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Demonology in Cataclysm (4.3 Release)


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#1 Jmickey

Jmickey

    Von Kaiser

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:46 AM

=Introduction=
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the theory-crafting behind the Demonology warlock. This thread is targeted at serious raiders. If you've got interesting/complex questions regarding Destruction, please ask them here. If you have very basic questions or alike, please use the "Simple Questions/Answers" thread in the stickies instead.

==Raid Performance==

With the release of Patch 4.3 the warlock class sees a number of changes, in particular the Destruction spec, along with a few changes to the Demonology spec. Following these changes we see that all 3 specs are quite close, and all have something to bring to the table. For single target DPS, the following should be true at all gear levels:

[TABLE]Demonology |>| Destruction |>=| Affliction[/TABLE]


While Demonology does pull ahead in single target DPS by ~2k DPS, this is only in close to perfect conditions where there is minimal to no movement and the player is able to stand in melee range. This means that in most situations Destruction and Affliction will perform better than Demonology.

On multi-target fights with strictly 2 DPS targets Affliction and Destruction should be quite even. However once any additional targets are introduced Affliction will perform considerably better than Destruction. Heavy AoE fights are where Demonology really begins to shine, followed respectably by Affliction and then Destruction behind by a considerable margin.

==FAQ==
Q: Is there a haste cap?
A: Technically, there are multiple. See the Mechanics: Haste section of this guide for more information.

Q: Should I use the Infernal or Doomguard?
A: Doomguard for Single Target, Infernal for AoE.

Q: I changed my spec, and on a training dummy my new spec gives me more DPS!
A: What you do on a training dummy is irrelevant. Not only is your sample data far too small to rule out RNG, you're also missing lots of buffs/target debuffs that will change the way certain talents perform.

Q: I asked a question / Made a suggestion, why didn't you answer or respond to it?
A: On ElitistJerks it is policy that people who respond to stupid or very basic questions receive infractions along with the person who received the initial infraction. If you had a question and I didn't respond to it, I was probably avoiding infraction points.

==Abbreviations==

[TABLE="head"]Abbreviation | Meaning
Afflic | Affliction
AoE | Area of Effect
BiS | Best in Slot
BoA | Bane of Agony
BoD | Bane of Doom
BoH | Bane of Havoc
CD | Cooldown
CoE | Curse of the Elements
Corr | Corruption
Crit | Critical Strike Rating
Demo | Demonology
Destro | Destruction
DPET | Damage per execute time
FG | Felguard
GCD | Global Cooldown
HoG | Hand of Gul'dan
ICD | Internal Cooldown
Immo | Immolate
Imp SF | Improved Soul Fire
Incin | Incinerate
Int | Intellect
LT | Lifetap
Meta | Metamorphosis
RNG | Random Number Generator
SB | Shadow Bolt
SP | Spellpower[/TABLE]


=Talents=

==The Spec==

Demonology has 2 possible specs:

3/31/7


This spec is designed for purely single target fights. Information in this thread that is labelled "Single Target" is used alongside this spec.

0/31/10


This spec is designed for fights with multiple targets, where multi-dotting is required. Information in this thread that is labelled "Multi-target" is used alongside this spec.

==Talents==
Demonology

[TABLE="head"]Tier | Talent | Notes | Recommendation
1 | Demonic Embrace | Additional stamina | Optional
1 | Dark Arts | Increases Felguard damage | Required
1 | Fel Synergy | Passively heals demon | Optional
2 | Demonic Rebirth | Demon "battle rez" | Optional
2 | Mana Feed | Provides significant mana regen | Required
2 | Demonic Aegis | Increase self healing | Optional
2 | Master Summoner | Reduces demon cast time and mana cost | Optional
3 | Impending Doom | Chance to reduce Meta CD and increase chance to summon a Ebon Imp with BoD | Required
3 | Demonic Empowerment | Demon "Trinket" | Optional
3 | Improved Health Funnel | Increases demon healing with health funnel | Optional
4 | Molten Core | Chance to gain 3 Incinerates at 30% reduced cast time | Required
4 | Hand of Gul'dan | Hard nuke and increases demon crit strike | Required
4 | Aura of Foreboding | Stuns enemies hit by HoG | Optional
5 | Ancient Grimlore | Increases guardian duration | Required
5 | Inferno | Allows Hellfire to be channelled while moving and increase Immolate duration by 6 seconds | Required
5 | Decimation | Reduces cast time on soul fire by 40% on targets below or at 25% HP | Required
6 | Cremation | Increases Hellfire damage and allows HoG to refresh Immolate | Required
6 | Demonic Pact | Increase raid/party member’s spellpower by 10% | Required
7 | Metamorphosis | Huge DPS cooldown, transforms you into a demon | Required[/TABLE]


Destruction

[TABLE="head"]Tier | Talent | Notes | Recommendation
1 | Bane | Reduces cast time on Shadow Bolt and Immolate | Required (Multi-target)
1 | Shadow and Flame | Increases Shadow Bolt damage and allows you to inflict the 5% crit debuff | Required
1 | Improved Immolate | Significant increase to Immolates damage | Required
2 | Emberstorm | Reduces Soul Fire and Incinerate cast time | Required[/TABLE]


Affliction

[TABLE="head"]Tier | Talent | Notes | Recommendation
1 | Improved Corruption | Increase Corruption damage | Required (Single Target)[/TABLE]


==Glyphs==
Prime Glyphs:

  • - Muti-target Fights
  • - Single Target Fights

Major Glyphs:

  • - Multi-Target Fights
  • Individual's Choice

Recommendations:

  • - 5% increased damage reduction through Soul Link.
  • - Since the change to Soulstone, making it a Battle Rez, this glyph will resurrect the targets of your soulstone with a total of 70% HP.


Minor Glyphs:

  • Individual's Choice
  • Individual's Choice
  • Individual's Choice

=Demon Choice=

Single Target
Currently, the Felhunter is the highest single target DPS demon.

AoE
The Felguard should still be used in AoE situations.

=Stats & Gearing=
==Stats==
Intellect:

Intellect now converts to Spell Damage, which makes all spells stronger. A number of factors determine how much benefit they receive, such as the spell co-efficients and talents. However, all spells benefit in some way.

1 Intellect provides 1 spellpower (before bonuses) and 0.00154% crit, as well as 17.53 mana.

Hit Rating:

102.45 hit rating increase your chance to hit with spells by 1% until Hit Cap (17% or 1742 Rating). Once the cap has been reached Hit becomes useless.

Haste Rating:

128.05 haste rating gives 1% spell haste. Haste rating scales multiplicatively with other sources of haste. Haste cannot reduce the duration of the global cooldown below 1.0 second.

To calculate the 'new' cast time of a spell, use the following formula:

[TABLE]New.Cast.Time |=| Normal.Cast.Time / ((1 + (Haste.Rating / 12805)) * 5%.Aura * Dark.Intent)[/TABLE]


Where 5%.Aura = 1.05 and Dark.Intent = 1.03.

