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[Feral-Cat] Cataclysm Release


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#21 righthorn

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:04 PM

Primal madness is a separate buff from tiger's fury. You can cancel one without affecting the other. In the case you've mentioned, if you lose the buff when over 20 energy, all you've done is gotten an 'energy advance' of 6 seconds; you were essentially able to use the 20 energy (that you 'lost' when the buff fell off) 6 seconds earlier. However, it still nets a non-negative dps change, as you were able to use that 20 energy under the effect of tiger's fury.

As for canceling, any time you are at 0 energy, or as close to it is the best time to cancel the buff.

#22 Blackdahlia90

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:29 PM

Is the mastery bonus apllied only when a bleed is put up or does your bleed scale with say a mastery proc? Because I want to maximize the damage my bleeds do since stacking mastery had a huge effect on my dps.


Things that increase bleed damage also increase your shred damage. Keep that in mind as well.

#23 kalbear

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:24 PM

Things that increase bleed damage also increase your shred damage. Keep that in mind as well.

This is incorrect; Mastery does not increase shred damage.

TF is worth about 2% more DPS; SR is a bit less than that. They're both close. Keep in mind that the TF glyph not only gives you 60/80 more energy in a 5 minute fight, it also gives you 15% more damage more often in that fight.

#24 Blackdahlia90

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:37 PM

This is incorrect; Mastery does not increase shred damage.

TF is worth about 2% more DPS; SR is a bit less than that. They're both close. Keep in mind that the TF glyph not only gives you 60/80 more energy in a 5 minute fight, it also gives you 15% more damage more often in that fight.



Has the math been done on Mastery effecting Shred? Cause if not the tooltips on shred and feral cat mastery suggest it.

Also in 5 minutes you get 1 extra Tiger's Fury, which I admit is nice. But that's 15% damage for 6 seconds rather than 5% extra auto-attack damage for 5 minutes. In 5 minutes as well that's suggesting you use it whenever it is up, rather than when your low on energy or using it with berserk/to increase bleed damage. So if you arent using it within 3 seconds of TF coming off cd then it's a wasted glyph.

Also you have to aknowledge the SR glyphs damage will increase with the more haste you have. I personally feel that TF is more of a PvP glyph.

#25 Brun

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:59 PM

Also you have to aknowledge the SR glyphs damage will increase with the more haste you have. I personally feel that TF is more of a PvP glyph.


TF's advantage probably becomes more pronounced when you're minimizing hit/expertise (which provides theoretical DPS maximums). The extra white hit misses will devalue the SR glyph.

#26 Blackdahlia90

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 12:29 AM

TF's advantage probably becomes more pronounced when you're minimizing hit/expertise (which provides theoretical DPS maximums). The extra white hit misses will devalue the SR glyph.


Yeah, this still doesn't change the fact though that you have to be hitting TF within 3 seconds of it coming off CD to make the glyph viable. Even then if you are doing that you aren't always saving it to increase your dot damage or retrieve lost energy. Which in my opinion is what TF should be used for. Where as you will still have well over a couple hundred white hits.

Also minimizing your hit/exp is theoretical. I still find not to be capped but to have it is very useful. For instance hitting a rip and missing, then hitting the rip again and parrying (which will happen at the minimum), then finally applying. By this point you've lost somewhat the energy as well as spammed the same button through 3 gcds. Where with a certain (not capped) amount of exp/hit would have made it able to use 1 rip and 1 shred then start building energy towards other abilities we may need to use. This especially can be important when you need a unexpected cower, or have SR, Rip, and Rake all falling off close together.

Though I think having minimum expertise/hit will lower the damage cause by SR I still think it's better. Also if you decrease your hit/exp and gain a lot of haste instead, you will still be doing more auto-attacks.

#27 kalbear

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 04:22 AM

Also minimizing your hit/exp is theoretical. I still find not to be capped but to have it is very useful. For instance hitting a rip and missing, then hitting the rip again and parrying (which will happen at the minimum), then finally applying. By this point you've lost somewhat the energy as well as spammed the same button through 3 gcds. Where with a certain (not capped) amount of exp/hit would have made it able to use 1 rip and 1 shred then start building energy towards other abilities we may need to use. This especially can be important when you need a unexpected cower, or have SR, Rip, and Rake all falling off close together.

Yes, the variance can be higher when you don't maximize hit/expertise, but for every streak that goes like you describe there are other situations where the extra crit/mastery that you have instead of hit/expertise increases your overall damage. In specific situations you can always find places where hit/expertise are superior. But that doesn't change the fact that because bleeds can be reapplied without loss of time on the dots, can be overwritten and most of the damage does not rely on hit/expertise, and that bleeds are about 60% of a feral's overall damage, hit just isn't that necessary. The same was true of afffliction locks back in the day.

#28 Blackdahlia90

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 04:37 AM

Yes, the variance can be higher when you don't maximize hit/expertise, but for every streak that goes like you describe there are other situations where the extra crit/mastery that you have instead of hit/expertise increases your overall damage. In specific situations you can always find places where hit/expertise are superior. But that doesn't change the fact that because bleeds can be reapplied without loss of time on the dots, can be overwritten and most of the damage does not rely on hit/expertise, and that bleeds are about 60% of a feral's overall damage, hit just isn't that necessary. The same was true of afffliction locks back in the day.


I said in my last post the I don't believe hit/exp cap is necessary, however I personally don't think being at the min is dependable for dps. My druid isn't hit/exp cap, but I definitely make sure to have some.

#29 Nich

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 01:23 PM

Is hit/expertise needed to reliably interrupt?

