM

This is my first EJ question. I keep seeing the hit cap stated at 8% but when I look at each Fury Warrior in Wow Armory, including all of those posting here, it shows hit ratings of 4.5 to 6.5. This causes me to ask two questions.
1. Is there a place other than the Armory where the hit rating relates to the 8%? In game, perhaps?
2. Has the emphasis on reaching 8% hit rating changed since it was first posted?

Thanks in advance.


The armory stats page doesn't include the 3% hit from Precision or the 1% from the Draenei passive. So those warriors you inspected actually have 3-4% more hit than the armory states.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#46 Zeldatoo

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 06:17 PM

The armory stats page doesn't include the 3% hit from Precision or the 1% from the Draenei passive. So those warriors you inspected actually have 3-4% more hit than the armory states.

Thanks. So I can back off my Hit rating to about 5% (in the Armory) till I get my Mastery and Crit ratings up?

#47 vazhkatsi

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 09:56 AM

It might be worth it to note that on any fight with a tank swap component, using shield block directly after taunting can help you to build a threat lead, and as such it might be wise to save it for then.

Of course, its useless anyway when you're not holding the boss, so I suppose theres no reason you wouldn't have it available anyway, unless you're in a situation where you are holding onto the adds or secondary boss.

#48 Shrymp

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

It might be worth it to note that on any fight with a tank swap component, using shield block directly after taunting can help you to build a threat lead, and as such it might be wise to save it for then.

Of course, its useless anyway when you're not holding the boss, so I suppose theres no reason you wouldn't have it available anyway, unless you're in a situation where you are holding onto the adds or secondary boss.


It won't be useless after the patch! (assuming there is AOE magic damage)

#49 hettijncomplex

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 11:30 AM

Q: Is Haste really better than Hit for SMF?
A: According to landsoul's last statement on the subject, yes. There's some disagreement between simulationcraft and landsoul at the moment regarding the value of hit and haste. Until it's resolved I'm erring on the side of landsoul.


Can I point out that Landsoul seems to currently have his gear reforged favouring hit over haste?

#50 MystEU

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 07:17 PM

Can I point out that Landsoul seems to currently have his gear reforged favouring hit over haste?


As I recall in Landsoul's example comparing hit and haste to a glass of water, where haste would be the size of the glass (i.e. the potential benefit from haste) and hit would be how full the glass is, representing how much of that potential is actually tapped. I don't think the relationship between hit and haste is as clear-cut as some say it is. His comments regarding this may have been before the +40% auto attack damage buff but I can't pin that for sure.

That said, I do agree that although hit and haste are closer to each other for SMF, hit is at least pulling a little bit ahead for both specs.

#51 Rallik

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 08:38 PM

As I recall in Landsoul's example comparing hit and haste to a glass of water, where haste would be the size of the glass (i.e. the potential benefit from haste) and hit would be how full the glass is, representing how much of that potential is actually tapped. I don't think the relationship between hit and haste is as clear-cut as some say it is. His comments regarding this may have been before the +40% auto attack damage buff but I can't pin that for sure.

That said, I do agree that although hit and haste are closer to each other for SMF, hit is at least pulling a little bit ahead for both specs.


Hit roflstomps haste. They are not close enough for there to be any question at all as to which is superior. Hit has crushed haste the entire expansion, and there is no conceivable gear setup(besides at hit hard cap) where haste catches up.

#52 MystEU

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:56 AM

Hit roflstomps haste. They are not close enough for there to be any question at all as to which is superior. Hit has crushed haste the entire expansion, and there is no conceivable gear setup(besides at hit hard cap) where haste catches up.


Agreed. That's the reason behind it at least, although somewhat of a poor design for things to end up that way. Without a ton of hit to back it up, a gain in haste means so very little unless you are connecting on those faster hits. So for haste to be valuable at all, you need a proportionally high amount of hit to go along with it, which just isn't worth it when you factor in how much nicer crit treats us. That's why it sucks.

On the other hand, it appears that some sims are showing mastery as falling behind even haste for SMF at least. I wonder how well that holds up on the varying gear levels or if it pretty much has sunk down in the stat priority overall.

#53 planrawsto

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:53 PM

I did a few experiments between haste and hit and haste has always pulled through for me. If we're going with heavy hit builds should we be prioritizing heroic strike now? I'd like a little bit of discussion on whether our rotation priorities change with this, because hit just doesn't seem to be working for me.

The guide says landsoul prefers haste and yet he's reforging to hit. So...

#54 Tojas

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:55 AM

What do you mean by "Stance Dancing" on the Arms spec? Switching to Battle Stance to Overpower twice or just casting Overpower to keep the Tier 4pc Bonus up?

Thanks in advice.

#55 Sanctifico

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:44 AM

What do you mean by "Stance Dancing" on the Arms spec? Switching to Battle Stance to Overpower twice or just casting Overpower to keep the Tier 4pc Bonus up?

Thanks in advice.


