Jump to content


Photo

[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm Release


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
209 replies to this topic

#1 Hinalover

Hinalover

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 307 posts
  • LocationVirginia

Posted 30 November 2010 - 10:31 PM

Well I'll post this since it seems to be the correct thread to post this in. Using the current internal build of Rawr 4 (changeset 55801), I came up with two different lists for Pre-Heroic Dungeon list as well as A pre-Raid list for Bear tanks. Both used the Night Elf Race with NO profession perks and no extra buffs. I wanted to get a list that did not favor one profession over another. Also since Dungeon comps and raid comps differ so much I did not want to favor one buff over the other. If people wish for it, I can add buffs or professions and reevaluate.

There is currently a major bug that Jothay and I are trying to figure out in which Relics seem to not want to be shown in the range slot even though all the coding indicates that it should. This does affect the results a little bit but not by much. I will post the list without the relic, and I can update this list once this bug is worked out.

Also when comparing races for bear tanks, Night elves have the lead for their mitigation followed by Tauren, Worgen, and Trolls trailing.

Pre-Heroic Dungeon list - Evaluated against level 87 mobs hitting for 80,000 unmittigated damage per hit (20,000 mitigated)
[TABLE]Slot | Name | Gems | Enchant | Reforge
Head | | | | 68 Haste -> Dodge
Neck | | | | 51 Haste -> Dodge
Shoulders | | | | 46 Haste -> Dodge
Back | | | Enchant Cloak - Protection
Chest | | | Enchant Chest - Greater Stamina | 73 Hit -> Dodge
Wrist | | | | 40 Haste -> Dodge
Hands | | | | 67 Haste -> Dodge
Waist | | | | 73 Hit -> Dodge
Legs | | | | 59 Haste -> Dodge
Feet | | | | 53 Haste -> Dodge
Ring 1 | | | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge
Ring 2 | | | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge
Trinket 1 |
Trinket 2 | | | | 86 Hit -> Dodge
Weapon | | | | 80 Haste -> Dodge
Relic |
[/TABLE]

Pre-T11 Raid list - Evaluated against level 88 mobs hitting for 100,000 unmitigated damage (25,000 mitigated damage)
[TABLE]Slot | Name | Gems | Enchant | Reforge
Head | | | | 72 Hit -> Dodge
Neck | | | | 51 Haste -> Dodge
Shoulders | | | | 52 Hit -> Dodge
Back | | | Enchant Cloak - Protection
Chest | | | Enchant Chest - Greater Stamina | 101 Crit -> Dodge
Wrist | | | | 44 Mastery -> Expertise
Hands | | | | 67 Haste -> Dodge
Waist | | | | 73 Hit -> Dodge
Legs | | | | 80 Mastery -> Dodge
Feet | | | | 60 Haste -> Dodge
Ring 1 | | | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge
Ring 2 | | | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge
Trinket 1 |
Trinket 2 | | | | 114 Hit -> Dodge
Weapon | | | | 80 Mastery -> Dodge
Relic |
[/TABLE]

Both list insists on being Parry Soft cap.

#2 Hinalover

Hinalover

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 307 posts
  • LocationVirginia

Posted 01 December 2010 - 07:39 PM

Ok, I just updated the list and I adjusted a few minor things

a) I turned off Parry haste and adjusted the base swing speed of the boss to 2.5 so that Infected wounds is able to bring down that number to usual 2 seconds. As far as I know of, none of the first tier bosses parry haste. I can change that value if we do find out that one or more of the bosses parry haste.

B) I double checked all items that are crafted or given by way of reputation, that and I was a moron in thinking was a Leatherworking only item.

@Rojans: You are correct for the most part. The back, chest, and waist are BiS for Pre-heroic and Pre-Raid items. The ring on the other hand is beaten out by for two reasons. One, it is not Unique-equip so that you can equip two of them. Secondly, it has a socket that you can place a in it. When comparing the two, with a gem in it and 45 Mastery -> Dodge reforge comes in at 22176 rating, while with a 50 Haste -> Dodge comes in at 22057.34 rating. This means that if you only get one , you can use your second slot for

@fr0d0b0ls0n: Sure. Both favor Dodge fairly high if you do not factor in Parry haste. If you do factor in Parry haste, Expertise is valued higher than Dodge until Parry haste soft cap, when it drops in value.

