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[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm Release


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#41 MatsT

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:07 PM

While taunts might be important for some raiding encounters threat is almost completely unimportant at this time. Right now tanks have an absurd threat lead, especially when vengeance kicks in. It's really a non-issue for raiding at this point.


According to this thread on Tankspot, taunts can no longer miss even with 0 hit rating. Hit and expertise are certainly the best threat stats, but as you say threat is currently a non-issue.

#42 Grend

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:11 PM

According to this thread on Tankspot, taunts can no longer miss even with 0 hit rating. Hit and expertise are certainly the best threat stats, but as you say threat is currently a non-issue.


It is still important to be hit-capped even though Taunt cannot miss anymore if you are interrupting. Personally I was in charge of half the interrupts on our Halfus attempts last night and having Skull Bash miss is not only annoying, but can cause at best mana issues and at worse a wipe.

Right now I'm at 8.03% hit (with out reforging anything TO hit), but I've reforged all gear with haste to expertise and I'm still below Dodge cap (albeit only by .5%). Am I wasting all that potential Haste -> Dodge Rating? I feel like getting close to the dodge cap for expertise is a good goal since clearly Parry cap is practically unobtainable without gimping yourself. Anyone agree/disagree? What expertise rating are you comfortable with?

#43 Kioga

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:09 PM

I keep seeing people state "once you reach a reasonable HP" to gem avoidance (agi/dodge). I see that a LOT but do we know the magic number for heroics and normal raids? I'm around 134k right now with mostly quest blues + 2 JP items with just MARK (Fort makes it 150K). Is that a "reasonable" HP or do I need to shoot for more stam before gemming agi? What HP level are the rest of you successfully running with?

#44 Erdluf

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:31 PM

Let's say the tank manages to increase his dodge amazingly with 10%. This would cause roughly 10 less hits or 280k less damage. Looking at 9 million total damage, this means around 3% less healing required in total. This is not a lot of saved mana for the healers, barely noticeable.


Actually, the mana cost for a healer to get a small increase in HPS is very significant.

If you download treecalcs101204.xls from the resto thread, and don't touch anything, you'll currently see on the 'Main' tab:

24145 HPS
239s till out of mana
5.3% of healing is from Nourish.

I'm going to change all of his Nourish casts to Healing Touch casts. The spreadsheet doesn't directly support that, but I'll go to the "Heals" tab and copy the HT column to the Nourish column, and that has the same effect.

Now on the main page we se

26432 HPS: a 9.5% increase in healing.
121s till out of mana: you'd better kill the boss twice as quickly.
13.5% of healing is from Nourish (aka HT), roughly a 150% increase.

To get even more healing he'd have to change his spec (to increase Regrowth crit, so that Regrowth HPS > HT HPS), and start replacing HT casts with Regrowth casts, for much, much worse healing efficiency.

Your healers have damage levels that they can support very cheaply (Druid: Rejuv+Rolling lifebloom+Swiftmend+Clearcast HT+Nourish). Increases to that level are extremely expensive (meaning not sustainable).

Edit: The numbers above included some raid healing. Single target, that particular tree can
Heal 10-12k HPS forever.
Heal 19-20K HPS for one minute before going OOM.
Cannot exceed 20k HPS for more than a few seconds.

#45 Phallan1

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:45 PM

As i haven't had to tank raids yet, i am only going off of what happened in a heroic SFK run last night. Running with a paladin healer i was asked why I was so much easier to heal than their druid tank. When i asked what stats their tank preferred i was told that he is stacking agility and dodge gems, where i am stacking agility and mastery, since i am using my kitty gear to tank and tanking trinkets to make up for health. Is mastery being under weighted as a stat for tanking?

#46 kalbear

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:51 PM

In general mastery is going to excel in situations where you will take small amounts of damage often. Mastery is essentially akin to block value in that regard, and for the same reason that warriors and paladins made heroics easier last expansion druids can make heroics easier via mastery in this one. Mastery will smooth out damage intake as well as sometimes absorb close to 100% of the damage from mobs. Dodge simply doesn't scale as well for lower amounts of incoming damage.

I wouldn't gauge how easy or difficult someone is to heal in a heroic compared to raids. The difference between having multiple healers, raid buffs, and significantly larger damage intake is quite large.

#47 Blazefire

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 08:02 PM

So im wondering what the armor numbers look like on your bears, right now im at 10250 caster form, and 29990 in bear form with 330 average itemlevel.
Before i repseced i was way above 35k+ armor with over 60% damage reduction :/
Was it bugged before? or is there a problem now?


I noticed a similar thing. Almost a week ago, unbuffed I had ~40k AC (mostly heroic gear) and now a few days later I'm down to ~31k AC. I respec'd at some point during the past couple days, but don't know if that's what caused it, since old/new specs both had the AC talent. Was there a stealth nerf? Or bug as suggested above? Has anyone else noticed/experienced this?

