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[Balance] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul)


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#41 Lambach

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 08:26 AM

Ive heard of doing red last but never yellow last. What is the reasoning for that? It seems almost nonsensical.
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#42 Slippykins

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 08:40 AM

I just received my 4P bonus and it sims as a DPS loss over 2T12/2T13 by a very, very, very small margin (within the standard deviaton). Is 4P really worth absolutely nothing besides stat gain?


Our 4pc T13 is shocking. The best upgrade you can make, transition-wise, would be 4pc T12H to 4pc T13H. The only reason we get T13 4pc is for the stat upgrade, as you said. Also, what seems to be the best with 4pc is swapping Glyph of IS for Glyph of Starsurge, allowing us to get in a Starfall each Lunar eclipse.

Just curious what you guys are doing on Madness for killing bloods. My guild is killing Green -> Red -> Blue -> Yellow and we're having trouble burning the bloods down without the 20% buff. When they spawn we finish the Blistering Tentacles and then let the bloods full heal before we start on them. I'm in solar and put down mushrooms as the tank groups them and then burst followed by hurricane. Worth Sunfiring them or no?

Here's the damage taken from all our attempts - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Any suggestions other than leaving Blue buff up the longest?


We had big issues with killing bloods when we didn't leave Blue up the whole time. We managed to get them down with some heavy-AoE specs (feral kitty, hunter), and eventually got them down - then died to Cataclysm. Our platform order ended up being Green -> Red -> Yellow -> Blue. We wiped 4 times tonight, did a flawless 5th attempt and got him down easily. You have to remember the 20% damage buff isn't what really matters with the Blue buff, it's Spell Weaving, which does a huge amount of AoE damage to the bloods. We also prioritised the Blistering Tentacles, so some bloods ended up full healing, but that's not a big deal.

It's not really worth Sunfiring them I find. I do mushrooms, explode and then by the time I try to cast Hurricane the bloods are already dead. Otherwise, if you're doing that and they aren't dying it's not your fault.

Looking at your logs, since Wild Mushrooms are the biggest damage on the bloods (besides Spell Weaving), you're doing perfectly fine. Since the AoE damage from other people is comparatively lower, you might wanna consider leaving Blue up last. The Bolt is definitely survivable and heal-throughable if there's a raid wall up for when it hits.

#43 Devourer

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:34 AM

Well, I simmed 2P T13 as a DPS upgrade by about 300 DPS so I swapped. What is the DPS increase from having Starsurge Glyph given that we would only average 6 Starsurge a minute?

It sims at a 500 DPS loss.

How come when other classes look at their 2P or 4P, they go "Oh my god! That looks so good!" Balance look at their tier and have a negative reaction to what they see. Again, simming as one of the lowest DPS classes. I don't understand how Blizzard constantly overlooks us. (Mages go from Arcane top, to Fire top, Balance goes from like 6th worst, to 3rd worst.)

#44 nse360

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 10:41 AM

Ive heard of doing red last but never yellow last. What is the reasoning for that? It seems almost nonsensical.


We were 2 healing with a bad comp so our healer that tried to stay with the tank when the meteor hit was getting gibbed and we didn't have a spare external for him. Ideally we'd be doing Blue last.

#45 qae

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 04:02 PM

Regarding the bloods on Madness, I did some testing with the Spell Weaving proc (20k splash damage), and you shouldn't use Hurricane since it doesn't proc it.

Starfall will, as well as Mushrooms(basically doubling the explosion), and once that is done you can spamm Moonfire/Sunfire on the bloods to get spell weaving proc until they are dead (seems to proc on DoT as well as direct damage).


On a sidenote, Mind sear seems to provide a lot of Spell Weaving procs, so if you have trouble killing the bloods, ask your disc/holy priest to help!
Also, resto druids will get a nice Mushroom explosion as well.

#46 Slippykins

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:25 PM

Well, I simmed 2P T13 as a DPS upgrade by about 300 DPS so I swapped. What is the DPS increase from having Starsurge Glyph given that we would only average 6 Starsurge a minute?