Example, if we take a 2.5 second Normal.Cast.Time and a 950 Haste.Rating, we will get the following:

[TABLE]New.Cast.Time |=| 2.5 / ((1 + (950 / 12805)) * 1.05 * 1.03) = 2.152 sec[/TABLE]


Due to the changes to DoTs introduced in 4.0.1 haste has become a much more advanced stat. See the Mechanics: Haste section for more information.

Critical Strike Rating:

179.28 crit rating gives 1% to crit. With a Burning Shadowspirit Diamond, crits will do 2.06 times the damage of normal hits. Due to changes made to DoTs in 4.0.1, all DoTs can now crit innately.

Mastery Rating:

179.28 mastery provides a 2.3% increase to the damage our demons do, as well as the damage we do while under the effect of Metamorphosis.

==Stat Priorities==
It is recommended you download the Simulationcraft tool and base your decisions around your individual character. For example if you are using with heroic Firelands gear, it's quite likely Haste will be lower than Crit. However, the below order should be correct in most situations.

Lower (iLvl 359 - 378) Gear Levels

[TABLE]Int |=| Hit (to cap) |>| SP |>| Haste (1007 Rating) |>| Mastery |>| Haste |>=| Crit[/TABLE]


Mid (iLvl 378 - 397) Gear Levels

[TABLE]Int |=| Hit (to cap) |>| SP |>| Haste (1573 Rating) |>| Mastery |>| Haste |>=| Crit[/TABLE]


Higher (iLvl 397+) Gear levels

[TABLE]Int |=| Hit (to cap) |>| SP |>| Haste (1993 Rating) |>| Mastery |>| Haste |>=| Crit[/TABLE]


Some notes on stat weights:

The importance of haste thresholds is much lower (almost negligible) on single target fights. Instead these thresholds are much more important in situations with 2 or more targets and you can multi-dot.

In most cases you will begin to reach these thresholds automatically as you gear up (in full BiS 410 gear you will have over 2000 unreforgable haste). In a Patchwerk encounter my recommendation would be to reforge for full mastery and ignore these thresholds, and as always, sim your specific gear config using simulationcraft!

==Reforging==
Reforging allows you to exchange 40% of a combat rating already on an item and converts it into a combat rating not already on an item. Example: If an item has Crit, you cannot add more Crit. If it has no Crit then you could reforge 40% of another rating (Haste, Hit, or Mastery) into Crit. An item with 100 Hit and no Crit could be reforged to 60 Hit and 40 Crit.

Reforging is essentially following the stat priority rules above to reach certain caps and maximize the benefit we recieve from secondary stats. For example, for the stat priorities in iLvl 378+ gear, we do the following (in order):

1. Reforge crit then mastery to hit until cap, getting as close to 1742 as possible.

2. Reforge crit then mastery to haste until 1993 rating, getting as close as possible without going under.

3. Reforge left over stats to mastery, including any hit or haste over the mentioned caps.


It is important to note that optimizing your reforging may involve reforging away from haste or hit on gear to get as close as possible to the cap (without going under). It is recommended you use a tools such as WoWReforge to assist you.

==Gemming==

[TABLE]Meta: | |
Red: | |
Yellow: | |
Blue: | | [/TABLE]



When to ignore the socket bonus

As a general rule of thumb, if the socket bonus is less than 20 Int or 30 of any rating stat, then it would be better to ignore the bonus and gem /. However, to be more accurate you would need to find the relevant scale factors for your individual gear setup (Using Simulationcraft) and multiply those scale factors by the stats you would gain with either gem.

==Set Bonuses==

[TABLE="head"]Bonus | Description
2pc | The duration of your Doomguard and Infernal summons is increased by 20 sec and the cooldown of those spells is reduced by 4 min.
4pc | Soulburn grants a 10% increase to your spell power for 10 sec, and Soul Fire cast with Soulburn active now grants a Soul Shard.[/TABLE]



2pc - The 2 peice bonus is a ~4% DPS increase, dependent on fight time.
4pc - The 4 piece bonus is a ~2.5% DPS increase if used on CD.

==Best in Slot==

Normal BiS No Legendary

[TABLE="head"]Slot | Item | Gemming | Reforging
Head | | 1x Burning, 1x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Neck | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Shoulders | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Back | | 1x 40 Int | N/A
Chest | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Mastery
Wrists | | 2x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Hands | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Waist | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Hit | Crit > Hit
Legs | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Hit
Feets | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Ring 1 | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Ring 2 | | 1x 40 Int | Crit > Mastery
Trinket 1 | | N/A | N/A
Trinket 2 | | N/A | N/A
Wand | | N/A | N/A
Weapon | | 1x 40 Int | N/A
[/TABLE]


Normal BiS with Legendary

[TABLE="head"]Slot | Item | Gemming | Reforging
Head | | 1x Burning, 1x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Neck | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Shoulders | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Back | | 1x 40 Int | N/A
Chest | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Mastery
Wrists | | 2x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Hands | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Waist | | 3x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Legs | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Hit
Feets | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Ring 1 | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Ring 2 | | 1x 40 Int | Crit > Mastery
Trinket 1 | | N/A | N/A
Trinket 2 | | N/A | N/A
Wand | | N/A | N/A
Weapon | | 3x 40 Int | N/A
[/TABLE]


Heroic BiS No Legendary

[TABLE="head"]Slot | Item | Gemming | Reforging
Head | | 1x Burning, 1x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Neck | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Shoulders | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Back | | 1x 40 Int | N/A
Chest | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Mastery
Wrists | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Hands | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Waist | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Hit | Crit > Hit
Legs | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Hit
Feets | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Mastery
Ring 1 | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Ring 2 | | 1x 40 Int | Crit > Mastery
Trinket 1 | | N/A | N/A
Trinket 2 | | N/A | N/A
Wand | | N/A | N/A
Weapon | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Mastery
[/TABLE]


Heroic BiS with Legendary

[TABLE="head"]Slot | Item | Gemming | Reforging
Head | | 1x Burning, 1x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Neck | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Shoulders | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Back | | 1x 40 Int | N/A
Chest | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Mastery
Wrists | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Hands | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Mastery
Waist | | 3x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Legs | | 2x 40 Int, 1x 20 Int 20 Mastery | Haste > Hit
Feets | | 2x 40 Int | Crit > Hit
Ring 1 | | 1x 40 Int | Haste > Hit
Ring 2 | | 1x 40 Int | Crit > Mastery
Trinket 1 | | N/A | N/A
Trinket 2 | | N/A | N/A
Wand | | N/A | Haste > Hit
Weapon | | 3x 40 Int | N/A
[/TABLE]


==Trinkets==

Coming Soon.

