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Death Knight: Cataclysm Simple Q & A


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#21 Consider

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:06 AM

Question 1 and 3 are rhetorical, I would hope!

As far as number 2 goes, it's the same difference between a Power Word: Shield and, say, Icebound Fortitude. PW:S is, after all, 100% damage reduction... until the cap, just as NS is 100% healing reduction until its cap. IBF and MS, on the other hand, reduce damage/healing by a smaller percent, but continue to do so based off a specific period of time, as opposed to a specific amount of damage/healing taken. Now, yes, NS is arguably stronger than PW:S, just as IBF is definitely stronger than MS, but that's simply an issue of specific numbers. Mechanically, it's the same idea.

Although I'm not quite understanding what you're asking about number 4, one can use a PW:S comparison to respond to it as well. One can damage the health of a direct heal, but not the absorb of a shield. Of course, you can damage the shield just as you can heal the NS one, so I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but whatever issue people have with one, it exists for the other!

All of that isn't to say NS might not be too strong. Perhaps you shouldn't be able to stack it up, or maybe the coefficient needs to be nerfed. I, honestly, have no clue, but even if it is too potent at the moment, to claim it's akin to a 100% MS is just horrible logic. It's very, very similar to PW:S... you simply can't stack PW:S, while you can NS, which is likely the largest problem, if there is any, aside from the specific numbers.

#22 MikeMo

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:25 AM

Question 4 a is question about perception and not about stats/numbers. It would appear some people would prefer to see an HP bar go down when damage is incoming and then the HP bar go up when they use a heal. The absorb seems to throw people off and in the end I've talked with a few who are very upset with the NS absorb mechanic. I know this is not a forum that deals with perception and instead deals with hard numbers and facts but I find this topic interesting and worthy of posting anyway. I could be completely wrong though and end up with a ban in the morning too.

These players see their heals do nothing and do not make an immediate impact on the HP bar. Because of this they believe it's a 100% MS rather than see the stack as missing HP that needs missing HP.

I believe people are getting rather upset over the ability due to it causing a late death. They see a player at 20% HP and they blow their CD's to heal them up and instead of the player going to 50% like they expect they see the HP bar stay right where it was or even go lower. What they don't get is if those NS stacks were not there then a direct damage ability like ScS would have been used and the person would have been dead anyway. But due to the healers believing they have a chance at healing the person and not being able to do anything with it they become agitated with the mechanic.

Not to mention if they don't pay attention to NS stacks they can easily get behind. So if they don't treat NS like it's missing HP then it causes issues. I'm of the opinion if there was a mod that showed missing HP for an NS stack most healers who used it would suddenly stop having a ton of issues dealing with getting behind on NS stacks (or they would scream for the DK to be CC'd/peeled so the stack can fall off). Never mind the fact that the DK can be peeled and los'd until the stack falls off wasting most of the rune cost associated with the stack.

I do agree that NS needs tuning. I also agree that the stacks should be limited as there needs to be a cap. This not only prevents exploitation in certain situations where NS becomes incredibly powerful but also increases a DK's skill cap. They will have to recognize when to use NS and when to use ScS. However, this has no relevance ion regards to my questions as the absorb seemed to be the primary concern of the persons I spoke with and the reasons behind their issues with NS which appears to be a somewhat common mis-understanding of the mechanic. They are more upset with the ability absorbing their heals than how much it actually absorbs compared to the direct damage alternative (ScS).

#23 MikeMo

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:29 AM

I'll just make a new post since you edited your response after I was done with my own...and it's to late to re-write :)

They are rhetorical because the answer appears rather obvious to me, hence the setup. But when presented to other people I have had issues with their acceptance. Hence me asking how people would respond to others who do not seem to "get it" via numbers/scenarios that make more sense than what I am providing them. I was also wanting to double check to make sure that I am not completely off my rocker too. I am getting old and it is 3:30 AM where I live.

#24 nooneyouknow13

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:53 PM

Did Cataclysm adjust the amount of runic power generated by abilities? I was pretty shocked to see that Obliterate was generating 30 runic power while in Unholy Presence, as I was expecting 15-16.