It sims at a 500 DPS loss.

How come when other classes look at their 2P or 4P, they go "Oh my god! That looks so good!" Balance look at their tier and have a negative reaction to what they see. Again, simming as one of the lowest DPS classes. I don't understand how Blizzard constantly overlooks us. (Mages go from Arcane top, to Fire top, Balance goes from like 6th worst, to 3rd worst.)


What are you upgrading your 2p T13 from? When I do my WrathCalcing I'm upgrading 4pc T12 heroic (391s) to 4pc T13 normal (397s). The extra stats are marginal, but it would be interesting to see if 2pc T12H + 2pc T13 would be better.

I just tested a couple of scenarios. My base gear for this is T12H helm, chest, gloves, legs and T13 resto shoulders (31678 DPS).

Helm + Shoulders to T13 boomkin: 31098 DPS (580 DPS loss)
Helm + Chest to T13 boomkin: 31151 DPS (527 DPS loss)
Helm + Gloves to T13 boomkin: 31231 DPS (447 DPS loss)
Helm + Legs to T13 boomkin: 31493 DPS (185 DPS loss)

Considering it wont be very attainable for most to get the heroic T12 hat from Ragnaros, all other sims with pieces except the helm will sim lower because of the hat being 378. Helm + Legs looks like the best option, as the legs are Haste/Mastery and gets rid of that yuck Spirit/Crit T12 legs. Resto Shoulders are also Spirit/Mastery, but much better than the Crit boomkin option.

All in all, it's not that big of a loss (185 DPS), so it's really up to the boomkin whether they want to have 2pc T12H and 2pc T13 or 4pc T12H.


You have to make sure with Glyph of Starsurge you're setting up WrathCalcs correctly. If you're using MF/IS/Wrath Glyphs, you have to set "Starfall: On Cooldown", otherwise WrathCalcs will report inflated figures. Only if you're sporting Glyph of Starsurge and 4pc T13 can you set "Starfall: During Lunar", as Starfall should be available for each Lunar eclipse at that point. Using my BiS setup with DI, DPS with IS/MF/Wrath and "Starfall: On Cooldown" DPS shows as 50336. Swapping IS for Starsurge, and setting "Starfall: During Lunar" DPS jumps up to 50584. Really, this isn't that much of an increase, but it's still an increase. In-game, the Starsurge setup may be a little bit lower due to bloodlust pushing us faster than the CD, and we may not be able to line it up exactly all the time. The Wrath glyph is a static 10% damage increase, and basically will always do the maximum it can.

Unfortunately, our 4pc T13 is lackluster, like you said, and it'll be very hard for us to stay competitive in the top rankings once everyone else has their 4pc. Hopefully Blizzard does rectify our 4pc, but I doubt it.

#47 Zilulil

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 12:29 AM

We were 2 healing with a bad comp so our healer that tried to stay with the tank when the meteor hit was getting gibbed and we didn't have a spare external for him. Ideally we'd be doing Blue last.


I'm confused as to why your healer is close enough to the meteor impact to take significant damage from it. You can easily reach the tank from all the way across the platform.

#48 nse360

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:19 AM

Yeah, was our first real night of attempts and I think we were overestimating the damage the meteor would do if he was close enough to still be in range of the tank - like I said, though, we'll probably just faceroll it with blue up from now on anyways.

#49 Devourer

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:34 AM

I was using simulationcraft. I have it set to Starfall only during Lunar, but not with DI buff. I had 2P T12 HGlove, NHelm, and 3P T13 NChest, NShoulders, LFRLeggings. I upped it to T13 NGloves for 4P and it was a very marginal DPS loss (3 DPS). I swap in Glyph of SS and it's a large DPS loss (500 DPS).

I would like to hear some people's ideas on how to make Balance more competitive. We have pretty much static DPS, with no amazing DPS CDs (like Demo opener or Mage opener or Hunter opener) and we have no execute. Unless they literally want to buff our static damage so that we're competitive, we need some burst CDs or an execute (probably both given that all classes I just listed have both). When the original T13 was the double eclipse Energy, I think I suggested SS count as always Eclipsed but I don't know how much of a DPS increase that would have been.