#48 Oddakos

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:34 PM

In general mastery is going to excel in situations where you will take small amounts of damage often. Mastery is essentially akin to block value in that regard, and for the same reason that warriors and paladins made heroics easier last expansion druids can make heroics easier via mastery in this one. Mastery will smooth out damage intake as well as sometimes absorb close to 100% of the damage from mobs. Dodge simply doesn't scale as well for lower amounts of incoming damage.


Mastery is strictly inferior to Blocking in the scenario of many smaller attacks because Savage Defense only blocks one attack (no matter how small) and must be regained by our attacks. As the number of attackers increases, the window of opportunity for a bear to crit and proc SD decreases significantly and less attacks will be absorbed.

A current example is Halfus Wyrmbreaker. We put our Prot Warrior on tanking one of the spare drakes plus all of the whelps because his significant chance (~44% with his mastery) to reduce each attack by a flat 30% (plus critical block, and he licks to stack mastery) is amazing. In our first kill, he blocked 1.6 million damage taken while I was tanking Halfus as bear, and my SD procs were fully used on every proc since Halfus was hitting slow and hard.

Rawr recommends stacking dodge and expertise (parry hasted 100k hits is the default) while you are gearing up for raids (333-346 blues). If you input a full set of 359 epics, the higher mastery & AP/crit from gear shifts in favor of Savage Defense being the major damage reducer and then suddenly SD is proc'ing more and worth more per proc (higher crit rate from the higher agility, and more absorbed per proc from the higher AP).

#49 kalbear

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:55 PM

stery is strictly inferior to Blocking in the scenario of many smaller attacks because Savage Defense only blocks one attack (no matter how small) and must be regained by our attacks. As the number of attackers increases, the window of opportunity for a bear to crit and proc SD decreases significantly and less attacks will be absorbed.

I agree. However, when comparing why bear A takes less damage than bear B in a heroic and one stacks mastery vs the other dodge, that's the reason why.

There is no parry haste for anyone any more, so stacking expertise is a poor choice for that reason. If Rawr is doing that because expertise stops parry haste it is wrong. I suspect Rawr recommends expertise because up until the dodge cap expertise is a very efficient way to get more SD procs.

#50 lairpie

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:47 AM

Against lots of small attacks, dodge gets better in comparison to mastery, not worse. A far more likely answer is something like demo shout, actually using skull bash on casts, making sure the adds are in front of you, tabbing around to hit each add with infected wounds, or something like that, rather than a minor difference in gearing.

#51 Nosajtpno

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:02 AM

I agree. However, when comparing why bear A takes less damage than bear B in a heroic and one stacks mastery vs the other dodge, that's the reason why.

There is no parry haste for anyone any more, so stacking expertise is a poor choice for that reason. If Rawr is doing that because expertise stops parry haste it is wrong. I suspect Rawr recommends expertise because up until the dodge cap expertise is a very efficient way to get more SD procs.


This is the second post I've seen on EJ today mentioning how expertise gives more SD procs. Unless everything I know about the combat table is wrong, this is just wrong (unless you're crit capped in bear form I suppose) Is there something I'm missing here?

#52 Derps

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:28 AM

I tanked Halfus Wyrmbreaker for our raid tonight and last night, we got him tonight after we switched the warrior onto Halfus and me onto adds. I couldn't get enough SD procs to make it worthwhile for me to stay on Halfus, because we had the Nether Scion as one of our drakes, giving him 100% haste.

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Is this a problem with my gearing or are bears really meant to be a squishier tank than warriors? After we switched to the warrior tank we got him in two attempts, after at least 3-4 hours of wiping overall. I originally was reforged for dodge but I changed to mastery for tonight's attempts with little noticeable increase or decrease in overall damage taken. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't really improve my gear and this entry level boss was murdering me, is anyone else having a similar experience?

#53 tangedyn

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:53 AM

This is the second post I've seen on EJ today mentioning how expertise gives more SD procs. Unless everything I know about the combat table is wrong, this is just wrong (unless you're crit capped in bear form I suppose) Is there something I'm missing here?


Yellow attacks are on a two roll table where avoidance is rolled first before checking for crits. Your actual Yellow Crit% = c * (1-m-d) where c = your white crit strike chance, m = miss chance and d = dodge chance
In some cases, if your Critical Strike% is high enough ( c > (1-m-d)/2 ), you may even get more Yellow Crit% out 1 Expertise Rating than from 1 Critical Strike Rating

#54 Helistar

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:40 PM

Mastery is strictly inferior to Blocking in the scenario of many smaller attacks because Savage Defense only blocks one attack (no matter how small) and must be regained by our attacks. As the number of attackers increases, the window of opportunity for a bear to crit and proc SD decreases significantly and less attacks will be absorbed.