Pre-Heroic Dungeon
[TABLE]Stat | Rating
Stamina | 50.69
Armor | 35.77
Agility | 28.51
Dodge Rating | 21.69
Bonus Armor | 10.9
Mastery Rating | 9.49
Strength | 7.76
Expertise Rating | 6.35
Crit Rating | 6.33
Attack Power | 3.88
Hit Rating | 3.19
Health | 2.13
Haste Rating | 0.94
[/TABLE]

Pre-Tier 11 Raid
[TABLE]Stat | Rating
Stamina | 47.13
Armor | 35.54
Agility | 22.41
Dodge Rating | 19.55
Bonus Armor | 9.92
Mastery Rating | 7.41
Crit Rating | 6.35
Strength | 4.8
Expertise Rating | 4.77
Health | 3.19
Attack Power | 2.4
Hit Rating | 2.13
Haste Rating | 0.66
[/TABLE]

#3 Carebare

Carebare

    ::stare::

  • Moderators
  • 5200 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 02:32 AM

Bumping this just so that it's first page for responses. (Then I'll delete this post).

i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.


#4 Xenoborg

Xenoborg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 04:22 AM

Was the honor buy-able and Tol Barrad gear considered in your setups? I know the resilience is a loss, but based on your stat weights they are competitive if not apparently BIS for some slots due to their higher item level.

#5 Talanik

Talanik

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 152 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:06 AM

Is it a good idea to use a macro to put Thrash and Swipe on the same button? It'll cast either Swipe/Thrash depending on what order you put them in.

The one I'm tentatively about to use is

#showtooltip
/castsequence Thrash(Bear Form), Swipe(Bear Form)

So the first time I click it, it'll use Thrash. The second time, swipe. The way I see it, it'd just make AoE tanking a lot simpler by condensing your two moves into one button. The rotation would just be that macro twice, another move (e.g. Lacerate, Mangle), and then the macro twice again, and so on.

I'm just wondering if anyone sees any sort of drawback to that, or if it would be acceptable (and perhaps easier) to use.

#6 Toletheus

Toletheus

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:39 PM

I did the same thing, Talanik. Since they are both on a six second cooldown, it's easy enough to just have them on the same button in a cast sequence. My only change was that I eventually moved swipe first in the order, just because it costs significantly less rage - I wanted the cheaper ability first for those snap threat, low-rage moments where I just want to get everything's attention long enough to get the rage up for the Thrash, Maul, etc.

#7 Timberton

Timberton

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:30 AM

I'm preparing for tanking in Cataclysm and I'm brushing up on the new AOE rotations.

(linking to image until I figure out how to properly format a table)
Posted Image

Berserk refreshing the cooldown of mangle has no real impact here, due to prioritizing AOE abilities vs single target ones. At this time, the extra mangles could only be fitted in the place of one lacerate, and that will cause some issues with pulverize uptime (if pulverizing).

What I'm keen to know is, from experience, during the normal instances, which of the above rotation is closer to actual rage-sustainable rotation (if any) ?


Edited for not to confuse other druids. Thank you Talanik, it somehow escaped my mind that maul is NOT on the GCD

#8 Talanik

Talanik

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 152 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 11:10 AM

@Timberton, Maul is not on the GCD and can be used independently of Swipe and Thrash. You simply use maul whenever you have excess rage. About 50-60 is when I hit Maul.

What I've been doing for AoE threat seems to be the best I can come up with. If I'm not chain pulling and can afford to switch out of bear form, I'll pop thorns and then pull. If I'm unable to, then oh well. Either way, I start with Swipe/Thrash, then a couple tab target Mangle/Lacerates during the GCD, rinse and repeat. Don't forget to put up Demo roar sometime after the pull either. I've found it a lot more useful in the heroics nowadays when you need every bit of damage mitigation possible.

#9 Liquidska

Liquidska

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:05 PM

Also when comparing races for bear tanks, Night elves have the lead for their mitigation followed by Tauren, Worgen, and Trolls trailing.


Could you expand on this? Specifically so Worgen against Night elf? Its a given that Dodge is more valuable then crit, but to what extent does this apply? How much of a survival loss is 1% dodge versus the SD procs of 1% crit? Crit is one of the highest ranked stats for Feral DPS and I commonly fill the OT role where I will spend significant time in cat form. Additionally Shadow meld has no virtually no raid practically, while Darkflight has limited usefulness is more practical.


Is it a good idea to use a macro to put Thrash and Swipe on the same button? It'll cast either Swipe/Thrash depending on what order you put them in.