#50 Slippykins

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 09:25 PM

I was using simulationcraft. I have it set to Starfall only during Lunar, but not with DI buff. I had 2P T12 HGlove, NHelm, and 3P T13 NChest, NShoulders, LFRLeggings. I upped it to T13 NGloves for 4P and it was a very marginal DPS loss (3 DPS). I swap in Glyph of SS and it's a large DPS loss (500 DPS).

I would like to hear some people's ideas on how to make Balance more competitive. We have pretty much static DPS, with no amazing DPS CDs (like Demo opener or Mage opener or Hunter opener) and we have no execute. Unless they literally want to buff our static damage so that we're competitive, we need some burst CDs or an execute (probably both given that all classes I just listed have both). When the original T13 was the double eclipse Energy, I think I suggested SS count as always Eclipsed but I don't know how much of a DPS increase that would have been.


To be perfectly honest, I don't think we will be seeing any CDs of that sort until MoP, and even then that's subject to change. As far as what we have to go on now, we've got Incarnation, 30 seconds of double eclipse and half the time out of eclipse, and Celestial Alignment, which may or may not be a DPS CD. Incarnation will definitely be saved for a Bloodlust, so we have something to pop there other than a pot, and Celestial Alignment could be used at the end of that Incarnation to continue a faux eclipse throughout the duration of Bloodlust. However, from what we can gauge on the tooltip of CA, it seems as if it's rather unfinished - we don't know if we'll get both Moonfire and Sunfire simultaneously, or whether it even benefits from Mastery, since the tooltip specifically states 25% extra damage (there's other concerns, I just woke up though). If this is the case, it's rather lackluster and may not be as useful as we would have hoped. Also have to remember we'll be getting Symbiosis, and there's a good chance it will be highly beneficial to us (as long as you have the right raid comp :P).

#51 Thedave

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 11:41 PM

Guys, before this gets really off track and Carebear has to start gently reminding everyone that there's a separate Mists of Pandaria thread, we should probably keep the discussion here limited to what we have in 4.3.

Back on topic:

I would like to hear some people's ideas on how to make Balance more competitive.


The fight mechanics this tier actually work fairly well for balance druids. Even though this should be an obvious statement, you should always be thinking about how one of your abilities could jive with a particular fight mechanic. Just a few examples of what I've seen in Heroic DS so far:

  • H-Morchok: there's a huge amount of time where dps has to stop on the boss, so keep your DoTs rolling and use SR/Dash liberally. You'll most earn your raid spot with your DR and Barkskin for soaking, even if your dps is lower than you'd want it to be.
    .
  • H-Yorsah'j: Innervate a healer after the Mana Void comes out and your glyph will provide you immediate mana. Also, plan your Eclipse so that you'll be 1 cast away from hitting one when the Void comes out: instant 14k mana, where other casters will be hurting. Shrooms Black adds on CD, keep DoTs rolling on the boss at all times. Again, SR and Dash liberally.
    .
  • H-Zon'ozz: do I have to say "SR liberally" again? So many targets means that you'll be in heaven DoTing up all that you can. Preplanting shrooms on your side's tentacles also helps quite a bit.

The only fight I'm really concerned about for boomkin is H-Ultraxion... I'm not sure we can earn our raid spot on that fight in comparison to other classes, unless you're someone with Dragonwrath. Even then, though, I'd want someone who can stay down for an Hour.

#52 Fleuria

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:41 AM

If your in a 10man guild dps doesn't exactly matter so you will not lose your raid spot at all.

im pulling 36-38k consistently on heroic ultraxion 25 can push more had some random logs at 40k +

#53 nephyron

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:45 PM

Are you using Glyph of Insect Swarm at the same time as Starfall in Lunar only? Because without GoSS, you have to have Starfall on CD, as the cycle is too short to get Starfall every time otherwise. That looks to be inflating your figures.