Thats the jist of it, you can simplify things by binding your stance changes into the abilities (only recommended with Tactical mastery 2/2)

Just a series of macros, with the correct stance in them and its usually easier to have the buttons mirrored in zerker and battle so you always hit the same key for the same ability.

it does require a double press to activate the ability (one for stance one for attack)

i.e. From zerker - MS > OP > Slam == MS once > Op button twice > Slam button twice

The macro's are like the below for your abilities

#showtooltip Overpower
/cast [stance:3] Battle Stance
/cast Overpower

#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast [stance:1] Berserker Stance
/cast Mortal Strike

I've found that although you can make mistakes with this macro (change stance before op is ready etc) with the removal of rend refreshing in 4.1 its about 1-2k+ dps increase on most fights.
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#56 Shha

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:58 PM

After testing the stance dancing, I personally opted to pass on it. Reasons are as follows:

1) Firstly, the numbers people post are a bit outlandish. 2k+ dps? The whole bonus is less then 5% - its 110% vs 105% so less then 5% increase, and not everything is perfectly multiplicative, so in fact its about 4%. Then add the fact that basically the overpowers (15% of our dmg) and 1/6 of whites/opportunity strikes , dont benefit from it (since you still cast them in Battle Stance. That reduces it by further 20% so its more like 3.2% bonus now. So even at this stage to get 2k+ dps you would have to do 60k+ dps otherwise - thats likely on like halfus, but there are other factors there so lets not count that fight. For a typical 20-30k dps fight the bonus is around 600-900 dps. AT THIS STAGE.

2) You do sometimes lose rage when stance dancing, even with Tmastery. It also takes time. Granted , overpowers having 1 sec gcd make it less of an issue, but think about it this way - if due to the stance dance, over the round of 12 sec you lose 3% of time - ~350ms , you are barely breaking even. And it easily can happen. Im not even getting at major mistakes etc.

All in all I find the stance dance bonus to be below 400-600 dps - which can be significant, but its not as high as some people make it. It also only applies to single target fights - on multitarget, tclapping to spread rend etc is a better dps increase. I also have higher latency (US servers, playing from Europe ) - which might apply to some other people, making it harder.

Finally I dont believe its here to stay. Blizzard took clear efforts to make arms warriors use battle stance, and even 4.2 notes show further steps in that direction (namely making recklessness etc usable in any stance). I dont see that mechanic as intended or desired, and I expected it to be purged.

#57 Runtime

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 05:37 PM

When i add "#showtooltip Overpower" to the front of the macro, it makes overpower light up when taste for blood is active regardless of stance.

People reporting 2k+ boosts in dps from stance dancing are clearly mislead. In BIS gear and perfect rotation it would at max be 1.2k dps boost. Adding lag and human reaction time it would be more reasonably be an 800 dps boost. Its noticeable but not even half of what some people are reporting. My guess is that they aren't factoring in the free GCD every 15 seconds that they had gained this patch as well.

#58 Shha

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 05:57 PM

Again even 1.2k seem too high although way closer to the target. I think my assessment with perfect rotation but lag and reaction taken into account is around 600.

Now there is one more thing that isnt covered - to make this work, you need to overpower twice (with dance like 2.5 sec) at PRECISELY given time. There is no leeway of delaying it like you normally would, so you can make sure you hit every MS. So your rotation will miss mortal strikes, gain some slams, but overall i estimated the dps loss just from the rage loss from battle trance to 200-250. Then there is lower enrage uptime from lower number of MS.

Overall yes, i noticed a considerable dps increase in the patch. But stance dance is borderline even for me (again i do have higher then average lag which i blame for that, still i dont think with low ping it would suddenly become extremely potent).

One more thing to consider though is dropping overpowers completely, in scenarios where you have excess rage. Rend ticking/refreshing means you dont lose damage from that, and overpowers while potent due to their crit, dont hit that hard. Their main purpose is to conserve rage - which isnt always necessary. Seems fights like Sinestra for example, staying in zerker and completely ignoring overpowers could be worth it. Slam hits for 50% more from the base multiplier (comparing slam in zerker to overpower in battle) + the pretty hefty extra damage (which seems to mostly offset the white swing loss).

#59 Frudo

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:27 PM

Hello EJ

I have a question about Expertise. I notice the prot guideline stat 26 expertise, However I notice all of the high and mid game tanks are around 3-10 expertise. Did I miss something ? or is it only good between 3-26 ? Thanks for your time.

#60 Oliria

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:07 PM

Hello EJ

I have a question about Expertise. I notice the prot guideline stat 26 expertise, However I notice all of the high and mid game tanks are around 3-10 expertise. Did I miss something ? or is it only good between 3-26 ? Thanks for your time.


Expertise, aswell as hitrating now that pummel does not require hit, is purely a threat improving stat. If you do not need to produce more threat, you don't need more expertise. The reason many high end protection warriors don't gear for expertise or hit is they simply don't need more TPS.




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