==Enchants==

[TABLE="head"]Slot | Enchant | Comments
Head | 60 Int/35 crit | - Guardians of Hyjal revered
Shoulders | 50 Int/25 haste | - Therazane exalted
Back | 50 Int |
Chest | 20 stats |
Wrists | 50 Int |
Gloves | 65 mastery |
Legs | 95 Int/80 Stam |
Boots | Run speed/35 mastery or 50 hit or 50 haste | / /
Belt | Extra socket |
Weapon | 500 Int Proc |
Offhand | 40 Int | [/TABLE]


==Professions==

[TABLE="head"]Name | Benefit
Engineering | Since patch 4.0.1, tinkers now stack with normal enchants. Synapse Springs tinker to gloves provides 480 Int for 10 seconds with a 60 second CD. This averages to an 80 Int bonus. Engineering also provides further perks such as . and Grounded Plasma Shield have a chance to fail and cause serious adverse effects, and are not reliable in a raid situation.

Leatherworking | 130 Int to bracers in place of 50 Int, giving an 80 Int bonus.

Jewelcrafting | 3 in place of 3 or gives 81 Int (51 Int over Epic Gems).

Blacksmithing | Extra sockets into wrists and gloves provides 2 additional Brilliant Inferno Ruby's or 2 Brilliant Queen's Garnet's, providing an 80/100 Int bonus.

Alchemy | Mixology, combined with provides an 80 Int bonus.

Enchanting | 40 Int to each ring provides an 80 Int bonus.

Inscription | 130 Int/25 haste shoulder enchant is an 80 Int bonus over the regular enchant.

Tailoring | Lightweave Embroidery gives 580 Int for 15 seconds on a 64 second ICD. This averages to 135.9 Int, which replaces the normal 50 Int enchant, providing only a 85.9 Int bonus. Tailoring currently gives the greatest DPS increase of all the professions.

Herbalism | Lifeblood is now a DPS cooldown providing 480 haste for 20 seconds on a 2 minute CD. This averages to an 80 haste bonus.

Skinning | 80 crit.

Mining | Stam, useless from a DPS perspective. [/TABLE]


==Consumables==

[TABLE]Flask: or a
Food: /
Potion: (Pre-pot and use during bloodlust/heroism)[/TABLE]


==Races==

In order of DPS increase.

===Alliance===

[TABLE]Worgen
Viciousness - Passive 1% crit.
Darkflight - 40% speed sprint for 10 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
Gnome
Expansive Mind - Increase mana pool by 5%.
Escape Artist - Escape the effects of any immobilization or movement speed reduction effect. 1.5 minute cooldown.
Human
Every Man for Himself - Removes all movement impairing effects and all effect which cause loss of control of your character. 2 minute cooldown.
Dwarf
Stoneform - Removes all poison, disease and bleed effects and reduces all damage taken by 10% for 8 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.[/TABLE]



===Horde===

[TABLE]Orc
Blood Fury - Increases spellpower by 584. Lasts 15 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
Command - Damage done by pets increased by 5%.
Hardiness - Reduces duration of stun effects by 15%.
Goblin
Time is Money - Passive 1% spell haste.
Rocket Jump - Activates your rocket belt to jump forward. 2 minute cooldown. Shares cooldown with Rocket Barrage.
Rocket Barrage - Launches your belt rockets at an enemy. 2 minute cooldown. Shares cooldown with Rocket Jump.
Troll
Berserking - Increases your casting speed by 20% for 10 seconds. 3 minute cooldown.
Da Voodoo Shuffle - Reduces the duration of all movement impairing effects by 15%.
Blood Elf
Arcane Torrent - Silence all enemies within 8 yards for 2 seconds and restores 6% mana. 2 minute cooldown.
Forsaken
Will of the Forsaken - Removes any Charm, Fear and Sleep effect. 2 minute cooldown. [/TABLE]


=Spell Rotations=

==Spell Priority==

===Basic===

Single Target Spec

[TABLE="head"]Spell | Condition
Soulburn | T13 4pc Set Bonus
Metamorphosis | -
Demon Soul | -
Immolation Aura | Metamorphosis
Immolate | -
Bane of Doom | If target will be alive atleast 15sec
Corruption | -
Shadowflame | Melee Range
Hand of Gul'dan | -
Incinerate | Molten Core
Soul Fire | Decimation
Incinerate | -[/TABLE]


Multi-target Spec

[TABLE="head"]Spell | Condition
Soulburn | T13 4pc Set Bonus
Metamorphosis | -
Demon Soul | Felguard
Immolation Aura | Metamorphosis
Immolate | -
Demon Soul | Felhunter
Bane of Doom | If target will be alive atleast 15sec
Corruption | -
Shadowflame | Melee Range
Hand of Gul'dan | -
Incinerate | Molten Core
Soul Fire | Decimation
Shadow Bolt | -[/TABLE]



===Explained===

The first thing to note is that when you enter an encounter you will want to have your Felguard out. Once the encounter begins and your Felguard is attacking the boss use Felstorm and Demon Soul. Once Felstorm has ended you will want to summon a Felhunter using Soulburn, unless the fight is an AoE heavy fight.

Demonology's primary concern is Metamorphosis. Generally Metamorphosis should be used on CD, unless you are delaying it so it can be used alongside trinkets such as . If you have the T13 set bonus Soulburn should be cast on cooldown, along with Soul Fire so the shard is replenished. Demon Soul should be used on cooldown.

Immolate and Corruption should have as close to 100% uptime as possible. This is also true for Bane of Doom, however this should only be cast if the target is going to live for more than 15 seconds.

Hand of Gul'dan should be used on cooldown. Incinerate should be used when Molten Core procs, even during Decimation. When the target reaches 25% HP Decimation will proc, Soul Fire will then become the filler spell.

If safe, Shadowflame should be used on cooldown while in melee range. However it is not worth running a long distance into melee range to do so. In addition Metamorphosis: Immolaton Aura should be used in melee wherever possible.

If all of the above is done, revert to Incinerate (Single Target) or Shadow Bolt (Multi-target) until a higher priority option becomes available.

==Cooldowns==

===Metamorphosis===

One of the changes made to Metamorphosis since 4.0.1 is the introduction of the Impending Doom talent. This means that our Metamorphosis ability will have an ever changing cooldown that will need to be closely monitored.

Currently, Sims are showing the possibility of this cooldown being as low as 85 seconds (Heroic T13). However the actual number will vary quite a bit depending on RNG, cast times (gear) and movement.

As a general rule, you want to be using this as often as possible (ie. on cooldown) to guarantee potential uptime isn't wasted. However, with good encounter knowledge, if you are safely able to line this up with important events such as bloodlust/heroism and Decimation then I would suggest doing so.

There are rare situations where Metamorphosis should be delayed, the most common of these being when used alongside the trinket .

====Meta and Mastery====

Mastery values are 'snapshotted' when Metamorphosis is cast, meaning that the damage increase provided by mastery does not change during Metamorphosis even if temporary mastery buffs wear off. This makes temporary mastery buffs provided through trinkets and items very powerful if they can be lined up with Metamorphosis. This is however, not always the case, so these trinkets/items should be tested and valued on an individual basis.