The one I'm tentatively about to use is

#showtooltip
/castsequence Thrash(Bear Form), Swipe(Bear Form)

So the first time I click it, it'll use Thrash. The second time, swipe. The way I see it, it'd just make AoE tanking a lot simpler by condensing your two moves into one button. The rotation would just be that macro twice, another move (e.g. Lacerate, Mangle), and then the macro twice again, and so on.

I'm just wondering if anyone sees any sort of drawback to that, or if it would be acceptable (and perhaps easier) to use.


I have done this and saw no real drawback. The only addition I have made is changing it to do a reset after 6 seconds. As opposed to switching back and forth between the two, the reset will make sure that you always lead off with a thrash.

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=6 Thrash, Swipe (Bear)

#10 Welshh

Welshh

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:17 PM

Could you expand on this? Specifically so Worgen against Night elf? Its a given that Dodge is more valuable then crit, but to what extent does this apply? How much of a survival loss is 1% dodge versus the SD procs of 1% crit? Crit is one of the highest ranked stats for Feral DPS and I commonly fill the OT role where I will spend significant time in cat form. Additionally Shadow meld has no virtually no raid practically, while Darkflight has limited usefulness is more practical.


Quickness has actually changed, currently it is "Reduces the chance that melee and ranged attackers will hit you by 2%." Which makes it much more useful than the 1% dodge as I think it was also effected by diminished returns while there now with the removal of defense no real way to decrease the chance a boss can hit you. Making Druids above Worgens.

#11 Felldarkness

Felldarkness

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:32 PM

Could you expand on your reasoning for reforging master into dodge, versus reforging crit; On such items as the and ? Your charts have mastery listed as more valuable than crit in both tiers.

#12 Pzychotix

Pzychotix

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 96 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:48 PM

Hey, I guess it won't matter as much in the future, but some of the pre-Heroic items require [Chaos Orb]s to make. Being as they drop in Heroics, it's kind of a catch-22 item to be putting into a pre-Heroic item category. Sure, they don't require the player themselves to be getting them, but since they're BoP, they probably won't be very widely available, if at all for the moment. Could you look into some alternatives for these slots?

#13 bbies1973

bbies1973

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:30 PM

#showtooltip
/castsequence Thrash(Bear Form), Swipe(Bear Form)

So the first time I click it, it'll use Thrash. The second time, swipe. The way I see it, it'd just make AoE tanking a lot simpler by condensing your two moves into one button. The rotation would just be that macro twice, another move (e.g. Lacerate, Mangle), and then the macro twice again, and so on.

I would add a reset value, either time based, or at a minimum with the combat variable, to ensure you always have your preferred ability up first. As mentioned before, I would prefer swipe for initial snap threat. For example:
#showtooltip 
/castsequence reset=6 Swipe(Bear Form), Thrash
That will give you Swipe first, with the macro going back to Swipe as it comes off CD 6 secs later if you don't use Thrash by then. This will most likely be the case between pulls, which is why I said you could also use "reset=combat" instead. The only problem with that one is if you (or some impatient dps) chain pulls another pack, the combat variable might reset it back to an ability that's still on CD. I prefer the timer.

Also, in regards to your suggestion of rotation, you'll actually need to pop *two* other abilities while those in the macro are on CD. A total of 4 GCDs covering 6sec to get the first of those abilities off of CD. Macro 2x and one other GCD only uses 4.5sec.

#14 Finwe_Bear

Finwe_Bear

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:06 PM

Regarding the stat ratings posted above by Hinalover, a couple of the values didn’t look quite right to me, so I did some sanity check calculations.

The value of agility seemed a bit low, so I made the following check:
Agility should be approximately .73*Dodge + .55*Crit + Strength. This looks good, so if agility is low, it’s because one of those stats are valued lower than they should be.

The ratio of dodge to armor seems low, so I looked at how much dodge and how much armor would be required to increase the damage reduction by 1%. (These values include the effects of diminishing returns and make the assumption that 1% damage reduction from armor is about the same as 1% dodge.)

In my pre-heroic set, the values were 211 dodge rating and 391 armor.
In my pre-raid set, the values were 218 dodge rating and 404 armor.
In my theoretical BiS (heroic raid) set, the values were 242 dodge rating and 457 armor.

Since in all cases, it takes more armor to get 1% reduction, then dodge rating should be more valuable than armor. Inverting the values above give dodge to armor ratios of: 1.85, 1.85, and 1.89. This makes me believe that the rating values for armor and dodge need to be adjusted, and they are actually almost reversed from what they should be. (On a side note, the armor to bonus armor ratio is dead on from my calculations, so that value should also be adjusted accordingly.)

