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[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm Release


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#21 Szynszyla

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:50 PM

Following this assumption, wouldn't be a good contender next to because it provides both static mitigation and an optional cooldown for survival, albeit a small one?


I'd assume that old is also BiS for those who obtained the item before cataclysm, since we value armor so high, even the old glove enchant with armor at the moment looks about 4 times better.

The stcking stamina with so huge amount of armor is a great bonus along, but i noticed that it barely stacks on mobs 85+, even on huge aoe packs. Might be unlucky but it would require more testing.

#22 MatsT

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 05:15 PM

Following this assumption, wouldn't be a good contender next to because it provides both static mitigation and an optional cooldown for survival, albeit a small one?


Since trinkets by default have 0 armor all the armor on trinkets counts as "Bonus Armor" rather than just "Armor". Basically this means it doesn't get increased by Bear Form causing it to have a much lower value and thus loses out to stamina trinkets. might still be ok since it seems they chose not to to nerf trinkets in the general bonus armor shaft that occured.

#23 Frnit

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:11 PM

Wouldn't rate higher than ?
With pre-raid ratings, comparison shows them almost equal but doesn't seem to count in 2 sockets from .

#24 kalbear

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:56 PM

Since trinkets by default have 0 armor all the armor on trinkets counts as "Bonus Armor" rather than just "Armor". Basically this means it doesn't get increased by Bear Form causing it to have a much lower value and thus [Heart of Thunder] loses out to stamina trinkets. [Unidentifiable Organ] might still be ok since it seems they chose not to to nerf trinkets in the general bonus armor shaft that occured.

While it doesn't get multplied 2000 armor is still a large amount of mitigation. Given the importance of actually reducing damage instead of soaking it both UO and have good value going forward. I expect them to be nerfed.

#25 daemitus

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:17 PM

Now while I've only stepped into 10man raids a handful of times so far, I'm curious as to why we favor stamina so much, since bosses don't hit for half our hp anymore. Considering that mana is more the limiting factor, wouldnt dodge/mitigation be king instead of stamina for gems?

My RL and I went back and forth on this, his arguments seem quite solid.

#26 skeldi

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 09:27 PM

Now while I've only stepped into 10man raids a handful of times so far, I'm curious as to why we favor stamina so much, since bosses don't hit for half our hp anymore. Considering that mana is more the limiting factor, wouldnt dodge/mitigation be king instead of stamina for gems?

My RL and I went back and forth on this, his arguments seem quite solid.


more stam = larger possible vengeance = larger absorb from mastery = greater possible mitigation?

That's the theory at least. Would still need to run the actual math.

#27 Hoofhearted

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:30 PM

It's possible that hardmode raids will favor stamina, but for all normal raids currently you should gem agility.
If vengeance is always maxed which it never is, 60 stamina will give you a bit over 100 attackpower. 40 agility gives you 100 no matter how hard you are being hit plus the other benefits of agility. The only argument for stamina is not being gibbed and that isn't happening this week.

#28 bbies1973

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:05 AM

One concern with the pre-heroic gear list: it lists crafted items that require heroic drops as materials to make. Certainly the AH is an option, however at this point in the game, that's only if you're filthy rich and at least half of your server is geared beyond needing them for themselves, their guildmates, or alts.

For some reason, I am unable to get Rawr4 to load a character. Would it be possible to list the next best items that don't require Chaos Orbs?

Also, I notice no boot enchants?
Based on the relative stat values in the OP I would go with Heavy Savage Armor Kit for 44 STA?

#29 Helistar

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:23 AM

more stam = larger possible vengeance = larger absorb from mastery = greater possible mitigation?


If this were the case then mastery would be a good stat. After the nerf, it clearly isn't, when talking about TTL. BTW it would be good to provide some information on how those coefficients were obtained (rawr does mix'n'match with survival/mitigation/threat). From the look of it they are from a TTL/survival-heavy model, which strongly favors stamina and guaranteed mitigation compared to avoidance. From what I'm seeing, healer mana is much more of an issue than TTL, this means that mitigation (=armor, guaranteed + mastery/crit, random) and expecially avoidance (=agility) should rank a lot higher.

#30 Vaccine

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:41 AM

For a pre-heroic chest I don't think you can beat and it is easily obtainable off of vendors. You get ridiculous amounts of reputation just running Hyjal so should be no dungeon running required.