===Demon Soul===

Demon Soul: Felguard increases your spell haste by 15% and fire and shadow damage done by 10% for 20 seconds. This spell should generally be used on cooldown, and should be lined up with "On-Use" trinkets, trinket procs, bloodlust/heroism and potions as often as possible.

Demon Soul: Felhunter increases periodic shadow damage dealt by 20% for 20 seconds. As this spell only effects Bane of Doom and Corruption it's priority is much lower than that of the Felguard's Demon Soul. It is still recommended you stack this effect with that of trinkets/potion/bloodlust/heroism where possible.

===Doomguard===

Summon Doomguard summons a doomguard (guardian pet) to fight alongside you for 65 seconds on a 10 minute cooldown (95 seconds on a 6 minute cooldown with 2pc T13).

The doomguard scales with some of your stats, these being spellpower, mastery, hit and crit. Therefore timing your doomguard summon with trinket procs, enchant procs and potions is essential for maximizing its DPS. In most cases the best way to achieve this is to simply summon your doomguard ~10-12 seconds into the fight as all procs are off cooldown and available before the pull.

The doomguard does not scale with percentage based damage increases or haste.

==Dark Intent==

First and foremost, you should gauge the needs of your group. When learning raid fights or playing with undergeared healers, they should always come first. When you hit enrage timers or wipe because the boss has a burn phase you didn't complete, you should consider applying it to DPS classes. I'll leave this up to you.

===Healer Rankings===

[TABLE="head"]Rank | Class | Condition
1 | Restoration Druid | -
2 | Holy Priest | Raid Healing
3 | Restoration Shaman | -
4 | Holy Priest | Tank Healing
5 | Discipline Priest | -
6 | Holy Paladin | Glyph of the Long Word[/TABLE]


===DPS Rankings===

[TABLE="head"]Rank | Class
1 | Shadow Priest
2 | Fire Mage
3 | Balance Druid
4 | Elemental Shaman
5 | Frost Mage
6 | Arcane Mage
7 | Feral Druid
8 | Feral Druid (Hit Cap)
9 | Survival Hunter
10 | Retribution Paladin
11 | Combat Rogue
12 | Unholy DK (2H)
13 | Assassination Rogue
14 | Frost DK (2H)
15 | Marksman Hunter
16 | Beast Mastery Hunter
17 | Enhancement Shaman
18 | Frost DK (1H)
19 | Unholy DK (1H)[/TABLE]


===Personal Rankings===

[TABLE="head"]Rank | Class | Uptime
1 | Balance Druid | 99%
2 | Shadow Priest | 98%
3 | Survival Hunter | 98%
4 | Feral Druid | 95%
5 | Feral Druid (Hit Cap) | 93%
6 | Fire Mage | 88%
7 | Frost Mage | 82%
8 | Assassination Rogue | 76%
9 | Elemental Shaman | 74%
10 | Unholy DK (1H) | 72%
11 | Beast Mastery Hunter | 69%
12 | Combat Rogue | 66%
13 | Arcane Mage | 62%
14 | Unholy DK (2H) | 60%
15 | Marksman Hunter | 57%
16 | Enhancement Shaman | 55%
17 | Retribution Paladin | 46%
18 | Frost DK (2H) | 41%
19 | Frost DK (1H) | 40%[/TABLE]


==AoE and Multiple Targets==

The strong point for Demonology. In almost every AoE situation you will want to use Felguard Felstorm and Shadowflame. In situations where that is 6 or more targets then you will achieve the best results through channeling Hellfire. In situations with 5 or less targets then muti-dotting with Immolate and Corruption before channeling hellfire will yield greater results.

For more controlled multiple target damage, tab targeting non-cc'd mobs with Immolate and Corruption and then proceeding with a single target rotation on each mob until it is dead will be the most optimal way of dealing damage.

=Mechanics=

==Haste and DoTs==

With patch 4.0.1 the way DoTs work has changed. In addition to all DoTs now benefiting from haste innately, haste now reduces the time between ticks. Haste only reduces the DoTs duration until an extra tick is received.

As of 4.0.6, and the change to the Inferno talent reaching the haste "thresholds" for Immolate is no longer important. Attempting to achieve any of these thresholds will not provide any significant increase in DPS, however these values and how to calculate them are still good to know. Reaching the haste thresholds for Corru[tion does provide an increase and should generally be achieved.

This applies to all of our DoTs except BoD, however, the haste required to achieve this extra tick will differ between DoTs. To calculate the required haste to achieve an additional tick, we would need to calculate the time between ticks, specific to 3 decimal places.

[TABLE]Tick.Speed.Required |=| (Base.Frequency * Base.Tick.Speed) / (No.of.Ticks - 0.5)[/TABLE]

Where No.Of.Ticks is the number of ticks you would like to achieve. For example, if we wanted to apply this to Immolate (With Inferno, 7 sec Base Frequency, 3 sec Base Tick Speed), wanting to achieve 2 additional tick (9), we would do the following:

[TABLE]Tick.Speed.Required |=| (7 * 3) / (9 - 0.5) = 2.471 seconds[/TABLE]


From here, we can calculate the percentage of haste required to achieve this tick speed, using the following formula:

[TABLE]Haste.Percent |=| (Base.Tick.Speed / (Tick.Speed.Required + 0.00049999)) - 1 [/TABLE]

Therefore:

[TABLE]Haste.Percent |=| (3 / (2.471 + 0.00049999)) - 1 = 0.21432909[/TABLE]


So what haste rating should you be aiming for?

Well, Immolate (with Inferno) gains extra ticks at 7.161994%, 21.432909%, 35.715902% etc. So to determine the haste required in a raid situation, with all raid buffs including Dark Intent, we will use this formula:

[TABLE]Haste.Rating |=| ((Haste.Percent / 5%.Aura / Dark.Intent) - 1) * 12805.716[/TABLE]

For example, the haste required to gain 2 addition ticks (21.4% haste) is as follows:

[TABLE]Haste.Rating |=| ((1.21432909 / 1.05 / 1.03) - 1) * 12805.716 = 1573 rating[/TABLE]


Therefore, the haste thresholds are (raid buffed):

[TABLE="head"]Extra Ticks | % | Rating | Goblin
1 | 7.2% | 0 | 0
2 | 21.4% | 1573 | 1431
3 | 35.7% | 3264 | 3105
4 | 49.9% | 4951 | 4776[/TABLE]


Our other DoTs also benefit from gaining extra ticks. The haste thresholds for our other DoTs are below:

Corruption

[TABLE="head"]Extra Ticks | % | Rating | Goblin
1 | 8.3% | 21 | 0
2 | 25% | 1993 | 1846
3 | 41.7% | 3970 | 3804
4 | 58.4% | 5945 | 5745[/TABLE]


Shadowflame

[TABLE="head"]Extra Ticks | % | Rating | Goblin
1 | 16.7% | 1007 | 870
2 | 50% | 4954 | 4778
3 | 83.4% | 8911 | 8696
4 | 116.6% | 12838 | 12584[/TABLE]


==Other DoT Mechanics==

===DoTs, Buff and Debuffs===

Since 4.0 the basic rules for DoT behavior has changed. When a DoT is applied, the following rules are applied:

  • All player stats are "snapshotted," including all bonuses received through buffs and procs, and any losses to stats from debuffs. This means that the DoT will not benefit from any procs unless it is recast.
  • The DoTs damage will update with boss debuffs on a per tick basis. For example, if a DoT was applied to a boss before the 8% Spell Damage debuff was applied, and the 8% Spell Damage debuff was applied between the 2nd and 3rd tick, the 3rd tick will begin to benefit from the debuff immediately.

