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[Cataclysm] - Survival Hunter


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#21 Sidis

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:20 PM

Please delete. I didn't see previous posts which make this redundant.

#22 Handa

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:53 PM

I very rarely have enough focus to use Arcane shot as focus dump. Not sure if others have higher haste.

#23 Tphirey

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:59 PM

I very rarely have enough focus to use Arcane shot as focus dump. Not sure if others have higher haste.


For SV it's not just haste that affects this but our crit too. I've noticed during rapidfire if I get a string of crits (which then partially refund the focus cost) I easily focus cap and have to sometimes use a string of arcane shots to keep from becoming focus capped. This seems to happen more during rapidfire, berserking or bloodlust where the combinations of crit proc from a trinket + haste buff leads to focus capping.

#24 Darklumiya

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:07 PM

I have tested kill command on a target dummy, yes I understand without raid buffs. Kill Command was doing half the damage as my arcane shot. I do not see how it would ever scale high enough even with raid buffs/debuffs versus arcane shot plus our mastery talent.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Notice he had 4 arcane shots for that fight, its very rare to have arcane shot as a focus dump outside of using it for lock and load. During that fight he had 7 lock and load procs. Its quite possible he prioritized BA over arcane shot during LnL procs or he had decided that he needed to regen his focus during LnL procs and fired cobra shot instead. It is the main reason why I am using the Serpent Sting glyph.


Even with kill command producing less damage than an Arcane Shot, it still would appear optimal to use it over arcane in the LnL proc when you are near focus cap, just because it doesn't waste the LnL proc on an Arcane Shot. KC is just there as a big focus dump, then allowing you to use the LnL procs on Explosives (ES>KC>ES>AS>ES).

In regards to the pet situation, I still find Ferocity to come up ahead of Cunning by about 23 dps in Zeherah's Analyzer. Also, at the standard current gear level of mostly heroic blues and a few epics, crit is still showing as a higher weight than haste according to my calculations on Zeherah's. Although, it seems that the haste weight is not set in stone at all, and changes drastically with simple changes to gear.

I also find myself using Arcane Shot enough in a fight to warrant AS Glyph over SS Glyph. 10-12 AS's in a 5 minute fight seems very standard, and you're most likely overcapping focus if you're producing much lower Arcanes than that.

What are the thoughts on BA before ES at the start of a fight? Getting black arrow up that much faster to provide LnL procs would seem most optimal. In that case, the opening rotation would look like (SS>BA>(Rapid Fire, Call of Wild, etc.)>ES>CS)

-Dark

#25 Neruse

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:17 PM

In regards to the pet situation, I still find Ferocity to come up ahead of Cunning by about 23 dps in Zeherah's Analyzer. Also, at the standard current gear level of mostly heroic blues and a few epics, crit is still showing as a higher weight than haste according to my calculations on Zeherah's. Although, it seems that the haste weight is not set in stone at all, and changes drastically with simple changes to gear.


I wonder what's causing ferocity to show as higher in FD than cunning for some, and the reverse order for others. At the 359 gear level it appears cunning is a few hundred dps higher but as I manually added stats using custom gear, ferocity started to pull ahead. Wild Hunt is a huge dps increase for pets and ferocity has lower uptime at our current gear level.

#26 Peldin

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:22 PM

Careful Aim - Recommended - Not very strong, but potentially better than some pet focus talents depending on pet focus regeneration.

I would argue that this talent is strong. It allows for extremely high damage for the first 1/5 of a boss fight. I was doing about 24k sustained dps for the first minute of the fight in Baradin's Hold (absolutely zero heroic gear, was wearing 2 green quest pieces and the rest was quest blues and normal 5-man blues).
From 100% to 80% your rotation is still the same except you do not fire arcane shot even if you are focus capped. You still continue to spam cobra shot. By using cooldowns during this first 20%, the damage for me was high enough that it kept me top on the meters for the rest of the fight, even ahead of other raid members who were in mostly heroic gear.

As for glyphs: arcane shot vs serpent sting... considering you do not fire arcane shot for the first 20% of the fight, the damage increase seems very lackluster. I would need to evaluate parses of boss fights and see how often arcane shot is even fired during a 5-min fight.