As for boot enchant, it is the best if you don't care about run speed. If you want a run speed one, it looks like the old Tuskarr's 15 stamina one is probably still the best eding out the 25 agility one. The 35 mastery one seems really bad.

I've got a question about the OP's gear list. On the Elementium Poleaxe and Elementium Destroyer's rings he reforges mastery to dodge, instead of crit. Now I can see on the rings why this is done, the mastery stat on the ring is higher than the crit stat, so the reforged dodge is a higher value than if the crit were reforged. But on the poleaxe, the values are equal. Why is the mastery reforged to dodge instead of the crit, when both stats are equal and both the pre-heroic and pre-raid AEP list shows Mastery as higher rating than crit?

Edit: Just had it pointed out to me I missed that there was a new stamina on boots enchant, Earthen Vitality, which blows the agi and mastery ones away.
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#31 MessiQ

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:44 PM

Pardon my ignorance, but does the gem stacking for Pre-Tier 11 raid essentially look like a stam stack, like in Wrath? I ask because the "bear guide" on MMO definitely suggests stacking expertise gems prior to stamina.


Many players are advocating stacking stamina while healers are struggling to heal, simply because this offers more cushion for things to go wrong. However, at a reasonable health pool from gear, it is much more important for tanks in general to ensure they are at (or at least as close as they can get) to the hit and expertise caps in order to maximise their TPS as well as make sure taunts never miss. If you miss a taunt on a mob attacking a healer then it doesn't matter how much stamina you have ;)

Also, the discussion is raging on back there about dodge vs. agility. Are the added bonuses of agility worth the slight dodge loss?


I've been looking at the benefit of agility vs dodge as well as the benefit of agility vs stamina.

Essentially, dodge gives mitigation only and doesn't benefit from kings/motw. On gear alone the dodge% from the dodge rating will never be as high as what you gain from agility, which means reforging and gemming is the only way to benefit from increasing this which I feel is giving away too much because of the extra benefit of agility and losing the stat you reforge with, but there should be some hard numbers to back this up somewhere to give a definate answer.

As for stamina vs agility I think many overlook the benefit of agility. While stamina is great at the start as I said, it lacks the bonuses of agility. Extra health will grant AP from Vengeance, BUT, agility will net you greater AP and more importantly have constant uptime compared to vengeance needing to stack (and dropping off through mitigation). This results in agility giving more consistent mitigation from Savage Defence than stamina will. Agility will also net more AP for threat as well as increasing your dodge for mitigation (see previous post about agility vs dodge though) as well as increasing your crit chance which effectively increases SD uptime and mitigation from this.

All in all I think it looks more beneficial overall for agility stacking rather than anything else since agility effects multiple stats. Save for specific fights where extra health pool may be a better option, agility seems like it is more important than ever before for bears.

#32 beleg_strongbow

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:50 PM

more stam = larger possible vengeance = larger absorb from mastery = greater possible mitigation?


I'm sorry but I've read it a lot of times but I cannot comprehend it.

Why is more stamina equal to larger absorbs from mastery?

The tooltip says: Increases the damage absorbed by your Savage Defense ability by 32%. Each point of Mastery increases the absorb by an additional 4%.

So where's the stamina part?

as well as make sure taunts never miss. If you miss a taunt on a mob attacking a healer then it doesn't matter how much stamina you have ;)


Taunt's do not miss anymore - they've changed that.

#33 Treee

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:50 PM

I went Bastion of Twilight 10 man as MT last night. The healer never healed me to full life cause of mana problems.
I was sittig at 20-50% at the whole fight. I am stamina gemmed atm.

For hardmodes i agree that stamina could be the best cause to survice the hard hitting bosses.

Is it just 25 man where stamina beats all other stats? In 10 man the bosses don't hit as hard as 25 man bosses so maybe for 10 man mitigation beats stamina.

Anyone tested stamina vs agi/dodge in 10 man?

(sorry for bad english)

#34 Pyrates

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:55 PM

So where's the stamina part?


Check out vengeance: Vengeance - Spell - World of Warcraft

#35 MatsT

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:36 PM

I went Bastion of Twilight 10 man as MT last night. The healer never healed me to full life cause of mana problems.
I was sittig at 20-50% at the whole fight. I am stamina gemmed atm.