Unless this was changed from WotLK, the SD "block" does not vanish instantly, but there's a small time window where it's still up and blocking even after you got hit the 1st time, Time to do some tests to see if it's still the case in Cataclysm....

#55 Treee

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:42 PM

Yellow attacks are on a two roll table where avoidance is rolled first before checking for crits. Your actual Yellow Crit% = c * (1-m-d) where c = your white crit strike chance, m = miss chance and d = dodge chance
In some cases, if your Critical Strike% is high enough ( c > (1-m-d)/2 ), you may even get more Yellow Crit% out 1 Expertise Rating than from 1 Critical Strike Rating


So does this apply to hit, too?
And when there is crit and expertise on an item, we should reforge crit -> dodge?

#56 MatsT

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 02:47 PM

So does this apply to hit, too?
And when there is crit and expertise on an item, we should reforge crit -> dodge?


It does apply to hit, but since 1% hit only helps half as much as 1% expertise (below 6.5% expertise) you would need to fulfill c > 1-m-d instead of c > (1-d-m)/2. Since 1% crit requires more rating than 1% expertise, its actually feasible to be at the point where one expertise rating gives more proccs from special attacks than one crit rating. When you bring white hits back into the equation you will never (in this tier or the next at least) be able to reach a crit value where expertise gives more proccs in total.

#57 glaukopes

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:16 PM

a) I turned off Parry haste and adjusted the base swing speed of the boss to 2.5 so that Infected wounds is able to bring down that number to usual 2 seconds. As far as I know of, none of the first tier bosses parry haste. I can change that value if we do find out that one or more of the bosses parry haste.


Infected Wounds increases the seconds between swings rather than decreases. Starting with a swing timer of 2.5 seconds and then applying Infected Wounds would result in a very slow swing time of 3.0 seconds, not 2.0 seconds. If you want the post-Infected Wounds swing time to be 2.0 seconds, you should adjust the swing timer to 1.666 (repeating, of course) seconds.

#58 Kintoun

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:19 AM

I tanked Halfus Wyrmbreaker for our raid tonight and last night, we got him tonight after we switched the warrior onto Halfus and me onto adds. I couldn't get enough SD procs to make it worthwhile for me to stay on Halfus, because we had the Nether Scion as one of our drakes, giving him 100% haste.

Coconutowl @ Frostwolf - Game - World of Warcraft

Is this a problem with my gearing or are bears really meant to be a squishier tank than warriors? After we switched to the warrior tank we got him in two attempts, after at least 3-4 hours of wiping overall. I originally was reforged for dodge but I changed to mastery for tonight's attempts with little noticeable increase or decrease in overall damage taken. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't really improve my gear and this entry level boss was murdering me, is anyone else having a similar experience?

You're full expertise reforged. Convert nearly all of that (sims say all) to dodge instead. That will give you a huge mit increase (will make trash in heroics hell w/o expertise though). Expertise does nothing for survival/mit anymore, and threat is a non issue other than on the pull. I tanked Halfus in a 3 tank strat so he had no buffs and I was getting beat pretty bad. I also had much better than entry level gear (ailvl 352). I'd chalk this up as Druids not being equal to Warriors. I have yet to see a warrior tank in Cata however.

#59 tangedyn

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:30 AM

So does this apply to hit, too?
And when there is crit and expertise on an item, we should reforge crit -> dodge?


To a lesser extend. I mentioned (1-m-d), but it's actually (1-m-d-p) where p = chance of being parried.
1 expertise reduces the chance of being dodged and being parried, so it gives twice the benefit of hit, at least until the soft expertise cap.

Ya, my preference when it comes to reforging is dodge > mastery > expertise > critical strike. At some gear points, even before expertise cap, critical strike may be very slightly better than expertise for mitigation, but threat-wise expertise is so much better than critical strikes that it's worth the insignificant sacrifice.

#60 Talanik

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:31 AM

So I'm going over logs from recent Halfus Wyrmbreaker, Maloriak, and Omnitron kills. (I'd post them, but they're set to private for some reason).

What I found is that I'm taking much less average damage per hit as opposed to Warriors/Paladins, but more damage overall due to the lack of block and avoidance. Damage seems to be much spikier on me as opposed to the Warrior/Paladin. Granted, that's how druids have generally always been as tanks - but we also had much larger stamina pools to compensate, which clearly isn't the case anymore.

This leads me to two general questions.

1. Will, as our gear improves, our mitigation improve at a scale greater than that of warriors/paladins to a point where we take roughly the same amount of damage? Unlike them, our mitigation isn't always present and is reliant on our critical strike chance and attack power

2. If not, are there any advantages or any reasons for a competitive raiding guild to take a druid tank over a Warrior/Paladin?

If anyone would like specific data from the logs, I can always transcribe it onto here.




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