Also, I'm still earnestly looking for some theorycrafting on which stats have more value between crit, haste, and mastery. I'm sure every hunter out there wants to know which stat they should reforge out of.
If I had to guess, I would assume that there is a certain haste "softcap" we may want to reach for cobra shot cast time. Following that, perhaps mastery is our least favorable stat considering crit strike chance has synergy with certain talents AND increases our damage AND affects all our abilities/shots. Mastery doesn't have synergy with any talents nor does it affect a portion of our damage.

As for Pet Talents - I'm interested to know what other hunters use between Bloodthirsty, Boar's Speed, and Charge. I personally am using Bloodthirsty because I don't want my pet's happiness to drop during a fight because it's almost guaranteed that I won't notice it. Also, with Dash, Boar's Speed seems to be relatively useless in a raiding circumstance unless the boss is being moved a lot. Same with Charge, although it is the only ability of the three that actually contributes to a teeny bit more damage.

#27 Darklumiya

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:29 PM

I wonder what's causing ferocity to show as higher in FD than cunning for some, and the reverse order for others. At the 359 gear level it appears cunning is a few hundred dps higher but as I manually added stats using custom gear, ferocity started to pull ahead. Wild Hunt is a huge dps increase for pets and ferocity has lower uptime at our current gear level.


Didn't even notice it was you posting Neruse, long time no see! However, i'm not quite sure what's causing the differences, but I did notice that swapping from a ferocity to cunning pet drastically increased the stat weight of haste. Not sure if this is bugged, or i'm missing something here. Just double checked again, and now i'm getting a 48.7 dps loss switching from ferocity to cunning.

I would argue that this talent is strong. It allows for extremely high damage for the first 1/5 of a boss fight. I was doing about 24k sustained dps for the first minute of the fight in Baradin's Hold (absolutely zero heroic gear, was wearing 2 green quest pieces and the rest was quest blues and normal 5-man blues).
From 100% to 80% your rotation is still the same except you do not fire arcane shot even if you are focus capped. You still continue to spam cobra shot. By using cooldowns during this first 20%, the damage for me was high enough that it kept me top on the meters for the rest of the fight, even ahead of other raid members who were in mostly heroic gear.

As for glyphs: arcane shot vs serpent sting... considering you do not fire arcane shot for the first 20% of the fight, the damage increase seems very lackluster. I would need to evaluate parses of boss fights and see how often arcane shot is even fired during a 5-min fight.


Careful Aim seems to provide a solid dps increase instead of putting those two points in One with Nature. Also, I find even without using Arcane shot for the first twenty percent of the fight due to Careful Aim, you should still be outputting around 10 AS in an approximately 5 minute fight. This would appear to give AS Glyph the edge over SS Glyph.

-Dark

#28 aijlad

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:33 PM

Here's an issue I ran into yesterday and I'm wondering if anyone knows a good way to handle it. The situation was that I had Rapid Fire up and my trinket proc'd 1000+ haste just as LnL was proc'ing. I already had about 80 Focus as I was 1 second from getting Explosive Shot back up.

I could not find a way to reduce my Focus before hitting 100. Kill Command didn't have enough juice to stop me from getting back to 100 before the 2nd Explosive Shot and I'm about 95% certain that I got a Thrill of the Hunt proc on my first Arcane Shot after LnL dropped. There did not seem to be anything I could do to stop myself from Focus Capping.

Any thoughts on how to handle a situation like this aside from not having Haste proc trinkets?

#29 Neruse

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:44 PM

As for glyphs: arcane shot vs serpent sting... considering you do not fire arcane shot for the first 20% of the fight, the damage increase seems very lackluster. I would need to evaluate parses of boss fights and see how often arcane shot is even fired during a 5-min fight.

FD doesn't support the proposition that dropping Arcane during 100-80% is a dps gain. Cobra IS higher damage-per-cast above 80%, but without heroism it isn't higher damage-per-second.

#30 proxx

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:36 PM

Here's an issue I ran into yesterday and I'm wondering if anyone knows a good way to handle it. The situation was that I had Rapid Fire up and my trinket proc'd 1000+ haste just as LnL was proc'ing. I already had about 80 Focus as I was 1 second from getting Explosive Shot back up.

I could not find a way to reduce my Focus before hitting 100. Kill Command didn't have enough juice to stop me from getting back to 100 before the 2nd Explosive Shot and I'm about 95% certain that I got a Thrill of the Hunt proc on my first Arcane Shot after LnL dropped. There did not seem to be anything I could do to stop myself from Focus Capping.