The only known case where the above is not true is with the 5% Crit Debuff (Shadow and Flame/Critical Mass). This debuff follows similar rules to that of player buffs.

As a general rule of thumb it is not recommended you recast a DoT early (i.e. clipping, with the exception of the information provided in the 'DoT Refreshing' section of this thread), even when you have additional procs that weren't present on the original cast. What this will effectively do is lower that DoTs overall DPET for that encounter despite the additional damage done due to the proc.

===DoT Refreshing===

Another change made to DoTs in 4.0 is how DoTs behave when being reapplied or refreshed. Basically if a DoT is refreshed between the 2nd last and last tick, the DoTs duration will be extended to include the last tick. For example:

Corruption (uneffected by haste) has a 18 second duration, dealing damage every 3 seconds (6 ticks). If you refresh Corruption at 16 seconds (2 seconds till the last tick) the new Corruption applied to the target will have a duration of 23 seconds and will tick 6 times.

What this means is that you can 'clip' a DoT without losing the last tick of that DoT (and the damage that last tick provides), making it much easier to have a 100% uptime on all DoTs. One thing to note is that if a DoT is refreshed using this method then the last tick inherits the stats of the new DoT (See 'DoTs, Buffs and Debuffs').

==Pet Twisting==

Under certain circumstances it is beneficial to routinely change your demon throughout the course of an encounter. This is called Pet Twisting. The only current circumstance is when you are using the trinket and delaying Metamorphosis to line up with this trinket.

The basic idea of this is as follows:

  • Open the fight with the Felguard and use it's Demon Soul + Felstorm, along with and Metamorphosis.
  • Soulburn a Felhunter once Felstorm has completed.
  • When has ~6 seconds left on it's cooldown begin to hard summon a Felguard.
  • Use the Felguard's Demon Soul and Felstorm, along with and Metamorphosis.
  • Soulburn a Felhunter once Felstorm has completed.

This continues until the fight is over, or until you have no soulshards left, in which case you will want to continue to use your Felhunter.

The reason we do this is because of the way the Felguard's Demon Soul stacks with Metamorphosis and .

=Other=
==Macros==

Suggestions Welcome.

==Tools==

Simulation Craft
An advanced raid simulator that can provide you with tons of valuable information, such as scale factors, damage per execution, uptime of procs, etc. You can change the spell priority system to see what works best, however by importing your character simulationcraft should have an optimized priority list ready for you (not always!).

World of Logs
World of Logs is a combat log analyzer which allows gamers to save, share and analyze their raiding experiences in World of Warcraft conveniently and thoroughly.

WoW Reforge
An easy to use reforge calculator designed to assist you in maximizing your stats through reforging. The calculator can work around hit caps, haste caps and can be editted with custom stat weights for your individual character.

DoT Haste Calculations Spreadsheet
A comprehensive spreadsheet detailing all DoT tick breakpoints. Provides numbers for every classes DoTs, includes breakpoints with Bloodlust/Heroism and as a Goblin.

DoTHaste Program by Acrimony
An easy to use program used to calculate DoT tick breakpoints. Provides numbers for every classes DoTs, includes breakpoints with Bloodlust/Heroism and as a Goblin.

==Add-ons==

Coming Soon.

==To Be Completed==

Gear: Best in Slot
Gear: Trinkets
Other: Add-ons
Other: Macros - Suggestions Welcome

==PTR/Imcoming Patch Changes==

Please do not post in this thread regarding PTR/Incoming Patch changes. The purpose of this thread is to discuss live mechanics only. Be assured that no incoming changes will be missed, and they will be heavily researched before going live. Should there be any relevant changes made, this thread will be updated the night of the patch, and not before.

Below are changes relevant to Demonology for all cataclysm major patches.

===Patch 4.3 Changes===

General

  • Shadow Bolt has a new spell effect.
  • Soul Fire now scales with 72.6% of spell power, up from 62.5%.
  • The Voidwalker ability Suffering now works like the hunter pet talent Taunt.

Demonology

  • Master Demonologist now grants a base bonus of 18.4% and 2.3% per mastery, up from 16% and 2% per mastery.
  • Impending Doom is now also activated by Soul Fire

Bug Fixes
  • Fixed a bug that caused Doomguard and Infernal to benefit dramatically more than intended from Demonology Mastery.

===Patch 4.2 Changes===

General

  • Soul Fire is now available at level 20, down from level 54.
  • Soul Harvest has a new spell effect.
  • It is no longer possible to leave combat while channeling Drain Soul.

===Patch 4.1 Changes===

General

  • Dark Intent: The friendly target of this ability now receives 1% (stacking 3 times to 3%) periodic spell damage and healing bonus instead of 3% (stacking 3 times to 9%). The casting Warlock still receives 3% (stacking 3 times to 9%).
  • Rain of Fire damage has been increased by 25%.
  • Seed of Corruption damage has been increased by 20%.
  • Soulstone can now be used in combat to resurrect a targeted dead player.

Demonology

  • Mana Feed now restores more mana (four times as much) when the warlock is using a Felguard or Felhunter.

Pets

  • Doomguard's damage has been increased by 50%. The Doomguard is intended to be the best guardian for single-target damage, and the Infernal the best when there are multiple targets.
  • Shadow Bite (Felhunter) damage and effect has doubled, and is now available at level 30, down from 42.

Bug Fixes

  • Imps summoned by Bane of Doom now benefit from the warlock's stats.

==Credit and Special Thanks==

[TABLE="head"]Name | Reason
Keldion | For his work on the DOT haste calculations spreadsheet.
The Simcraft Team | For their continuing hard work in creating such an excellent tool
Zakalwe | For his invaluable contribution to the warlock community
The EJ Warlock Community | For their contribution towards keeping the information in this thread as accurate as possible through intelligent discussion
Ushio | For being a sexy beast
Kitzie | For being awesome[/TABLE]


==Change Log==

- December 07, 2010:
Thread Posted

- December 11/12, 2010:
Fixed a few things

- December 21, 2010:
Added "Demon Choice" section, detailing the use of the Succubus.

- January 03, 2011:
Revised Advanced: Haste section with newly discovered information.

- January 8, 2011:
Updated Dark Intent section.