If the values for armor and dodge are reversed, then the following stat values would also have to change: agility goes up to maintain the calculation above and bonus armor goes down to maintain its ratio with armor. Another minor change is that strength is listed as 2x AP, which means the values were not computed with the Mark of the Wild buff present. This would have the effect of slightly increasing the value of strength.

Making the changes above to the posted stat ratings would give the following:

Pre-Heroic Dungeon
[TABLE]Stat|Rating
Stamina|50.69
Agility|37.21
Dodge Rating|35.77
Armor|21.69
Mastery Rating|9.49
Strength|8.15
Bonus Armor|6.61
Expertise Rating|6.35
Crit Rating|6.33
Attack Power|3.88
Hit Rating|3.19
Health|2.13
Haste Rating|0.94[/TABLE]

Pre-Tier 11 Raid
[TABLE]Stat|Rating
Stamina|47.13
Agility|34.44
Dodge Rating|35.54
Armor|19.55
Mastery Rating|7.41
Crit Rating|6.35
Bonus Armor|5.46
Strength|5.15
Expertise Rating|4.77
Health|3.19
Attack Power|2.4
Hit Rating|2.13
Haste Rating|0.66[/TABLE]

I suspect that the other secondary stats should be valued higher as well, although at this point, the only evidence for that is the BearCADv2 spreadsheet by Fasc, which was mentioned in the older Bear thread. (I can't seem to find a link to it now.)

It would be nice to see if anyone else has been working on stat rating calculations or simulations so we can come up with balanced values that agree using multiple models.

#15 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 968 posts

Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:20 PM

Finwe,

With Hinalover's numbers coming from Rawr, I'd assume his score is a combination of threat, mitigation, and survival.

Your Dodge/Armor numbers may be correct for Mitigation (defined roughly as what % of raw incoming damage do I end up taking), but I believe Dodge has no value at all for Rawr's Survival number (defined roughly as how long will I live with no healing, and RNG going entirely against me).

Just looking at Rawr's RSV for a naked bear, I see Stamina contributes only to Survival, and Dodge contributes only to Mitigation. Armor contributes to both Mitigation and Survival, and that helps explain its high ranking in Hinalover's list.

#16 HashBrownJM

HashBrownJM

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:23 AM

Pardon my ignorance, but does the gem stacking for Pre-Tier 11 raid essentially look like a stam stack, like in Wrath? I ask because the "bear guide" on MMO definitely suggests stacking expertise gems prior to stamina.

Also, the discussion is raging on back there about dodge vs. agility. Are the added bonuses of agility worth the slight dodge loss?

In regards to a weapon enchant, they suggest Landslide while y'all suggest an agility enchant. Does Windwalk not have a place in anyone's arsenal?

#17 Makapuu

Makapuu

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:57 PM

On the gear list you state it insist on sot parry cap which I assuming to be 6.5% to remove dodge, yet none of the gear has any expertise, no reforge to expertise or any expertise at all really. It is a 0 expertise set.

Why insist on Parry soft cap and have 0 expertise? What am I missing?

#18 eduh

eduh

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 11 December 2010 - 05:02 PM

So im wondering what the armor numbers look like on your bears, right now im at 10250 caster form, and 29990 in bear form with 330 average itemlevel.
Before i repseced i was way above 35k+ armor with over 60% damage reduction :/
Was it bugged before? or is there a problem now?

#19 Marauding Master

Marauding Master

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 20 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:29 PM

Finwe,

With Hinalover's numbers coming from Rawr, I'd assume his score is a combination of threat, mitigation, and survival.

Your Dodge/Armor numbers may be correct for Mitigation (defined roughly as what % of raw incoming damage do I end up taking), but I believe Dodge has no value at all for Rawr's Survival number (defined roughly as how long will I live with no healing, and RNG going entirely against me).

Just looking at Rawr's RSV for a naked bear, I see Stamina contributes only to Survival, and Dodge contributes only to Mitigation. Armor contributes to both Mitigation and Survival, and that helps explain its high ranking in Hinalover's list.


Following this assumption, wouldn't be a good contender next to because it provides both static mitigation and an optional cooldown for survival, albeit a small one?

#20 Vaccine

Vaccine

    Mr. Sandman

  • Members
  • 5325 posts

Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:56 PM

Spotted an error, in the OP list it suggests reforging haste to dodge on Boots of the Predator, but they only have hit/crit.
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users