Any thoughts on how to handle a situation like this aside from not having Haste proc trinkets?


There really isnt much you can do. If you get desperate to burn focus, BA is still on cooldown, KC doesnt cut the rapid focus gen, and LnL is proc'd so you dont want to hit arcane, pretty much the only other thing in your arsenal is a multi, which won't be much damage, even if both the multi and imp SS both crit. It may even be less damage than to just hit another cobra and suck it up that you'll be focus capped for that second or two.

For this kind of situation though, I'm staying away from haste-procs. For now, they just seem to create too many situations where you're either capping focus, and having to dump it on inefficient things like KC, rather than happening to proc just when you need them most. I would rather a proc that I always get the most out of (preferrably Agi proc, though will live with a mastery/crit proc in the interim).

As for pet talents, are people still noticing boss fights where the boss is being moved around enough that the pet isnt getting to attack all the time? If this is the case, Boars speed is going to wind up being a clear winner, letting it keep up with the boss and maximise uptime.

#31 Excalin

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:57 PM

As for pet talents, are people still noticing boss fights where the boss is being moved around enough that the pet isnt getting to attack all the time? If this is the case, Boars speed is going to wind up being a clear winner, letting it keep up with the boss and maximise uptime.


I have found myself quite Annoyed with trying to use Kill Command. Both with the distance between hunter and pet and the distance between pet and mob.

#32 Rivkah

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:01 PM

Didn't even notice it was you posting Neruse, long time no see! However, i'm not quite sure what's causing the differences, but I did notice that swapping from a ferocity to cunning pet drastically increased the stat weight of haste. Not sure if this is bugged, or i'm missing something here. Just double checked again, and now i'm getting a 48.7 dps loss switching from ferocity to cunning.


Ferocity vs cunning involves several factors that are probably related to the value swings people are seeing.
- Ferocity pet damage will go up as AP increases due to Call of the Wild (and the effect of Rabid further multiplying it)
- Cunning pet damage will vary significantly depending on your feeding frenzy settings
- Cunning pet damage may go up or down depending on how Roar of Recovery affects your shot breakdown. Shot simulations on the site are currently extremely sensitive to fluctuations in focus availability and occasionally your damage can even go down with extra focus due to the shift producing a less optimal end shot breakdown. I hope to improve on this over time but it'd difficult to compensate for
- Different crit values will have a significant impact on wild hunt uptime. Depending on where those crits get simulated they can also create small blips in damage due to how they affect if Sic'Em procs (Go for the Throat is averaged over the fight so it doesn't have this problem). This is probably a big factor in why crit values are bouncing around more than they should on the site. Adding in Owl's Focus complicates matters further as it can proc at the same time as Sic'Em or different times. At the moment the code assumes that if you use a pet basic attack it consumes both buffs if available. I'm not sure if this is actually how the behavior works though, so confirmation would be good. Since generally cunning pets run with 2 pts in wild hunt and ferocity 1 pt (due to the inability to sustain 2), the wild hunt uptime differences generated by crit can be significant

Also in respect to the arcane shot debate, currently the site doesn't simulate the bug where windfury and similar effects are actually reducing focus regen rather than increasing it. This means that you're actually getting less focus regen than is being simulated in game right now, which probably has a direct result on total arcane shots fired since almost all spare focus goes into arcane shots. I was hoping this would get fixed soon so I hadn't implemented the bug, but if it's not addressed in a few days I'm going to add some code to enable it so we can get more accurate simulations.

According to my math, if your simulated focus regen is about 5.11/sec, your actual regen should be about 4.22/sec in game right now until they fix the bug. In a 4 minute fight this amounts to a loss of 213.6 focus which is pretty considerable.

#33 Darklumiya

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:07 PM

FD doesn't support the proposition that dropping Arcane during 100-80% is a dps gain. Cobra IS higher damage-per-cast above 80%, but without heroism it isn't higher damage-per-second.


Wouldn't higher damage-per-cast translate over to more dps? Because your most likely going to be under haste effect at the start of the fight from rapid fire/berkserking/heroism, meaing CS's cast will be minimal. It only seems logical that dropping arcane would be the way to go.