- January 23, 2011:
Demon of choice is once again the Felguard.

- February 8, 2011:
Updated for 4.0.6.

- Febuary 9, 2011:
Succubus crit issue fixed. Succubus confirmed as best Single Target pet.

- March 17, 2011:
Updated stat priorities.

- April 26, 2011:
Updated for 4.1.

- June 29, 2011:
Updated for 4.2

- July 16, 2011:
Updated Raid Performance
Updated Tailoring under 'Professions'
Glyph of Corruption over Glyph of Incinerate

- July 30, 2011:
Updated Metamorphosis section
Added WoWReforge to Tools section

- December 3, 2011:
Updated for 4.3
Added a number of new sections
Updated formatting

- December 4, 2001:
Added BiS Gear

==Feedback==

Feedback to this thread is appreciated. There is still much I would like to add (more than just what is in the "To be completed" section) and clarify and there might be a lot more that I have not thought of yet. Generally feedback should be posted within this thread (however please try keep posts in this thread discussion related), however if you feel that the feedback you have would be best suited for a private message, please do not hesitate to send me one.

If I have made a mistake, then a PM would be preferred over posting in this thread.


==Copyright==

This article is the original work of Jmickey (Caelestrasz-US) aided by contributors of the Elitist Jerks forums. Re-posting this article in full or in part is permitted under the following conditions:

* A direct link to the original article, and the name of the original author should be clearly stated.
* Content of this article should not be used for commercial purposes or profit.
* When (re-) posting this article or parts of this article, the same conditions should apply and should be noted.


For any further questions regarding displaying the contents of this article elsewhere, please send me a private message.

#2 Warlocomotif

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 09:08 AM

Perhaps you could add under advanced haste something along the lines of "At haste ratings close to, but below: 579, 2639 or 4698". Exactly how close is something you could fill out after further discussion.

PS. Excellent thread!
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

#3 Sephirah

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:36 PM

It has been proved that Glyph of Incinerate is actually better than Glyph of Corruption?
I've always seen the former used in every simcraft result, but it seems that the latter gives a slight dps increase.

Moreover, didn't the meta requirement change, requiring now more blue that red gems? A revert has been announced, but not confirmed yet. A way to to satisfy it should be to socket yellows with green gems () until
# > # + #

#4 nehcnhoj

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:06 AM

I might have this totally wrong, just got my first lock 1 - 85. Just wondering with keeping IMP SF up in our rotation, do you try to clip the last split second of the buff for the recast?

I find that if my next cast after this is SB / Incin / HoG due to lag it'll be off the buff and be a longer cast.

So the alternative I guess would be to time IMP SF such that we can still cast one of the above 3 spells during the last split second of the previous IMP SF buff?

I currently use the former, just some thoughts.

#5 Saufsoldat

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:46 PM

I might have this totally wrong, just got my first lock 1 - 85. Just wondering with keeping IMP SF up in our rotation, do you try to clip the last split second of the buff for the recast?

I find that if my next cast after this is SB / Incin / HoG due to lag it'll be off the buff and be a longer cast.

So the alternative I guess would be to time IMP SF such that we can still cast one of the above 3 spells during the last split second of the previous IMP SF buff?

I currently use the former, just some thoughts.


If you can time them perfectly, that's good, but usually it doesn't matter if you cast an Incinerate with 1.5s instead of 1.3s cast time every now and then. What's important is that you don't recast any dots while the buff is down, as they will then have the reduced haste for the entire duration, resulting in quite a substantial dmg loss (=one less tick).

#6 wormskull

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 03:54 PM

As a general rule, you want to be using this as often as possible. At the start of the fight and then on CD from then guarantees potential uptime isn't wasted, however, with good encounter knowledge, if you are safely able to line this up important events such as bloodlust/heroism and Decimation then I would suggest doing so.


I plan to hold Metamorphosis or Demon Soul (whichever comes off cooldown first) to cast the two together to maximise the benefits of stacking multipliers. Assuming your 100 seconds estimate is correct, that gives 136 seconds between each meta cast and 140 seconds between each Demon Soul cast. There's obviously going to be variability in the meta timings but these are looking close enough for me to think it should be a manageable strategy for many fights.

Even stripping out the stacking benefits of other multipliers and looking at Demon Soul and Meta in isolation sees a benefit when stacking over casting in series (rough, and using equivalence between haste% and damage%)

Demon Soul ( 1.1 * 1.15) = 1.265 or around a 26.5% damage increase over 20 seconds.
Meta plus base mastery ( 1.2 * 1.12 ) = 1.344 or around a 34.4% damage increase over 36 seconds.

If these are cast in series in a 56 second period, the benefit is additive - 20 * 1.265 + 36 * 1.344 = 82.39
82.39/56 = 1.47, a 47% dps increase over the time period

If these are stacked, the benefit is multiplicative - 20 * 1.265 * 1.344 + 16 * 1.344 + 20 = 87.2
87.2/56 = 1.56, a 56% dps increase over the time period

That's almost 20% increased effectiveness. Also, that's with zero mastery from gear (unlikely). I disagree that the general downer on mastery that simulated stat weights (which ignore the benefits of stacking) can provide will necessarily reflect the benefits that can be gained from it by anyone who plays smarter than a straight priority list.

I'd also add that we should make sure to hold our "last" Meta/DS combo for Decimate if in the last 2.5 minutes of a fight.

#7 Jmickey

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:08 AM

That's almost 20% increased effectiveness. Also, that's with zero mastery from gear (unlikely). I disagree that the general downer on mastery that simulated stat weights (which ignore the benefits of stacking) can provide will necessarily reflect the benefits that can be gained from it by anyone who plays smarter than a straight priority list.


I did make the assumption people would be trying to do this already, although now that you bring it up I will be work it into the OP.

The stat weights simulated for mastery are most probably closer than what you seem to think, even when you stack it with other cooldowns. It comes down to simply not having a high enough Meta uptime. If we look at a best case scenario of getting Meta to 100s on it CD (this on it's own would require good RNG), that is a total uptime of 36% over a 5 minute fight, which simply is not enough. If we wait to pop Meta with DS up like you suggest, this is even less overall uptime.

For mastery (in it's current state) to become a competetive stat for us, I would hazard a guess (a very rough guess) that Meta uptime would need to be 60%+, possible even higher.

#8 Scathbais

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 09:05 PM

Please note that Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond still needs "more blues than reds" to activate. Until Blizz comes out with a patch (blue posts said it won't be fixed until next patch) we will be using a different meta gem.

I agree with Wormskull that Meta uptime and stacking it with Demon Soul (and racials if applicable) is an important part of our dps and our damage in Meta benefits from Mastery. Meta uptime will be substantial (perhaps 30%) given meta glyph and Impending doom.

Jmickey rightly points out that 30% might not be enough to make Mastery worthwhile, but we need simcrafting including the multiplicative effects of stacking cool downs to really know for sure.