Yes, I've created the bis list changing the pieces on the live import of my character and forgot to change the glyph >.<
that could be the cause, correcting it gives me 49295,89 DPS (BiS profile and not the 3101 breakpoint)
Is WC computing the real gain from using GoSS + 4t13 already ?

Just curious what you guys are doing on Madness for killing bloods. My guild is killing Green -> Red -> Blue -> Yellow and we're having trouble burning the bloods down without the 20% buff. When they spawn we finish the Blistering Tentacles and then let the bloods full heal before we start on them. I'm in solar and put down mushrooms as the tank groups them and then burst followed by hurricane. Worth Sunfiring them or no?

Here's the damage taken from all our attempts - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Any suggestions other than leaving Blue buff up the longest?


In my guild we follow the exact same order Green, Red, Blue, Yellow. On the last platform we ignore the blood, tank it inside the nozdormu bubble and when the phase 2 begins we get back all the aspect's buffs and one-shot the blood(because spell weaving is back).

#54 Devourer

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:23 PM

You can double dot on H Morchok as well, as long as your group doesn't tank the two literally across the instance from each other (I've seen some vids like that). To be the best DPS at gimmick fights is not really something to be proud of, and dotting all the adds is best for your DPS but not necessarily the best to kill everything in a timely manner. H Morchok is the only exception because you have to kill both bosses and there is no DPS loss from padding your meters.

#55 Hidden

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:22 PM

You can double dot on H Morchok as well, as long as your group doesn't tank the two literally across the instance from each other (I've seen some vids like that). To be the best DPS at gimmick fights is not really something to be proud of, and dotting all the adds is best for your DPS but not necessarily the best to kill everything in a timely manner. H Morchok is the only exception because you have to kill both bosses and there is no DPS loss from padding your meters.


I'm not too sure what gimmick fights you're talking about but so far in 10HC:
Morchok: Good Moonkin fight in most cases but since it's easiest with 4 healers you can just spec Resto here and make it a breeze
Zon'ozz: Also healed here but ranged DoT classes with passive damage reductions (Warlocks, SPs, Moonkins) are awesome here to kill the tentacles quickly while keeping boss DPS up
Yor'sahj: If you do it like us and focus on yellow and green oozes in HC and you play well around blue oozes (don't kill mana void before next mana void/get 1 cast before eclipse so you can enter eclipse when drained and regain mana) you can really make use of multi-dotting and AoEing here to bring the faceless ones down as fast as possible (they hit fairly high in HC)
Hagara: DoT classes, again, are really strong for the frost phase and damage reductions (Moonkin Form + Barkskin) help you to avoid random deaths to Shattered Ice
Ultraxion: Moonkin isn't that strong here but I was still able to hold my weight with ~39.5k DPS in only 4.2 + BoE / VP gear - however this is definitely the fight where Moonkins are really lacking, both in utility and DPS
Blackhorn: Haven't killed him yet but another fight that favors DoT classes and passive damage reductions

In all these cases, multi-DoTing is actually beneficial to the raid and not just DPS padding.

#56 Mogurii

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:51 PM

Faerra, that Ultraxion log is supremely impressive. Are there any tricks that you are focusing on as far as your ability to keep NG uptime as high as you have it?

I do not have DW, nor will I ever, and I don't raid with a lock so no DI either. I was able to get about 66% NG uptime this lockout and pulled 31.5k in ~386 ilvl. I focused more on NG and a lot less on dots, but still maintained about a 93% uptime for both IS and Mf/Snf.

Is it just he ability to run through cycles so much faster with DW/DI that is helping to accomplish your figures?

#57 Grendelle

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:51 PM

Just wanted to add:

I found to specing into Lunar Shower to be a nice DPS increase on Heroic Hagarra. (Ice Phase)

#58 Hidden

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 01:41 AM

Faerra, that Ultraxion log is supremely impressive. Are there any tricks that you are focusing on as far as your ability to keep NG uptime as high as you have it?

I do not have DW, nor will I ever, and I don't raid with a lock so no DI either. I was able to get about 66% NG uptime this lockout and pulled 31.5k in ~386 ilvl. I focused more on NG and a lot less on dots, but still maintained about a 93% uptime for both IS and Mf/Snf.