I'd like to offer moral support, but I have questionable morals

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#30 Ristaccia

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 12:03 AM

I'm sitting at ~2.5% hit and 4 expertise and haven't missed a skull bash (cat) since Cataclysm hit. I would say that it's incredibly safe to assume that while Maim can be missed/dodged/parried, Skull Bash ignores hit cap.

-edited to mention cat.

#31 Milou

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 01:39 AM

I'm sitting at ~2.5% hit and 4 expertise and haven't missed a skull bash since Cataclysm hit. I would say that it's incredibly safe to assume that while Maim can be missed/dodged/parried, Skull Bash ignores hit cap.


That is incorrect, I had a skull bash (bear) miss on Halfus the other night. I am now keeping hit capped for raiding because of this.

#32 eXcel905

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:55 AM

Anyone got the math on Rawr vs Mew? When I plug in the values into Rawr I get haste coming on top of crit raid buffed, however Mew is giving me crit over haste in raid buffs. Anyone have the numbers crunched or a reason as to why one is coming out different than the other?

#33 shramp

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:04 AM

That is incorrect, I had a skull bash (bear) miss on Halfus the other night. I am now keeping hit capped for raiding because of this.


I have a log that clearly shows: even if Skull Bash (Cat) misses, it still interrupts the cast. I've checked that there was no other iterrupt. Log is in russian so if you don't mind I will translate:

[22:27:12.694] Arcanotron begins to cast Arcane Annihilator
[22:27:13.574] Rei casts Skull Bash on Arcanotron
[22:27:13.574] Rei Skull Bash Arcanotron Miss
[22:27:16.660] Arcanotron's Skull Bash fades
[22:27:19.896] Arcanotron begins to cast Arcane Annihilator


Here is the log and query if somebody could point me to cast that interrupted it and prove me wrong.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
[{"eventTypes": [7]}, {"spellNames": ["Волшебный уничтожитель"]}, {"spellNames": ["Лобовая атака"]}]



#34 Milou

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:04 PM

Looked over logs again and I see that you're right Shramp. I don't have the actual log file any more but I pulled this segment from world of logs. One curious part is when my skull bash was parried the skull bash appears to fire twice.

[21:34:10.199] Ourse casts Skull Bash on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
[21:34:10.268] Halfus Wyrmbreaker afflicted by Skull Bash from Ourse
[21:34:20.230] Halfus Wyrmbreaker's Skull Bash fades
[21:34:25.238] Ourse casts Skull Bash on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
[21:34:25.370] Ourse casts Skull Bash on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
[21:34:25.370] Ourse Skull Bash Halfus Wyrmbreaker Parry
[21:34:25.438] Halfus Wyrmbreaker afflicted by Skull Bash from Ourse
[21:34:35.468] Halfus Wyrmbreaker's Skull Bash fades


#35 Spectras

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:36 PM

Mastery: Increases the damage done by your bleed abilities by X%
Shred: Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage

Has anyone done any testing to confirm/deny if Shred is increased by mastery? So far in this post we have 1 person saying yes and 1 person saying no. I think this is too important to overlook, should mastery actually increase it.

#36 TheJinchuuriki

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Spectras
Has anyone done any testing to confirm/deny if Shred is increased by mastery? So far in this post we have 1 person saying yes and 1 person saying no. I think this is too important to overlook, should mastery actually increase it.


While I am also curious it seems mastery is already the top stat so this research doesn't have much relevance to our current stat weights.

#37 eXcel905

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 07:18 PM

Mastery: Increases the damage done by your bleed abilities by X%
Shred: Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage

Has anyone done any testing to confirm/deny if Shred is increased by mastery? So far in this post we have 1 person saying yes and 1 person saying no. I think this is too important to overlook, should mastery actually increase it.


After testing this quickly, and in a Simple way it seems that mastery DOES NOT affect shred damage. I went completly naked and tested shred damage (with mangle up and without), used an alchemy trinket, tested it again, used another +mastery trinket and tested once again all resulted in the same amount of damage with 0 deviation from other tests.

#38 dundermuffin

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:16 PM

Looked over logs again and I see that you're right Shramp. I don't have the actual log file any more but I pulled this segment from world of logs. One curious part is when my skull bash was parried the skull bash appears to fire twice.

[21:34:10.199] Ourse casts Skull Bash on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
[21:34:10.268] Halfus Wyrmbreaker afflicted by Skull Bash from Ourse
[21:34:20.230] Halfus Wyrmbreaker's Skull Bash fades
[21:34:25.238] Ourse casts Skull Bash on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
[21:34:25.370] Ourse casts Skull Bash on Halfus Wyrmbreaker
[21:34:25.370] Ourse Skull Bash Halfus Wyrmbreaker Parry
[21:34:25.438] Halfus Wyrmbreaker afflicted by Skull Bash from Ourse
[21:34:35.468] Halfus Wyrmbreaker's Skull Bash fades


Skull bash is a 2 part spell; the interrupt part does not miss, ever. The debuff part (+10% mana cost) is based on hit, and thus can miss.

#39 Milou

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:21 PM

That's what I figured, but it is interesting that the spell only shows up as two separate spells when it fails to hit.

#40 tangedyn

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 04:04 AM

Anyone got the math on Rawr vs Mew? When I plug in the values into Rawr I get haste coming on top of crit raid buffed, however Mew is giving me crit over haste in raid buffs. Anyone have the numbers crunched or a reason as to why one is coming out different than the other?


Mew's maths and model has been peer-reviewed between Toskk, Yawning and myself. The Formulation and Simulation models are used to check against each other for consistency.

I have no idea about what's going on in Rawr.Cat's model. IIRC it back in WOTLK it was ported over from Toskk's model, but Toskk is definitely not maintaining Rawr.Cat, so someone else must have taken over maintenance of the Rawr.Cat model.




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