#9 Onorvele

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:54 PM

I plan to hold Metamorphosis or Demon Soul (whichever comes off cooldown first) to cast the two together to maximise the benefits of stacking multipliers.


I had given this some thought in the beta phase, but without taking into account either the Mastery bonus or the CD abbreviation thanks to BoD. I came to the conclusion that there are some fight durations where holding off will cost you the opportunity to use the Meta/DS combo, and I feel that this will remain true.

While this is increasingly likely the longer the fight (if you're waiting on average 10 sec with Meta on CD every cycle, for example), the impact of missing 1 chance to pop the combo is reduced by having popped it a growing number of times.

I'll not have a chance to run the simulation for another few days, but I think this could be pretty easily modeled.
Yes I know I am *way* over hit cap.

#10 daia

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 01:36 AM

Lightweave Embroidery is actually much much better than that.

The tooltip to create the item says 580 SP. The buff it gives you says 580 int. It gives you 580 int in practice.

The ICD is also only 45 seconds, with a very high chance to proc when it is off cooldown.

This averages out to ~193.3 Int, replacing the 50 int enchant, for a total of ~143.3 int. This makes tailoring by far the best profession for warlocks.

#11 Osakaa

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:27 AM

Not sure if this is just a brainfart, but how does a purple gem help at all for the metagem requirement? Doesn't the "fits blue and red" part pretty much negate the use completely?

I tried going by the rule of thumb mentioned in the OP, but Chaotic Spiritshadow Diamond wouldn't activate if I used purple gems for gem slots.

#12 Jmickey

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 04:47 AM

You are right about Lightweave Embroidery, I will update the OP, that will teach me to trust tooltips.

The Meta gem requirement mentioned in the OP is going on the assumption that blizzard will be patching it in the near future. In the mean time you will need to either use a different meta, or gem more green + purple gems than orange + red + purple.

#13 nehcnhoj

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 11:11 AM

If you can time them perfectly, that's good, but usually it doesn't matter if you cast an Incinerate with 1.5s instead of 1.3s cast time every now and then. What's important is that you don't recast any dots while the buff is down, as they will then have the reduced haste for the entire duration, resulting in quite a substantial dmg loss (=one less tick).


Yup, thanks. I just realised my latter suggestion is impossible. Imp SF buff does not refresh itself. It can only be reapplied once the previous one has finished. Just something new I found out. Doesn't affect much.

#14 Jmickey

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:51 AM

I'm curious as to why ShadowFlame is on the priority list. Wouldn't using Shadowflame result in a dps loss?

Also I think you might be under-valuing mastery by a little bit. Considering the uptime of Metamorphosis it would seem to me it's the strong stat besides hit and intellect.

Besides whats the point of using Shadow Bolt (besides the 5% crit debuff) if Incinerate is a faster cast with Emberstorm?


Shadowflame has become quite a good spell since 4.0.1. It's DPET is comparable to that of Corruption, and higher than all our nukes, including Hand of Gul'dan.

I did explain this breifly in an above post, and I hate repeating myself. It's simple, the value of mastery is any fight over 1 minute is lower than haste, and lower than crit after about 1.5 minutes. The percentage increase per point of mastery would need to be considerably better, or Meta uptime would need to be much higher. The damage increase to our pets is almost negligible.

Shadow Bolt has a higher DPET than Incinerate without MC up. I did a quick sim to get some numbers, in Pre-Raid blues/epics, taking into account inflation through MC, Shadow Bolt gave me a 8346 DPET and Incinerate a 8315 DPET (this includes MC procs throughout the fight, and is averaged out). This would mean a non-MC Incinerate would probably be 2000 or so DPET less than Shadow Bolt.

#15 nehcnhoj

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:24 AM

Shadowflame has become quite a good spell since 4.0.1. It's DPET is comparable to that of Corruption, and higher than all our nukes, including Hand of Gul'dan.

I did explain this breifly in an above post, and I hate repeating myself. It's simple, the value of mastery is any fight over 1 minute is lower than haste, and lower than crit after about 1.5 minutes. The percentage increase per point of mastery would need to be considerably better, or Meta uptime would need to be much higher. The damage increase to our pets is almost negligible.

Shadow Bolt has a higher DPET than Incinerate without MC up. I did a quick sim to get some numbers, in Pre-Raid blues/epics, taking into account inflation through MC, Shadow Bolt gave me a 8346 DPET and Incinerate a 8315 DPET (this includes MC procs throughout the fight, and is averaged out). This would mean a non-MC Incinerate would probably be 2000 or so DPET less than Shadow Bolt.


Nice to see the solid numbers behind it, appreciate it. Surprised to know that SB spam is even higher than averaged out Incinerate + MC'd Incinerate.

That aside, I was thinking, about how Crit & Mastery scale with haste. I doubt either of these stats will ever topple haste as the top priority at whatever gear levels (T12 and beyond). My point is, crit should be a linear scale proportionate to haste, mastery on the other hand, might be slightly exponential? My brain is telling me i'm flipped and my mental maths is wrong, anyone have better insight? (This whole stems from the fact that Demo is very much a multiplier's game it really gets quite complex when you factor in the fact that mastery increases the multiplier effect that demo gets from stacking CDs/Procs).

What i'm trying to say is, will haste ever reach a point where Mastery > Crit as the 3rd priority (after hit & haste). Of course this does not affect gemming / enchanting / reforging due to haste still being the 2nd best, It might affect gear choices though, "that 3rd stat that just happens to be on that piece of gear" etc etc.

Thoughts?

#16 wormskull

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 11:36 AM

Nice to see the solid numbers behind it, appreciate it. Surprised to know that SB spam is even higher than averaged out Incinerate + MC'd Incinerate.

That aside, I was thinking, about how Crit & Mastery scale with haste. I doubt either of these stats will ever topple haste as the top priority at whatever gear levels (T12 and beyond). My point is, crit should be a linear scale proportionate to haste, mastery on the other hand, might be slightly exponential? My brain is telling me i'm flipped and my mental maths is wrong, anyone have better insight? (This whole stems from the fact that Demo is very much a multiplier's game it really gets quite complex when you factor in the fact that mastery increases the multiplier effect that demo gets from stacking CDs/Procs).

What i'm trying to say is, will haste ever reach a point where Mastery > Crit as the 3rd priority (after hit & haste). Of course this does not affect gemming / enchanting / reforging due to haste still being the 2nd best, It might affect gear choices though, "that 3rd stat that just happens to be on that piece of gear" etc etc.

Thoughts?


My interest in this is probably more practical than theoretical, and five minutes of nuking Patchwerk doesn't really figure in my current plans. I think it would take "a lot" to get mastery competitive with crit against ol' patchy, but think there are any number of possible fight mechanics that lend themselves to periodic burn phases where mastery *might* be one of our best stats. It's beating my ability to model, and going to be hugely determined by environment, but I'm not sold on the idea that we should discount mastery for real-raid gearing to quite the extent the OP suggests.