#25 Flopi

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:45 AM

Did Cataclysm adjust the amount of runic power generated by abilities? I was pretty shocked to see that Obliterate was generating 30 runic power while in Unholy Presence, as I was expecting 15-16.


It was changed to generate 10RP per rune used. So Obliterate and CotG would indeed make 30 RP.

#26 nooneyouknow13

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:18 AM

It was changed to generate 10RP per rune used. So Obliterate and MotFW would indeed make 30 RP.


So Chill of the Grave adds 5 per rune used then?

#27 Flopi

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 04:38 PM

I remembered wrong and linked the wrong thing. Chill of the Grave adds 5/10 RP to Chains of Ice, Howling Blast, Icy Touch and Obliterate. Other abilities still give 10RP per rune.

#28 Eregdush

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 07:20 PM

I have but a simple question. Does the healing from deathstrike have a cap? I know that it at minimum heals you for 7% of your total health and heals you based on the damage you received in the 5 secs before you used it. If I was to be hit by lets say a raid bosses soft enrage like in throne of the four winds. Lets say it hits me for 90k, will I be healed for that exact amount or will I be healed for part of it?

#29 Charybdis

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 04:02 AM

There is no known cap on Death Strike's healing.

#30 Itual

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 07:18 AM

Yeah, about the only limit on DS's healing is the amount of damage you can survive- ie, your health combined with however much OTHER healing you recieve- you can potentially get more out of it if you have a healer healing you as you're taking ludicrous damage. Also note that absorbed damage does NOT count towards it, only damage taken after all mitigations.

#31 brashar

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 12:12 PM

DW Frost:
When killing machine procs, is it better to wait for runes to come of CD for oblit. or use FS if that ability is already up?

According to DocsDebugRunes it wants me to wait for Oblit, however it doesn't feel right just blood striking (or refreshing plague strike) waiting for Oblit to be ready.

#32 Kaejin

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 01:02 PM

If you're about to get an FU pair and you're not RP capped, hold onto it. KM has no ICD so it's not wise to hold onto it for too long, else you risk wasting a good one or two additional procs.
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

#33 tlai

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 03:07 PM

Using Kakories sim for dw frost, it seems like that in unholy presence i'm getting higher dps values than in frost presence. I have tried different sets of gear (including kahories gearset) and its still giving the same result which is contradictory to the frost guide. Am i doing something wrong?

#34 Vonriel

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 07:46 AM

I saw it mentioned in the Blood thread that Crimson Scourge is considered a weak talent, but no explanation was given, and was wondering if the general consensus is that it will remain weak, even after the change being made in 4.0.6?

Also, some clarification on why exactly it was weak would be nice. I assumed it was weak because blood boil is inferior to heart strike on fewer than 3 mobs, while on more, the pack wouldn't last long enough for you to need to reapply blood plague via plague strike in order to get the free blood boil and aoe threat*. So it boiled down to it essentially gave you a method of renewing Scarlet Plague without having to sacrifice a heart strike, which to me isn't worth two talent points, since, while you do lose threat to do so, even at the start you shouldn't have such a problem with threat that whatever you're tanking gets pulled off you because of it.

*I realized as I was typing this that you could accomodate a different approach to aoe tanking, in which you intentionally used your unholy runes to plague strike and thus get free uses of blood boil out of the talent, I simply left this part in for reference's sake as to what I was thinking.

#35 MKlades

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:02 PM

I saw it mentioned in the Blood thread that Crimson Scourge is considered a weak talent, but no explanation was given, and was wondering if the general consensus is that it will remain weak, even after the change being made in 4.0.6?


It's a weak talent because Blood Boil is a pretty weak ability. Stare at your threat meter while tanking sometime; DnD does a ton of threat, and even Death Strike does some decent AoE threat from the heal, while Blood Boil does... well, it's enough to keep something off the healer if DnD is cooling down. In it's current form, the talent is asking you to give up half of a Death Strike to get a free Blood Boil, and there's really no good reason to ever do that.