For hardmodes i agree that stamina could be the best cause to survice the hard hitting bosses.

Is it just 25 man where stamina beats all other stats? In 10 man the bosses don't hit as hard as 25 man bosses so maybe for 10 man mitigation beats stamina.

Anyone tested stamina vs agi/dodge in 10 man?

(sorry for bad english)


Let's look at some very basic math. I looked through a recent Halfus Wyrmbreaker kill for an anonymous guild. In total, the healing done for the encounter was around 9 million. Halfus attacked the main tank roughly 100 times and each hit was for an average of 28k damage. Let's say the tank manages to increase his dodge amazingly with 10%. This would cause roughly 10 less hits or 280k less damage. Looking at 9 million total damage, this means around 3% less healing required in total. This is not a lot of saved mana for the healers, barely noticeable. Still, this was when the tank inreased his dodge chance by 10% which is a lot, especially considering diminishing returns. 1760 dodge rating before diminishing returns, probably 2300-2500 with? For that same item budget your tank could get 3500 stamina or 40k+ hp. I can promise you this would increase your chances of beating the encounter a lot more.

Obviously agility is a lot better than straight up dodge rating, but in order to make a fair comparison you need to have an insight into the quite marginal benefits provided by dodge. If your healers are having mana troubles, it's typically not because your tank isn't dodging enough but rather because your raid isn't avoiding enough aoe damage. It's impossible to strain healers mana just by damage to the tank without too much tank gibs. In all of wows history mana spent effectively healing the main tank has never been an issue and I don't see that changing even with increased hp pools.

#36 Pudgeball

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:39 PM

EDIT - Early morning = switching Vengeance to be for each point of stam instead of health ;o I'll rewrite a more clear sta vs agi post later.

#37 beleg_strongbow

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:41 PM

Ok now you have me:
Savage Defence 35% of AP * 32% Reduce due to Savage Defender + 4% per point of Mastery

So with 10.000 AP and 5 Mastery you have 10.000 AP * 0,35*(1,32+0,2) = 5320 points of damage absobed.

The higher AP (eg due to Vengance) and/or the higher Mastery the more damage is absorbed.

Right?

#38 Pudgeball

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:48 PM

The higher AP (eg due to Vengance) and/or the higher Mastery the more damage is absorbed.

Right?


Yes, Attack Power and Mastery both increase the amount of damage you'll absorb from Savage Defense.

#39 kalbear

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:39 PM

However, at a reasonable health pool from gear, it is much more important for tanks in general to ensure they are at (or at least as close as they can get) to the hit and expertise caps in order to maximise their TPS as well as make sure taunts never miss.

While taunts might be important for some raiding encounters threat is almost completely unimportant at this time. Right now tanks have an absurd threat lead, especially when vengeance kicks in. It's really a non-issue for raiding at this point.

#40 coredumperror

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:52 PM

Let's look at some very basic math. I looked through a recent Halfus Wyrmbreaker kill for an anonymous guild. In total, the healing done for the encounter was around 9 million. Halfus attacked the main tank roughly 100 times and each hit was for an average of 28k damage. Let's say the tank manages to increase his dodge amazingly with 10%. This would cause roughly 10 less hits or 280k less damage. Looking at 9 million total damage, this means around 3% less healing required in total. This is not a lot of saved mana for the healers, barely noticeable. Still, this was when the tank inreased his dodge chance by 10% which is a lot, especially considering diminishing returns. 1760 dodge rating before diminishing returns, probably 2300-2500 with? For that same item budget your tank could get 3500 stamina or 40k+ hp. I can promise you this would increase your chances of beating the encounter a lot more.


Sure, that might be 3% less healing across the whole raid, but do all the healers heal the raid equally? If you're saving the tank healer 280k HP worth of mana, that is potentially much more significant than 3%. Especially when you consider that +10% dodge is far better than -10% damage taken, since you've already got a decent amount of avoidance to begin with (20% dodge =~ 80% dmg taken, adding 10% means reducing dmg by 10/80 = .125, or 12.5% less damage). I think.

Also, I'm mostly ignorant on this, but it DR really that bad at this gear level? I'd love to know what the math is on that.

Plus, you wouldn't necessarily be stacking just dodge rating for that extra 10% dodge. A lot of that would more likely be AGI, which has enormous benefits above and beyond increased dodge chance.




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