On a similar note, logs from ICC show that changes to fight mechanics determine the relative value of glyph of incinerate vs glyph of felguard. For single target fights with little movement, Incinerate wins hands down, but once you factor in adds, movement or direct-dps inhibitors (e.g. unchained magic) there are a number of fights where the glyph of felguard becomes way better. I'm expecting this to be the case throughout Cata too, and plan on reglyphing between fights accordingly, which I believe is a more sensible course than a blanket dismissal of the glyph because it's not optimal against a certain abomination...

#17 VoidStar

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:42 AM

On a similar note, logs from ICC show that changes to fight mechanics determine the relative value of glyph of incinerate vs glyph of felguard. For single target fights with little movement, Incinerate wins hands down, but once you factor in adds, movement or direct-dps inhibitors (e.g. unchained magic) there are a number of fights where the glyph of felguard becomes way better. I'm expecting this to be the case throughout Cata too, and plan on reglyphing between fights accordingly, which I believe is a more sensible course than a blanket dismissal of the glyph because it's not optimal against a certain abomination...


I may be mis-reading you, but I'm not sure why you feel that adds might make the Glyph of Felguard better compared to Glyph of Incinerate, in fact they should make it worse. The damage of Legion Strike is split between its targets, so adding more targets makes absolutely no difference to the total damage it does, indeed it makes it somewhat worse when trying to burn down a single target in a group, while having multiple Immolates up gives you more Molten Core procs and thus a greater number of empowered Incinerates.

I've found that the deciding factor about which glyph is better is whether or not I manage to use all the Incinerate procs: as it's more or less "filler" it's one of the things that gets left out if other stuff is going on, wheras my Felguard manages to use Legion Strike on cooldown very successfully ;-)

#18 Jmickey

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:41 AM

My interest in this is probably more practical than theoretical, and five minutes of nuking Patchwerk doesn't really figure in my current plans. I think it would take "a lot" to get mastery competitive with crit against ol' patchy, but think there are any number of possible fight mechanics that lend themselves to periodic burn phases where mastery *might* be one of our best stats. It's beating my ability to model, and going to be hugely determined by environment, but I'm not sold on the idea that we should discount mastery for real-raid gearing to quite the extent the OP suggests.

On a similar note, logs from ICC show that changes to fight mechanics determine the relative value of glyph of incinerate vs glyph of felguard. For single target fights with little movement, Incinerate wins hands down, but once you factor in adds, movement or direct-dps inhibitors (e.g. unchained magic) there are a number of fights where the glyph of felguard becomes way better. I'm expecting this to be the case throughout Cata too, and plan on reglyphing between fights accordingly, which I believe is a more sensible course than a blanket dismissal of the glyph because it's not optimal against a certain abomination...


The scenario you speak of in your first paragraph would be rare, however, if there are fights like that in Cataclysm raid content it's unlikely they will be often enough to reforge on a fight by fight basis, not to mention the annoyance this will have on your raid team as you spend 10-15 minutes doing it while they wait.

I think you dismiss how little of an increase the Felguard glyph brings. Legion Strike contributes ~16% of the Felguards total damage throughout a fight, this is maybe 2.5% of out total damage done (possibly less). Incinerate is closer to about 6% (over 5 minutes). It is very rare you will miss an Incinerate proc, you would need to be unable to cast for ~12 seconds for any of the buff to be wasted (provided the buff is not overridden by another proc.

I would be happy to re-assess this if/when a fight comes along that shows evidence, through logs, that Felguard > Incinerate, and when that time does come, I will be sure to begin incorporating a section into the OP that will detail which fights you should glyph swap for. Without any actual evidence however, then further discussion would simply be hearsay.

#19 wormskull

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:46 PM

I may be mis-reading you, but I'm not sure why you feel that adds might make the Glyph of Felguard better compared to Glyph of Incinerate, in fact they should make it worse. The damage of Legion Strike is split between its targets, so adding more targets makes absolutely no difference to the total damage it does, indeed it makes it somewhat worse when trying to burn down a single target in a group


This is certainly implied by the tooltip, but it's not what I'm seeing happen. I've got no logs since cata, but this one from post 4.03a shows that while LS damage is reduced, it seems that only a portion of the damage is. Possibly the base weapon damage is applied to every target while only the bonus damage is split?

A couple of examples with a single target:

[23:39:18.814] The Lich King afflicted by Legion Strike from Thootom
[23:39:18.814] Thootom Legion Strike The Lich King *6656* (O: -1)
[23:39:24.794] The Lich King's Legion Strike fades

[23:40:22.617] The Lich King afflicted by Legion Strike from Thootom
[23:40:22.617] Thootom Legion Strike The Lich King 3298 (O: -1)
[23:40:28.628] The Lich King's Legion Strike fades

And with multiple targets:

[23:40:48.351] Shambling Horror afflicted by Legion Strike from Thootom
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Shambling Horror 1652 (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Drudge Ghoul *3580* (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Drudge Ghoul *3461* (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Drudge Ghoul *3936* (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Drudge Ghoul 2053 (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Drudge Ghoul 1766 (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Drudge Ghoul 1737 (O: -1)
[23:40:48.440] Thootom Legion Strike Shambling Horror 1977 (O: -1)
[23:40:53.710] Shambling Horror's Legion Strike fades

[23:42:17.091] Raging Spirit afflicted by Legion Strike from Thootom
[23:42:17.091] Thootom Legion Strike Val'kyr Shadowguard 2199 (O: -1)
[23:42:17.091] Thootom Legion Strike The Lich King 2219 (O: -1)
[23:42:17.091] Thootom Legion Strike Raging Spirit *3886* (O: -1)

Whatever is happening, it's not a simple division of damage.

I would be happy to re-assess this if/when a fight comes along that shows evidence, through logs, that Felguard > Incinerate, and when that time does come, I will be sure to begin incorporating a section into the OP that will detail which fights you should glyph swap for. Without any actual evidence however, then further discussion would simply be hearsay.


I noticed this when looking at logs for LK10.

My own log (this also happens to be the one with the best Incinerate damage, but the others are likely to drop off WOL soon)

1st in rankings.

2nd in rankings (LS doing almost twice the damage of incin here).

While it's not universal, it certainly seems to be a reasonably common occurrence - enough to make me check for it in future logs and reglyph if I see the same pattern again.

#20 arhmudo

arhmudo

    Glass Joe

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:58 PM

If you can time them perfectly, that's good, but usually it doesn't matter if you cast an Incinerate with 1.5s instead of 1.3s cast time every now and then. What's important is that you don't recast any dots while the buff is down, as they will then have the reduced haste for the entire duration, resulting in quite a substantial dmg loss (=one less tick).


I agree that it wouldn't be ideal to recast a dot if the buff is inactive, but I'm not sure what you said is entirely accurate. If damage over time spells are now calculated on each tick, then how why would they have reduced haste for the "entire duration"? Wouldn't the DPS loss apply only for the duration when the Improved Soul Fire buff is not active?




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