After the patch I can't see it being a much stronger talent. Better than now, sure, but if only because as it stands we'll be keeping BP up for the debuff in absence of anyone else providing it. I still don't see myself putting the points into Crimson Scourge even if I have 100% BP uptime.

*I realized as I was typing this that you could accomodate a different approach to aoe tanking, in which you intentionally used your unholy runes to plague strike and thus get free uses of blood boil out of the talent, I simply left this part in for reference's sake as to what I was thinking.


The problem with that is you're basically asking the mobs to eat your face, because if you're burning your unholy runes on free BBs you're not using Death Strike.

#36 Azraen

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 04:25 PM

It's a weak talent because Blood Boil is a pretty weak ability. Stare at your threat meter while tanking sometime; DnD does a ton of threat, and even Death Strike does some decent AoE threat from the heal, while Blood Boil does... well, it's enough to keep something off the healer if DnD is cooling down. In it's current form, the talent is asking you to give up half of a Death Strike to get a free Blood Boil, and there's really no good reason to ever do that.

The problem with that is you're basically asking the mobs to eat your face, because if you're burning your unholy runes on free BBs you're not using Death Strike.


I agree on it being a weak talent, but you forgot to mention that we still use bloodboil...just not for the damage, and not as often to justify 2 talent points to get it without rune cost.
We use it is to give the mobs / the boss Scarlet Fever, reducing their physical damage dealt by 10%
Scarlet Fever lasts for 30 seconds, and using 2 talent points to save 2 runes per minute is kind of silly.
Just adding this info to give a complete view on the matter.

#37 Securicor

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 11:21 AM

Death's Advance doesn't do anything to movement impairing effects. It simply caps the amount you can be slowed to your base move speed, much like how the paladin seal of justice prevents move speed from going above base move speed. The effects themselves aren't removed or prevented.


Hm okay thank you.

But this raises another question of mine ;)
What if someone places a slowing spell on me, and I then use both my unholy runes - will Death's advance overrule the slowing effect then, or will I have to last it out?

I'm sorry if my questions seem dumb, but I really want it right ;)

P.S. I'd like to know if someone could link a page or blog somewhere that posts statistics, comments and analystic material regarding Death Knight's andd the changes their going through in upcoming patches, thanks in advance.

#38 EwokChilli

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 04:58 PM

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#39 Oppoi

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 01:03 PM

There are a few things I'm still not sure about in my current DW-Frost rotation.
Some things that still leave me wondering, if I just pressed the correct button for the situation in question.

I'm sorry if any of those questions have already been answered in the Frost-Thread, but I did my best to pick up every bit of info I could.

1. Obviously pretty much all of you use Blood Tap on cooldown, so first Blood Tap for Pillar of Frost (I believe) and the second one to free up one rune for Obliterate.
I don't quite understand the mechanic though...I don't fell like gaining anything if I BT when, for example, all runes are on CD.
Fine, I'll free up one rune, but I still need to wait until another rune has come up and at that point probably another rune has come up as well and as there is no such thing as "half an Oblit", I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to keep the BT-CD for situations like Diseases are running out and all runes are on CD or KM procs and only one rune is up.

Tl;DR: How exactly do I use Blood Tap to gain maximum DPS from it's use?

2. What to do in the following scenario?

Both Death runes are up, as well as one Frost and one Unholy rune.

Do I Oblit until all runes are on CD, or shall I BS to put the Death rune back on CD?

Excuse me if the answers are so simple, that they simply didn't come to my mind because I was thinking to complicated and thanks in advance.

EDIT: Typo

#40 brashar

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 02:00 PM

I've read here and other boards, when KM is up waiting for Oblit is best over consuming the proc on a FS. However if BT is on CD how long is too long to wait? Is it better to just use frost strike if you know it is going to take a few seconds for runes to come off CD for Oblit use?

I'm sure most people have itchy trigger fingers and some KM frost strikes sneak out, so it seems important to me to know what to use KM on in this case.

If there is any empirical data out there to show that waiting for oblit is better then using FS when KM is up?

Edit: grammar




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