-Dark

#34 aijlad

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:29 PM

For this kind of situation though, I'm staying away from haste-procs. For now, they just seem to create too many situations where you're either capping focus, and having to dump it on inefficient things like KC, rather than happening to proc just when you need them most. I would rather a proc that I always get the most out of (preferrably Agi proc, though will live with a mastery/crit proc in the interim).


That's what I'm thinking. I believe just getting static haste that gets your Cobra Shot to under 1.66 seconds cast time (not counting latency here) and then finding trinkets that proc agility or crit or even mastery would make it much easier to control the focus gains and deal with Lock and Load procs. It seems in a situation like I just described that Haste proc trinkets would end up not being used to their full potential.

#35 Nidal

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:12 PM

Also, I find even without using Arcane shot for the first twenty percent of the fight due to Careful Aim, you should still be outputting around 10 AS in an approximately 5 minute fight. This would appear to give AS Glyph the edge over SS Glyph.

-Dark


I've been torn between the AS and SS glyph as well, but I've decided on SS. Although the difference between the two seems almost negligible on single target in Zeherah's, you have to consider any fight with adds or time where SS will be ticking while the boss isn't being attacked directly. For example with the ratio of SS ticks to AS in a fight like Magmaw SS becomes a clear winner. Even in the worst case scenario, a flawless single target fight, it will only be ~40dps worse if the simulation is correct..

#36 Neruse

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:55 PM

Wouldn't higher damage-per-cast translate over to more dps? Because your most likely going to be under haste effect at the start of the fight from rapid fire/berkserking/heroism, meaing CS's cast will be minimal. It only seems logical that dropping arcane would be the way to go.

-Dark


Well, yes. If it is >80% and one has hero, then drop Arcane.

#37 Namarus

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 12:46 AM

Right now with the low haste provided by current gear I think it is better to stick with Serpent. Checking on FD I have around a 50 dps boost using arcane over serpent. However, serpent in my opinion is a little better because of how it helps with serpent spread via multi-shot.

On multi target fights, that 50 dps from arcane will in no way beat out the dps gain to serpent.

Relying on LNL for arcane shots to make the arcane glyph worth it, seems to be unreliable. With RNG you can have good or bad numbers of LNL procs. I would rather have a damage boost that will always be available.

However, as gear gets better, and crit rates increase I can easily see that arcane will make much more of a difference.

#38 Esoth

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 01:06 AM

For SV it's not just haste that affects this but our crit too. I've noticed during rapidfire if I get a string of crits (which then partially refund the focus cost) I easily focus cap and have to sometimes use a string of arcane shots to keep from becoming focus capped. This seems to happen more during rapidfire, berserking or bloodlust where the combinations of crit proc from a trinket + haste buff leads to focus capping.

If you're talking about Thrill of the Hunt, there doesn't seem to be a crit factor to it anymore, just a 15% chance on all of those particular shots. Haste will actually be what increases the value of this talent, when it increases the frequency of Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, and Arcane Shot. Either way, I agree that TotH causes some unexpected focus gains that warrant arcane shot dumping or could lead to focus capping. Especially in conjunction with Lock and Load, where you are not only spending no focus, but are potentially gaining TotH procs on top of your regular passive focus regeneration.

Unrelated question: Has anyone tested if our mastery affects non-hunter procs and abilities? For instance, the goblin rocket racial, , etc.

#39 Cinderglow

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:32 AM

Am I correct in understanding the way you presented stat vaules in that Hit > Agi > Crit > haste > mastery? I was under the impression that Mastery was our best (aside from agility) stat.
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#40 proxx

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 02:48 AM

Am I correct in understanding the way you presented stat vaules in that Hit > Agi > Crit > haste > mastery? I was under the impression that Mastery was our best (aside from agility) stat.


It appears to be much more complicated than that, or at least, at these gear levels it is. You don't need to prioritise hit over agi, as it is easy to get hit capped in places that don't compete with agi, so instead you're left comparing crit, haste, and mastery. How valuable each is seems to change in relation to the total amount of the other attributes.
As such, you have people out there stacking mastery + haste, people out there stacking Mastery + Crit, and people stacking Crit + haste coming out to very similar numbers. That doesnt mean you can just put the points out willy nilly and achieve good results though.

As the gear levels rise, things will hopefully become a bit clearer.




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