Is it just he ability to run through cycles so much faster with DW/DI that is helping to accomplish your figures?


I soaked the first HoT together with our Feral tank using his 4pcT13 and my Moonkin Form + Barkskin + 6% spell damage reduction, otherwise I used a fairly conservative rotation so my DoTs wouldn't run out during HoT/Fading Light and obviously I tried to get as many casts off as possible before using the button.
Last time we did Baleroc I had ~42.5k DPS there so the fight mechanics of Ultraxion still costed me ~3k DPS.

Ultraxion is definitely the single fight where I'd bench a Moonkin in favor of almost any other DPS spec because only few specs have less DPS or less utility.

#59 Larron

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:14 AM

Helloes fellow Boomkins and Theroycrafters. I've came to a brickwall where I can't decide whats better. I've came to the problem to decide between 3 trinkets. Larron @ Earthen Ring - Game - World of Warcraft, I'll not have DI nor FM in my raid comp. The trinkets it stands between is VPLC and Insignia of the Corrupted Mind(LFR). I've been running two 18 million dmg tests to Dummys and they both seems equal. Personally, I felt like the VPLC was less rng due to more frequently procs, it felt more stable. While the IotCM could proc just when I'm running towards a globule for example. But yeah, theorywise, which one would perform better? I also have DMC:V, but since I won't break any haste breakpoints with it, I'm assuming both of those are better yeah?

Sorry if this question have been asked in the old thread, but I couldn't find it.

Also, for Yor'sahj heroic, do you guys have any tips to up your dps there? I mean, is it worth solar cleaving the Forgotten Ones (Without LS)? Or will the GCD's just eat my dps due to not enough ticks?

#60 Hidden

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:19 AM

Helloes fellow Boomkins and Theroycrafters. I've came to a brickwall where I can't decide whats better. I've came to the problem to decide between 3 trinkets. Larron @ Earthen Ring - Game - World of Warcraft, I'll not have DI nor FM in my raid comp. The trinkets it stands between is VPLC and Insignia of the Corrupted Mind(LFR). I've been running two 18 million dmg tests to Dummys and they both seems equal. Personally, I felt like the VPLC was less rng due to more frequently procs, it felt more stable. While the IotCM could proc just when I'm running towards a globule for example. But yeah, theorywise, which one would perform better? I also have DMC:V, but since I won't break any haste breakpoints with it, I'm assuming both of those are better yeah?

Sorry if this question have been asked in the old thread, but I couldn't find it.

Also, for Yor'sahj heroic, do you guys have any tips to up your dps there? I mean, is it worth solar cleaving the Forgotten Ones (Without LS)? Or will the GCD's just eat my dps due to not enough ticks?


Got these results using my own profile (~390 iLevel, 4t12, DTR, DI, 780 int dummy trinket as second trinket) but those shouldn't change much for most trinkets; in case you want to have data for any specific gear setup that's vastly different from the one used, I can quickly run a simulation for that one as well.
Simulationcraft Results

Since I was mixing up the two DS trinkets in my initial post so I'm just going to edit that part out and leave the simulationcraft results as an answer. The list posted isn't necessarily a reply to the quoted post but a list for general usage.

As for Yor'sahj:
Just do your standard single target rotation, if you see a black ooze spawning and your raid is going to let it through, cast until your next solar eclipse and solar cleave until they're down. If you're going to let a blue ooze through without exploiting the mana void, make sure to DoT the mana void up while it's floating above Yor'Sahj when he's draining mana and do one of the following:
a) Innervate yourself after he stopped draining
B) Cast until one spell before Eclipse before he drains mana and enter Eclipse with the first spell after he finishes draining mana so you get back enough mana through Euphoria
c) Use a mana potion as last resort

Also make sure to drop down mushrooms while moving back to the boss in both cases, they save you GCDs when you could be DoTing the Forgotten Ones and you have a good chance to proc a clearcast at no mana cost when you've been drained.




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